Fire Extinguisher question for 38'

janice142 said:

I have two problems regarding fire extinguishers.

#1) the plastic strap that holds the unit to the bulkhead I cannot loosen without a pair of vise grips and a Serious tug. I solved that with a string and a bow (picture shoe laces)



#2) some of the larger units I cannot hold/pick up. That's why I have the medium size units. Aboard Seaweed I have five and each is checked on the first of the month.

If you're lucky enough to have a woman please make sure the ones you have are something your lady can handle. My hands are not large and I've not got a lot of strength so I compensated by having a few more than the minimum mandated.

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Janice, instead of a shoelace if you ever want to....I always grab life jackets that get tossed and cut the buckle straps off them...a million uses...

One is to secure my 5 lb Home Depot extinguisher , I just cut the buckle strap sort enough and drive a screw with a washer into the bulkhead behind the extinguisher to secure it...may get less of a look thn a shoelace in a bow by the boarding officers.

Perhaps your insurer is one that has read NFPA (National Fire Protection Assoc.) and requires some form of compliance with NFPA 10, which requires removal of extinguishers that do not meet the "standards" of inspection, etc..

janice142 said:

I have two problems regarding fire extinguishers.

#1) the plastic strap that holds the unit to the bulkhead I cannot loosen without a pair of vise grips and a Serious tug. I solved that with a string and a bow (picture shoe laces)

#2) some of the larger units I cannot hold/pick up. That's why I have the medium size units. Aboard Seaweed I have five and each is checked on the first of the month.

If you're lucky enough to have a woman please make sure the ones you have are something your lady can handle. My hands are not large and I've not got a lot of strength so I compensated by having a few more than the minimum mandated.

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Sorry to be the barer of bad news but I'll bet that extinguisher states its ONLY approved with the supplied bracket which also includes that strap. It will say so right on the label.

High Wire,
I am north of the 49th here, things are different

Ted

Ted said:

High Wire,
I am north of the 49th here, things are different

Ted

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I see that so I amended my post.

Right out of NFPA 10


The NFPA has no power, nor does it undertake, to police or enforce compliance with the contents of this document.
Nor does the NFPA list, certify, test or inspect products, designs, or installations for compliance with this document.
Any certification or other statement of compliance with the requirements of this document shall not be attributable to
the NFPA and is solely the responsibility of the certifier or maker of the statement.


Personally I think my insurer would be really happy that I have thought it through and have additional fire protection on board.


They give discounts to experienced, trained people for a reason.

from BoatUS...

Myth #2: All extinguishers must be mounted with a bracket.
Reality: Mounting a fire extinguisher on a bracket keeps the unit in a handy place and may protect it from being banged around the boat, but it is not a legal requirement. You do, however, need to ensure the extinguisher is readily accessible, so leaving it at the bottom of locker or compartment is a big no-no.

Boat Fire Extinguishers: Four Myths From the BoatUS Foundation : BoatUS Press Room

Correct neither the ISO or NFPA enforces anything, they simply address, make, and advise on items in the Insurance Industry. As I stated, perhaps the insurance company has adopted these standards within their operations. I do not think the Original Question had anything to do with enforcement procedures but rather on a surveyors comments and an insurers response to those items. There is certainly nothing wrong with carrying additional equipment on board. I am a firm believer in that, but why would anyone carry something of life saving and/or boat saving use and not know or be assured that it would work when necessary ? You are certainly able to do whatever you like on your boat though.

This argument went on for years when I was in the Auxiliary. For years the Auxiliary required extinguishers to be mounted to count towards the decal. The fire extinguisher manufacturer says this:
Features

• 2.5 lb. of fire extinguishing agent (Average)
• 6 year limited warranty
• UL approved strap retention bracket
• Coast Guard (U.S.C.G) approved when fitted with supplied mounting bracket
• Powder coated cylinder for corrosion protection

The Vessel Examiners would ask "How can you say it does not need to be mounted?" And the answer was "Legal requirements are one thing, political requirements are another." They "recommend" the extinguishers be mounted. Apparently possession was "good enough". No clue what the current interpretation is.

ulysses said:

You may have a point with recreational boats. CFR 46-34.01.5 allows that if you carry fire extinguisher in access of the required minimum they too must be of the approved type. This may only apply to inspected vessel.

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Actually the section you refer to isn't even for all inspected or commercial, it's just for "Pressure vessels". Now there may be a similar section for other inspected. Regardless it's a dangerous practice to have fire extinguishers that aren't of the right type or currently known to be in good condition.

It is completely beyond my comprehension to think a BC, dry chem extinguisher that is sold with one type of bracket versus one sold with a clamping bracket is any different in design or use...especially if it says so right on the extinguisher it is the same IF sold with a different bracket. So safety is right off the table.

I am somewhat trained in shipboard fire fighting, have personally fought several boat fires and been involved with dozens more. If my insurance company thinks that additional large fire extinguisher which is the same exact model as the ones on the commercial boats I work on (in welded up brackets or in a bin)....that the USCG seems to have no issue with.....neither do I ....and I will bet neither will my insurance company.


So for the OP, if you have refillable fire extinguishers with inspection tags (or get tags from a fire extinguisher business) and every 30 days or so put your initials and date on them. That meets NFPA 10 for a recreational boat as far as I can tell and you are done. Or just take the extigushers to that store and have them inspect and tag them for a small fee. I have seen it done dozens of times for the commercial fleet I work for and is no different than you looking to see if they have pressure and are in reasonable condition. They used to hit them, maybe they still do, but in the link I provided it seems to be a myth that it is needed.

Here is the reference to the Rules for small passenger vessels "Sub-chapter T". Note that this is applicable to inspected small passenger vessels of less than 100 GT. 46 CFR 181.120. Basically excess fire equipment is required to meet the same criteria as required equipment in regards to inspection and maintenance. My mistake on the earlier reference in that I spent most of my time on tank vessels.

Once again, it is up to the insurance company as to what they are requiring to issue their policy and not necessarily an enforceable action by USCG.

Sure...the insurance company always can make their own requirements....


But 46 CFR 181.120 applies to passenger vessels and doesn't even require the extinguishers to be mounted in the bracket that is sold with them...as long as they are "secure"...so if you toss the bracket...no one has any idea whether your extinguisher meets the requirement for "selling it" or not.


The inspection tag issues was addressed.....


I really think this has become a debate over nothing.....

I don't feel as though I was debating anything. I had stated that the surveyor was probably going on the fact that excess un-inspected/maintained fire extinguishers should be removed from the boat. You had asked if I had that "in writing anywhere". I provided three locations where it was written for reference purposes. One ref. was indeed for tank vessels which is where I spent most of my time and the regs. were readily available.

While recreational vessels are not subject to the requirements of inspected vessels the insurance company may require it meets NFPA and/or CG requirements for inspected vessels. I was simply providing you with the locations where those requirements are "in writing". I did not consider it a debate, simply providing the information that you had requested in writing.

Ok....reread your first post and realized that the discussion of extra and unserviceable got a little clouded in my mind.


But none of the references mean a thing in my book...as they don't apply to rec vessels.


Only what your insurance company requires seems to matter...and after rereading my policy and my last boats (also a liveaboard)....nowhere in either policy does it mention safety gear. The only mention of it was concerning the survey and only what the surveyor recommended (whether he was right or wrong). Several items I knew the surveyors had overstepped their bounds and I discussed and got the insurance company to agree on....such as meeting current ABYC recommendations versus being an older boat. I upgraded eventually but I wasn't going to have them done prior to using the boat. This is somewhat common, but some insurance companies dig in their heels.


So I have to assume as long as I meet USCG safety requirements for a recreational vessel, I am OK, but encourage others to get in writing exactly what their insurance requires.

This illustrates an inherent problem with the surveyor/insurance industry relationship that all of us need to take very seriously and address with the insurance companies. Some years ago, they gave the SAMS/NAMS umbrella groups exclusive access to the boat survey function. They also abdicated oversight of standardization within those groups. As a result, there are inspectors running around with ABYC and other "regulations" and "requirements", and wlly nlly referencing them in their reports. That leaves YOU, the boat owner, stuck with making the case that X and Y items in a survey are inappropriate. Unfortunately, when the insurance companies abdicated technical oversight, they also eliminated knowledgeable internal technical staff who can referee inconsistencies. Who gets left holding the bag ($$$)? The boat owner.

I agree with PSNEELD....talk to your insurer and be armed with regulations to back up your grievances. Make it clear that elements of the surveyor community has run amuck. Point out that surveyors should be looking at condition of the boat and weighing it against the original design that was approved when the boat was put in service. That doesn't include additional safety equipment such as the number of life preservers on board, for example. If a surveyor wishes to address fire extinguishers, they should do so off-line and not in a survey report. Insurance companies need to hear what's going on out there, and the surveyor community isn't going to do it...that much is obvious.


Further, it is incongruous that a surveyor is qualified to set a value on a boat. "Excellent, good, poor" qualifiers, maybe. But a number value, no.