' lowball offer ' - is there such a thing... ?

To all Buyers.

Do you feel that an offer has to be within certain guidelines to be considered by the seller? If yes, why? What is the ' decent ' offer?
I am asking this ' newbie ' question, because I have been told in both occasions now, when I made an offer in writing, that I am not serious. Why am I not serious? Just because the seller does not like the number I provided?
I know now that a deadline can be put on any offer and it will quietly expire, when the seller does not make any counter. I still disagree with that. Negotiation is something we all do in our lives; to get hired, in business, with spouses, with our kids, etc. So, why am I ignored, when I want to get the feel of the seller and start an honest negotiation on a property? It happens in real estate, it happens at the dealerships, almost everywhere. In the boat business, this is not very common, I am told.
If get a counter, any size, I would get a message about the seller, how far he wants to go with the compromise. I might change my number accordingly and we can inch closer and closer to the final price. If I don't get anything back, except a note that I am ' not serious ', I feel insulted. Anybody should be able to state their position without judging someone else. There is no harm to come back with a counter, which is way out of my range, and we just say thank you and wish you well to each other. At least, this is what I would do, if I wanted to sell my property. I don't have one, yet, but it can happen some day.
I know that we all want to sell for the highest price and buy for the lowest price. But who set these standards for 3-5-8 % only limit on an offer? Business is business. We all want to make the best of it. How can I do it, if I get no communication and being ignored?
I remember, close to 40 years ago, when I first visited the Bazar in Istanbul, Turkey, as a young deckboy/O.S., I received a quick education from the shop owners and my senior sailors that negotiation is a must. A shop owner will not even talk to you, no matter how stupid foreigner you are, if you are not willing to negotiate. That is the charm of doing business. Money too, of course, but over there, nobody was offended, if I gave a 15-20-30-50% off price offer. We were all smiling and laughing and everybody had fun. Of course, they ripped me off, no matter how smart I was trying to negotiate, but at least, we had mutual respect and lot of fun.
Obviously, buying and selling a boat for many 100Ks is not a bazar item. I know that. What bothers me is judgement and ignorance. Give my your ' counter ', I'll consider it, I will counter it, and at the end we might just stay friends without spending any money.
In my case, the selling broker told to my buying broker that I was not serious and the seller does not even want to start any communication with me. I find this disrespectful.
I moved on and I will live, so no anger here. I just want to understand other people's thinkings. Please, educate me, where am I wrong? Thanks.

If a seller gets an offer that they consider "too low to be serious", they won't give you a counter because they feel it is a waste of their time. If they are listing their boat for $300k and get an offer of $200k, they figure there is no way that the prospective buyer would come close to that bottom line mystery number they have in the head of $270k. So they ignore it.

Folks are busy. They don't want to waste their time with buyers whom they feel there is no chance of coming to an agreement on price. To make a counter, they still have to have their broker write up the counter, sign it, etc....

I think if a broker is telling you that...you might be well below market and if the broker is the list g broker, might have inside knowledge of where the seller is willing to go. They may also know the mindset enough to know whether it is an insult offer based on the boat and it's condition.

If a seller says it is not serious...it is their perogative but will sometimes change their tune with time and no other offers.

I LOVE to negotiate, but there are limits. If I was selling a car for $20k and you offered $1, I would not consider you a serious buyer. What would I consider a serious offer? I don't know, but I know there is such a thing as too low.

If you like to bargain and are a reader, I highly suggest the book Influence: The Power of Persuasion. Your topic is covered in the book. It's a really good book.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/006124189..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=VSDY067SNQDK54GBGQQR

Around the world (Except in the US) buying and selling is a game played by the buyer and the seller, and as utazo89 said "Negotiation" is the name of the game. It seems that here many people do not know how to play this game, or are not willing to.

Refusing your low ball offer may be their way of countering. Simply, your offer is too far below the threshold. Try again; submit as many times as you like; I'll counter when you cross the threshold. If my broker told me to counter a ridiculous offer, I would counter a dollar lower than asking price.

Ted

People are willing to negotiate with someone they feel acts serious. If you think my boat is priced 25-50% or more too high, good luck talking me down. Go find what you feel to be a more realistic priced seller to work with.

Oftentimes boats can be listed for an unrealistically high price by a seller with no motivation to sell. They'll sell if they get near that price. Newbie buyers often can't see the forest for the trees and pass on more "expensive" similar boats that are likely better "deals" because they are in superior shape to the lower priced comps.

Alas, if ultimately nobody is willing to negotiate it may be time to examine the common denominator. Just some random thoughts.

What is a "Low Ball Offer"? Over the past few years that my wife and I have been looking for liveaboard boat that suits our needs we have seen many boats that are the same make, model, and with in a year of each other, with the same equipment, with an asking price difference as much as $40K. Now I know that everyone has a different opinion of what things are worth, but that big of price spread ? Would making an offer of $40K below asking price of the higher priced boat be considered a "Low Ball Offer"?

Why not make a full price offer on the lower priced boat?

mramoo said:

What is a "Low Ball Offer"? Over the past few years that my wife and I have been looking for liveaboard boat that suits our needs we have seen many boats that are the same make, model, and with in a year of each other, with the same equipment, with an asking price difference as much as $40K. Now I know that everyone has a different opinion of what things are worth, but that big of price spread ? Would making an offer of $40K below asking price of the higher priced boat be considered a "Low Ball Offer"?

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On a $400k asking price? No. On a $140k asking price? Probably.

You can always submit an email or note with your offer explaining what comps you used to come up with your offer. However, if you have two similar boats, one asking $100k and another asking $140k and they are truly equivalent, then buy the $100k boat and don't bother with the $140k boat. Amazing how buyers like to say that an asking price is too high by comparing the boat to other boats that they are NOT making offers on.

CPseudonym said:

Why not make a full price offer on the lower priced boat?

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Love this

Insult offer.... I think that is what I was trying to dance around.
My point was, there is no ' insult offer ' in other countries.
I am not judging anyone's act, just trying to get the picture about the system here.

psneeld said:

enough to know whether it is an insult offer based on the boat and it's condition.

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utazo89 said:

Insult offer.... I think that is what I was trying to dance around.
My point was, there is no ' insult offer ' in other countries.
I am not judging anyone's act, just trying to get the picture about the system here.

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I see what you are asking I think. If a seller gets insulted or offended by an offer that is their problem. They can ignore it or they can counter it, but they have no reason to be offended by a low-ball offer.

utazo89 said:

Insult offer.... I think that is what I was trying to dance around.
My point was, there is no ' insult offer ' in other countries.
I am not judging anyone's act, just trying to get the picture about the system here.

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If your asking price is twice your bottom line, I can understand that kind of culture. I'm guessing most brokers and sellers in this country aren't pricing that way. With a low ball offer they may assume you lack the financial ability to tender a serious offer. BTW, if you know your low ball offer is no where near what they will accept, then it's not serious is it.

Ted

Following this with great interest since we've found the type of boat we want and will be looking at different ones.
Now what if a buyer submits a "lowball" all cash offer?
I'm thinking if a seller has had one or more offers fall through because of financing or other reasons then they may be more willing to accept a cash offer.
What do y'all think about that concept?

Ted.

I would never make and offer, if I did not have the financing in order. My offer was 20% below the asking. I know that is quite high %, but not unheard of. I am not brave enough to start 40-50% below asking. Some are.
It is not always just about what the seller thinks the boat is worth. Sometimes situations, life changes can push a deal to a lower price acceptance (age, health, upkeep, another boat bought, divorce, marriage, etc.) Me, as a buyer, possibly cannot know, if that is the case. Maybe the listing broker does. So, as an outsider, why should not I do an offering very low first, and adjust it later, as it goes?

O C Diver said:

If your asking price is twice your bottom line, I can understand that kind of culture. I'm guessing most brokers and sellers in this country aren't pricing that way. With a low ball offer they may assume you lack the financial ability to tender a serious offer. BTW, if you know your low ball offer is no where near what they will accept, then it's not serious is it.

Ted

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mramoo said:

Around the world (Except in the US) buying and selling is a game played by the buyer and the seller, and as utazo89 said "Negotiation" is the name of the game. It seems that here many people do not know how to play this game, or are not willing to.

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That's true, maybe. But when I lived in Germany they had their way, and when I lived in the Dominican Republic, they had a very different way. I didn't see either of them as particularly knowledgeable about or even particularly willing to play the game here either. The game of negotiation in the US varies so widely as it seems based on the cultural habits of the numerous immigrant generations whose methodology is as varied as the cultures they come from. Still, when equal consideration and some initial respect is injected, I never met someone who I couldn't negotiate with or that couldn't negotiate with me in any culture.

Did your broker make a suggestion to you as what he thought fair market value of the boat was?

As long as I have been studying the boat market in the PNW I have seen boats that sit on the list for a year or two before lowering the asking price. Then the boats get the "Sale Pending" note on their listing. That tells me that the boats that just sit on the listing are overpriced. They may be getting offers, and rejecting them, or not getting offers at all.

utazo89 said:

Ted.

I would never make and offer, if I did not have the financing in order. My offer was 20% below the asking. I know that is quite high %, but not unheard of. I am not brave enough to start 40-50% below asking. Some are.
It is not always just about what the seller thinks the boat is worth. Sometimes situations, life changes can push a deal to a lower price acceptance (age, health, upkeep, another boat bought, divorce, marriage, etc.) Me, as a buyer, possibly cannot know, if that is the case. Maybe the listing broker does. So, as an outsider, why should not I do an offering very low first, and adjust it later, as it goes?

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I don't consider 20% off of asking to be an unreasonable starting point. But then I bought when it was a weak economy / strong buyers market. Have a friend who just went under contract for a sailboat that had been on the market for 2 years. It was over priced. He offered 60% of asking and settled for 70%. He presented his offer with comps for recently sold identical base boats. So you never know.

Ted

utazo89 said:

Ted.

I would never make and offer, if I did not have the financing in order. My offer was 20% below the asking. I know that is quite high %, but not unheard of. I am not brave enough to start 40-50% below asking. Some are.
It is not always just about what the seller thinks the boat is worth. Sometimes situations, life changes can push a deal to a lower price acceptance (age, health, upkeep, another boat bought, divorce, marriage, etc.) Me, as a buyer, possibly cannot know, if that is the case. Maybe the listing broker does. So, as an outsider, why should not I do an offering very low first, and adjust it later, as it goes?

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I think 20% is a low initial offer, but not an unreasonably low initial offer. That is an offer that the broker should give to the seller. Now, if the seller has already rejected offers higher, that is information the broker can share but nothing wrong with making the offer.

I thought, the brokers were not allowed to suggest, or be involved, what the numbers should be. Am I wrong on this?
The first broker's offer from has specifically stated this.

Star0210 said:

Did your broker make a suggestion to you as what he thought fair market value of the boat was?

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utazo89 said:

Ted.

I would never make and offer, if I did not have the financing in order. My offer was 20% below the asking.

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I also don't think 20% below asking is " lowball."
Many of the older boats we looked at eventually sold for 20-50% asking price.
Our own was 50% below original asking price, when we stepped in after two price reductions. Ours was a cash offer, sellers might look at cash and financing offers differently.

utazo89 said:

I thought, the brokers were not allowed to suggest, or be involved, what the numbers should be. Am I wrong on this?
The first broker's offer from has specifically stated this.

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I don't know...that's why I asked. I would think if you're working with a buyers broker (in other words a broker other than the listing broker) he should be able to provide you some guidance about comps etc.

Would you consider a 33 old boat ' older '?


W

Aquafarm said:

I also don't think 20% below asking is " lowball."
Many of the older boats we looked at eventually sold for 20-50% asking price..

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dhays said:

I think 20% is a low initial offer, but not an unreasonably low initial offer.

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To a point.
20% off a 500k boat? Probably.
20% off a 118k boat? Probably not.

utazo89, I'm guessing there are at least two, not so common, elements at play. The seller can't get passed comparing your US offer to his Canadian asking and the selling broker not wanting to split the commish.

I will go out on a limb here and say, if that boat doesn't sell in the next 45 to 60 days, it will eventually go within 10k of your offer.

There was a thread recently about offers and the consensus was 20 to 30 below for a start was not all that out of line.

It is an insult only because you took it that way.
Your offer was probably seen as an insult to the seller but you didn't think it was, right?

Perception.

Move on.

Hawgwash said:

To a point.
20% off a 500k boat? Probably.
20% off a 118k boat? Probably not.

utazo89, I'm guessing there are at least two, not so common, elements at play. The seller can't get passed comparing your US offer to his Canadian asking and the selling broker not wanting to split the commish.

I will go out on a limb here and say, if that boat doesn't sell in the next 45 to 60 days, it will eventually go within 10k of your offer.

There was a thread recently about offers and the consensus was 20 to 30 below for a start was not all that out of line.

It is an insult only because you took it that way.
Your offer was probably seen as an insult to the seller but you didn't think it was, right?

Perception.

Move on.

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That's the problem with folks wanting to know a percentage based rule of thumb. 20% off a $10,000 boat ain't much. 20% off a $1million boat is separate zip codes.

It doesn't sound like the op is playing lowball to me at all depending upon the price range.

I wouldn't consider a 20% below asking a lowball offer. There are some boats listed which are anything up to double the realistic price they will sell for.

With my boat, I offered 30% less than the asking price, then settled on 25% less. I had done my research and showed him a list of similar boats and their list and sale prices.

After the survey picked up a few minor issues, I tried to knock it down a bit more, but the seller dug his heels in. I could tell he was at his lower limit so I didn't push it any more.

Buying privately allowed me to negotiate directly with the seller. I think this made it easier to put forward my thoughts about the pricing without insulting the seller.

I really think it's the condition of the boat and what the asking price is for the boat....plus where it stands with comparables.

Let's say there are 10 Albin 40s listed. From $40k to $140k .

The bottom one has been on the hard for 4 years, doesn't run and is a wreck. The next is 60k and is in rough condition, but runs with a new rebuilt, and has been cruising regularly.

The next batch are up around 90k and all in OK shape, turnkey as many would say.

The top one or two up near $140k have had major refit that cost more than the asking price.

If you offered significant less than the $90k group for the new refits, yes, those guys might be insulted. But realistically, not many are going to give the much more than the 90k group.

If you offered 50k to the 90k group...they too might be insulted...but because there are lower priced boats many would take $75k or so if they needed to get out.

The $40k POS has an uncertain future....in any way shape or form.

Now the 60k boat is the wild card. Rough but a working cruiser. Way better than the lowest on the ladder, not as nice as the 90k crowd....but with sweat equity and a little cash...bingo.

You can offer the 60k guy a little less, but not much as he already thinks he is in the bargain basement crowd and with a little effort the boat can be a 90k crowd boat.

So it is a game...depending on the boats and the players and the market.

If you own a boat where only 10 hulls were ever made and they are pretty different from the crowd.....more juice in your pocket.

No particular hard and fast rule...but low ball a guy with a fair asking price and the boat is in great shape and there is an entire ladder of lesser boats...and yes, here in the US YOU might insult someone.....see it all the time.

AusCan said:

I wouldn't consider a 20% below asking a lowball offer. There are some boats listed which are anything up to double the realistic price they will sell for.

With my boat, I offered 30% less than the asking price, then settled on 25% less. I had done my research and showed him a list of similar boats and their list and sale prices.

After the survey picked up a few minor issues, I tried to knock it down a bit more, but the seller dug his heels in. I could tell he was at his lower limit so I didn't push it any more.

Buying privately allowed me to negotiate directly with the seller. I think this made it easier to put forward my thoughts about the pricing without insulting the seller.

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That somewhat mirrors our experience.

There were many factors involved; the most important being how long it had been up for sale, and the mortgage/bank crisis in the US had squeezed prices lower in BC (prices had seriously dropped in Washington State and Alaska).