Why so few Coots?

markpierce · Jul 11, 2016

tinped;459557 ... There simply is no place to enjoy the outdoors.[/QUOTE said:

123 · Jul 11, 2016

Mark your Coot is beautiful example off a sturdy steel smaller sized trawler. On 35ft you cannot expect the area of a 40 footer, no reason to defend your Coot.

Steel does not fit all of us, same with 35ft

BruceK · Jul 11, 2016

BandB said:
..I can see the add campaign now for Seahorse. My wife is suggestion slogans like "Duck me." I was thinking more along the lines of Get a Duck. Everyone needs a Duck....

Or maybe "Get Ducked!"
Resale prospects come a distant second to enjoying the boat you chose to suit your needs and wants.

dhays · Jul 11, 2016

BandB said:
Direct sales of a generally unknown line of boats from a Chinese factory just isn't a very good business model. There's one Coot to see in Sausalito. No other Seahorse product available for viewing and walking.

It's a plan that will sell a boat or two a year and perhaps the same in other markets. Not a plan that will ever build volume.

I would contend that it is a great business model if the company is happy selling a couple boats a year. We often get biased towards being the biggest, most well known, or highest volume. There is something to be said for building what you like in a way that makes you happy.

Nothing wrong with being a high volume production builder, if that is what their business goals are.

markpierce · Jul 11, 2016

Seahorse Marine's main business is building Diesel Ducks. Their boatyard seems to be busy. The firm tries to limit marketing costs to keep costs lower. Nevertheless, Coot #7 was displayed in this Spring's boat show in Richmond and was advertised in the local "sailing rag" Latitude 38, featuring a photo of my Coot. Coots 5 and 6 prior to delivery to the USA:

Lost Horizons · Jul 11, 2016

Why has Nordhavn discontinued the N35?
It seems to be more livable than the Coot and arguably more practical for coastal navigation with the SD speed potential.

BandB · Jul 11, 2016

dhays said:
I would contend that it is a great business model if the company is happy selling a couple boats a year.

Very true and better than being midway between that and volume, spending money without the revenue. Just the question here was why they don't sell more.

BandB · Jul 11, 2016

Lost Horizons said:
Why has Nordhavn discontinued the N35?
It seems to be more livable than the Coot and arguably more practical for coastal navigation with the SD speed potential.

People aren't willing to pay Nordhavn's prices for a 35' plus they can make more money on larger sizes.

The competition in the 35' range is a few relatively small builders and then the dominant player in the field, Sea Ray.

Lost Horizons · Jul 11, 2016

BandB said:
People aren't willing to pay Nordhavn's prices for a 35' plus they can make more money on larger sizes.

The competition in the 35' range is a few relatively small builders and then the dominant player in the field, Sea Ray.

Perhaps, this is also the reason why nobody wants the Coot?
For $400k there are many alternatives.

markpierce · Jul 11, 2016

BandB said:
...
The competition in the 35' range is a few relatively small builders and then the dominant player in the field, Sea Ray.

BandB · Jul 11, 2016

markpierce said:

You can eek, but the volume of 30-40' boats Sea Ray sells is huge compared to any trawler like boat. They target families. Most families raising kids aren't looking for passagemakers and aren't going to pay the prices of trawler type boats. Sea Ray caters to them. That's where the volume is. Most trawler like boats go to older buyers.

psneeld · Jul 11, 2016

Rustybarge said:
From a traditionalists point of view there are really only two choices of boat construction materials; wood or steel.I like to compare those two materials to brick and stone in buildings, and GRP to concrete and PVC in modern commercial structures.

When I think steel I think of the iconic cruise liners, right down to little cute Dutch sailing barges and Tajks, not forgetting the pretty tugs fishing trawlers and work boats.

To my way of thinking GRP boats are replicas of the genuine article; pastiches in plastic. Rather like comparing genuine teak wooden furniture to cheap patio plastic tables and chairs.

So far in left field I don't know where to begin.

What are the current production numbers of all types of hull materiels?

If wood and steel are 10 percent I will be amazed.

I love traditional, but I love doing more than, planning and maintaining.

markpierce · Jul 11, 2016

Sea Rays. ..

markpierce · Jul 11, 2016

Steel versus plastic. ... That was tertiary for me (actually irrelevant given the available choices). First was 180-degree wide decks with high, strong railings, a pilothouse with all-around visibility, and a keel-protected rudder and propeller while easily sleeping two and entertaining six. Doesn't hurt to have a strong hull and watertight/strong doors and windows either.

The voyage is the purpose. As far as destinations go, there are alternatives such as automobile, bus, airplane, train, or ship.

O C Diver · Jul 11, 2016

ksanders said:
So... If full displacement coastal cruisers were so marketable, why did almost all manufacturers either quit making them, or increase the horsepower to make them SD boats (in the case of several flat bottomed boats that now have higher hp engines)????

Poor marketing.

Same reason Saab went out of business.

Same reason Oldsmobile went out of business.

Same reason Saturn went out of business.

There is a 40'+ center console docked next to my charter boat. It has four 350HP V8 outboards on it (1400 HP). Supposedly a $750,000 CENTER CONSOLE for off shore tournament fishing! It's less about what you have to sell; it's more about convincing people that they want what you have to sell. Nordhavn and Krogen would be long dead and gone without good advertising and marketing. Good product, but most customers won't use them for their designed purpose.

The ultimate example of boat marketing is the Krogen Manatee. Not in any way knocking the Manatee. But you can't tell me the first 10 or so that were sold, weren't because of marketing.

Ted

BandB · Jul 11, 2016

psneeld said:
So far in left field I don't know where to begin.

What are the current production numbers of all types of hull materiels?

If wood and steel are 10 percent I will be amazed.

I love traditional, but I love doing more than, planning and maintaining.

Wood and steel were big in small boats only because fiberglass boats hadn't been built. Ten years ago, any boat over 100' was steel. Then suddenly you had a builder build the first 130' fiberglass yacht, then 164'. Now, the vast majority of boats in that size range are fiberglass. The reason those over 200' are steel is no one has the ability to build one out of fiberglass. One day they will do so.

I'm decidedly not a traditionalist. Where there are new methods and choices, I'm much in favor of them.

BandB · Jul 11, 2016

markpierce said:
Sea Rays. ..

My first three boats were Sea Rays and I had great service on all three. Only Sea Rays from the age of 13 to the age of 28. Until I moved to Florida four years ago, I didn't even know there were trawlers, had never heard of Nordhavn or Coots or KK's. I hadn't heard of Riva or Sunseeker either. I did know of Hatteras because that's what we went deep sea fishing on when we did so. That's what most of the charter fishing boats in NC seemed to be when I was a kid.

Lost Horizons · Jul 11, 2016

O C Diver said:
Poor marketing.

Ted

How many Diesel Ducks are sold compared to Coots? They have the same level of marketing. Common sense suggests that cheaper models should be sold in larger quantities. All things being equal, there should be many more Coots out there than DD382 and DD462 combined.

BandB · Jul 11, 2016

O C Diver said:
The ultimate example of boat marketing is the Krogen Manatee. Not in any way knocking the Manatee. But you can't tell me the first 10 or so that were sold, weren't because of marketing.

Ted

To me, the Manatee is the PT Cruiser of boats. First time you see it you think how odd looking it is. Second time you wonder why anyone would want that. By the third time you think it's really cute and thinking maybe you'd like to buy one. You realize it really is a good design.

BandB · Jul 11, 2016

Lost Horizons said:
How many Diesel Ducks are sold compared to Coots? They have the same level of marketing. Common sense suggests that cheaper models should be sold in larger quantities. All things being equal, there should be many more Coots out there than DD382 and DD462 combined.

The pricing is more acceptable in the size of the Diesel Duck than the Coot size. Yes, more Ducks are sold, but it's still a very low volume boat. I have yet to ever see a Diesel Duck in person or to know that I have, in all my boating.

markpierce · Jul 11, 2016

Lost Horizons said:
How many Diesel Ducks are sold compared to Coots? They have the same level of marketing. Common sense suggests that cheaper models should be sold in larger quantities. All things being equal, there should be many more Coots out there than DD382 and DD462 combined.

Don't have the numbers, but Coots are a very small fraction of the boats produced there. No doubt builder Bill Kimley will be happy to provide statistics.

Lost Horizons · Jul 11, 2016

BandB said:
The pricing is more acceptable in the size of the Diesel Duck than the Coot size. Yes, more Ducks are sold, but it's still a very low volume boat. I have yet to ever see a Diesel Duck in person or to know that I have, in all my boating.

Maybe you are right and the results are statistically insignificant. Or maybe there is something else. For my next boat, the Coot checks many boxes except the livability. I need a boat I can live on full time. I think I can do it on a DD382, but I am not sure about the Coot. The only tangible advantage the Coot has in my eyes is the ease of singlehanding.

O C Diver · Jul 11, 2016

Lost Horizons said:
How many Diesel Ducks are sold compared to Coots? They have the same level of marketing. Common sense suggests that cheaper models should be sold in larger quantities. All things being equal, there should be many more Coots out there than DD382 and DD462 combined.

Marketing.

George Buehler the architect of both boats was marketing Diesel Ducks a decade before Seahorse started building them and Coots. DDs had a cult following before the Coot was ever drafted.

Ted

Lost Horizons · Jul 11, 2016

O C Diver said:
Marketing.

George Buehler the architect of both boats was marketing Diesel Ducks a decade before Seahorse started building them and Coots. DDs had a cult following before the Coot was ever drafted.

Ted

Yes, but for a potential buyer like me that history is not important if not completely irrelevant.

BandB · Jul 11, 2016

Lost Horizons said:
Maybe you are right and the results are statistically insignificant. Or maybe there is something else. For my next boat, the Coot checks many boxes except the livability. I need a boat I can live on full time. I think I can do it on a DD382, but I am not sure about the Coot. The only tangible advantage the Coot has in my eyes is the ease of singlehanding.

I think the Ducks and Coot are very interesting. However, I think many would have a difficult time living with their maximum and cruising speeds. Only you can figure out if the DD382 meets your needs. I think their boats are all very unique and it takes a special type person for them to be a good match.

Lost Horizons · Jul 11, 2016

BandB said:
I think the Ducks and Coot are very interesting. However, I think many would have a difficult time living with their maximum and cruising speeds. Only you can figure out if the DD382 meets your needs. I think their boats are all very unique and it takes a special type person for them to be a good match.

There is no doubt about it.
There are two fundamental differences between the Ducks and Coots, price aside: 1) ocean crossing capability; 2) size and comfort. The question is, which factor the buyers favor more?
My guess is, number two. The reason is a competition in this price range for coastal cruisers - there are other choices. For ocean crossing passagemakers with pilot houses, which eliminates sailboats, the competition in the DD price range virtually does not exist.

O C Diver · Jul 11, 2016

Lost Horizons said:
Yes, but for a potential buyer like me that history is not important if not completely irrelevant.

Maybe for you. There are a lot of people who buy their boat for the wrong reasons, marketing, popularity, history, and perceived reputation are some of the most common.

Ted

Lost Horizons · Jul 12, 2016

O C Diver said:
Maybe for you. There are a lot of people who buy their boat for the wrong reasons, marketing, popularity, history, and perceived reputation are some of the most common.

Ted

Apparently, it was also true for ALL Seahorse Marine customers of the last four years.

ksanders · Jul 12, 2016

some of you are just not getting the point. its not marketing.

its a simple fact that few people with the money to buy a several hundred thousand dollar boat have te time or desire to go at fd speeds.

thats because they are busy making a living. for most money comes from long hours in an office. prespective boat buyers want to be able to get somewhere, enjoy their time off and get back in a reasonable amount of time.

no amount of marketing will convince people of anything else.

ever wonder why FD boats are not being manufacturered... thats because the public does not want them.

the only exception is the expedition yacht crown, but they are mostly retired.

Rustybarge · Jul 12, 2016

psneeld said:
So far in left field I don't know where to begin.

What are the current production numbers of all types of hull materiels?

If wood and steel are 10 percent I will be amazed.

I love traditional, but I love doing more than, planning and maintaining.

In Holland I'd guess 99% of new boats are steel judging from the boat sale sites. Of course on canals and rivers where you are constantly banging into lock gates and stone walls GRP would self destruct after a very short time span, which is why its still the material of choice for big commercial trawlers.

I own a GRP workboat and I'm surprised how vulnerable the gel coat is; the slightest bang off something produces a massive crack often resulting in a piece of the gel coat falling off.

My steel boat bounces off stuff; a quick lick of paint repairs all but the worst damaged areas, and I'm never afraid of floating debris sinking the boat.

Why so few Coots?

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