Ethanol

Just got this email from BoatUS. I sent in my complaint/comment. I hate the ethanol mandate. Ethanol is quite possibly the stupidest thing ever invented by rational people. It raises the price of corn which raises the prices of other foods. It's not a good conversion of energy-- it actually eats up more energy than it makes. All the extra corn farming and fertilizing and watering is terrible for the environment. It only makes sense for the farmers (and their lobbyists).

Plus it screws up my carburetors !!!


BoatU.S. Government Affairs Logo

June 28th, 2016

Dear BoatU.S. Member:

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is asking for comments on a proposal to increase the amount of ethanol that must be blended into the nation's gasoline supply for 2017. If adopted, these proposed levels will require the use of a record amount of ethanol, forcing higher-level fuel blends (including E15 or 15% ethanol) into gas pumps and at more gas stations. It's important to know that most marine engines are built to only work with up to 10% ethanol, and it is illegal to use gas containing more than 10% ethanol in any marine engine.

Please take a few moments to send a message NOW urging the EPA to lower the ethanol mandates to ensure an adequate supply of fuel that will work in your boat.

Click here to take action.

Background:

The Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) is the 2005 law that requires the blending of biofuels such as corn-ethanol into our gasoline. When written, it was assumed that America's use of gasoline would continue to rise. However, U.S. gasoline usage has actually dropped steadily since 2005 and now the law forces more ethanol into fewer gallons of gasoline.

To keep up with this mandate, in 2010 the EPA permitted E15 (fuel containing up to 15% ethanol) into the marketplace, for some engines. E15 has been proven to damage boat engines and so it is prohibited in marine engines. It is also illegal to use E15 in snowmobiles, motorcycles, small engines like lawnmowers and leaf blowers, as well as any car or light-truck made before 2001.

E15 and higher ethanol blends fuel can now be found in 23 states, often at the very same pumps as E10 gasoline. A sticker on the pump mixed in with all the other labels may be the only warning for E15 gasoline. This creates a huge potential for mis-fueling and puts boaters at risk of using fuel that will damage their engines. CLICK HERE for more information on E15 and the Renewable Fuel Standard.

Thanks for being a BoatU.S. member and for taking action to let EPA hear how more ethanol will affect your boat engine. The deadline for your comment is July 11th, 2016. Help spread the word and please FORWARD TO A FRIEND.

Sincerely,

Margaret B. Podlich
President, BoatU.S.
(703) 461-2878 x8363
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cardude01 said:

Ethanol is quite possibly the stupidest thing ever invented by rational people. It raises the price of corn which raises the prices of other foods. It's not a good conversion of energy-- it actually eats up more energy than it makes. All the extra corn farming and fertilizing and watering is terrible for the environment. It only makes sense for the farmers (and their lobbyists).

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I don't know how to respond without this thread becoming political. The best I can do is non-partisan.

If you actually believe the elected officials in EITHER party are looking out for your best interests, please re-read the above quote until you understand.

Yeah I agree my post was probably possibly too political.

But what do y'all think about E15? Won't that be even worse for outboards?

cardude01 said:

It [mandated ethanol use] raises the price of corn which raises the prices of other foods. It's not a good conversion of energy-- it actually eats up more energy than it makes. All the extra corn farming and fertilizing and watering is terrible for the environment. It only makes sense for the farmers (and their lobbyists).

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That summation is not political at all. It is simply a rational statement on the current situation. The use of ethanol could make some sense, both environmentally and economically. Unfortunately, it does neither the way it is being done. It currently serves more as a farm subsidy than any type of environmental strategy.

Probably won't get much argument to your statements in this crown as generally we represent both coasts and not the large corn producing sections in the middle.

E 15 WILL KILL your outboard!

DO NOT USE E 15 in any marine engine.

(Unless you hate your boat motor)

E15 will also cause major problems with aluminum fuel tanks.

If 15% ethanol is so great that it has to be mandated why not 85% or 100%?

cardude or others,

Can you find/post up here the hot linky for comments to this issue please?
I dug around in EPA site and struck out.

In one of my adventures away from the ocean, I had a dairy in Tillamook, OR. I still have friends and family farming, but none growing ethanol corn. My parents came from farm families. Born in 1901 and 1908 when Teddy was president. Wish he still was now.
I don't care for ethanol in fuel, but then I don't like low sulfur diesel. But it does make the air cleaner. In addition to gasoline, ethanol is used to bring biodiesel up to standard diesel power. That said, the corn used to make ethanol isn't lost. It is a prime cattle feed and replaces other grains the cattle would eat. In fact the ethanol corn is in demand by cattlemen. It makes meat and dairy products cheaper. If you don't eat meat or ice cream then I suppose it's a bad thing.
Also, most farmers live on the land they farm. They don't get city water, but well water and they don't want their families to get cancer anymore than you do. Farmers wouldn't use products that kill them. The take multiple soil samples every year so they don't put down more fertilizer than the next crop will use. Extra fertilizer or trips across the fields don't help profits if there are any. If all the farmers went organic, much of the world's population would have to go away.

Lepke said:

In one of my adventures away from the ocean, I had a dairy in Tillamook, OR. I still have friends and family farming, but none growing ethanol corn. My parents came from farm families. Born in 1901 and 1908 when Teddy was president. Wish he still was now.
I don't care for ethanol in fuel, but then I don't like low sulfur diesel. But it does make the air cleaner. In addition to gasoline, ethanol is used to bring biodiesel up to standard diesel power. That said, the corn used to make ethanol isn't lost. It is a prime cattle feed and replaces other grains the cattle would eat. In fact the ethanol corn is in demand by cattlemen. It makes meat and dairy products cheaper. If you don't eat meat or ice cream then I suppose it's a bad thing.
Also, most farmers live on the land they farm. They don't get city water, but well water and they don't want their families to get cancer anymore than you do. Farmers wouldn't use products that kill them. The take multiple soil samples every year so they don't put down more fertilizer than the next crop will use. Extra fertilizer or trips across the fields don't help profits if there are any. If all the farmers went organic, much of the world's population would have to go away.

Click to expand...

Ethanol fuel produces less CO than regular gasoline. However it produces more
Ozone producing gasses. Ethanol can't use current pipelines because of the water that comes with it. E85 also has much poorer fuel economy than regular gasoline, meaning that more fuel has to be burned (and transported) to do the same amount of work. This also increases consumer costs. Since the mandated ethanol standards the cost of food and feed corn has risen dramatically, and therefore the cost of corn fed meat and poultry.

I like the idea of reduce CO emissions, but I am not convinced that when you look at the total effect it has it will be a net environmental gain. Not to mention the cost of replacing and disposing of marine gas engines engines earlier than they would otherwise.

We will be much better off when switchgrass can be used economically to produce ethanol or any of the other currently wasted biomass.

While tempting, ideas such as ethanol fuel additives or electric cars don't always provide the overall environmental "win" that we might like. However in the case of ethanol, the farm lobby will ensure that lawmakers will continue to simply look at the large drop in CO from E85 use.

This is from the Boat US website. Try this link: http://www.capwiz.com/boatus/issues/alert/?alertid=72776626

Ladies, Gentlemen, Children and All Boaters

Atmospherically separated CO2 turned into syn-gas and then transformed into fungible, drop-in gasoline, diesel, and jet fuels. All production portions can be solar powered for new source availability to a "full cycle" global scale hydrocarbon fuel source. Worldwide the atmosphere currently holds over 100 year supply of overburdened CO2 PPM.

Others and I have been proceeding forward for 12 years toward attaining this capability.

Happy New-Fuel-Source Daze! - Art

Art, I think you need to translate that into a clearer explanation, or some typos slipped thru there, because even I am unsure what you mean, and I'm fairly up on this sort of subject.

Peter B said:

Art, I think you need to translate that into a clearer explanation, or some typos slipped thru there, because even I am unsure what you mean, and I'm fairly up on this sort of subject.

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Maybe a side effect of these new fuels?

Ethanol eating bacteria, acetobacters, create acids. Acids create galvanic corrosion currents in gasoline, which is why you wont find much metal in a car's fuel system.

I agree it is a dumb idea. People do dumb things and you have to live with their dumb ideas or change the rules. They dont care the people who support ethanol about your old carbs. They want them to disappear, that old tech they consider to be polluting tech.

I now after having to constantly fix lawnmower, small motor carbs, simply buy 5 gallons of craptastic E10 and dump in water, shake it. Let it sit for 15 minutes. Then pour off pure gas on top. It improved the power of my weak 6 HP lawnmower so that it no longer bogs down. And so far, the carb is lasting without clogging up with white corrosion.

Probably a good idea to mix ATF into E10 on boat engines..

Peter B said:

Art, I think you need to translate that into a clearer explanation, or some typos slipped thru there, because even I am unsure what you mean, and I'm fairly up on this sort of subject.

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Peter

No typos. Translation to complete clarity is thwarted by trade secret abeyance - on many levels. I best as allowed explained this method of utilizing atmospheric CO2 as a base product for a global scope new fuel source till my finger tips ached in 2011 through 2012, to numerous TF members. I've not time nor energy to do that again. Vast majority of TF persons who read what I described were too often rudely condescending toward this method and its need for development to assist stopping the ever increasing speed of marching toward climate catastrophe. Much is confidential/proprietary regarding my devices as well as many of the other devices from persons and companies. We've a sizable conglomerate is working feverously on this endeavor. What and how is said about this program in my post #12 is exactly what we are proceeding with and toward.

If you'd like to personally learn a bit more regarding allowably released specifics... that can be accomplished via email. Let me know.

Art


PS: For natural reasons - Atmosphere CO2 content to keep climate regulated into reasonable living conditions (as it has been for over 12 thousand years) needs to stay at between 225 to 280 CO2 PPM (parts per million). Currently it is breaking 400 PPM and currently gaining approx. 3 PPM per year http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/weekly.html Atmospheric CO2 is the instigator for global warming. From its warmth producing solar absorption rates there are many added "feed-ons" that occur to increase this solar absorption warming cycle (such as increased humidity, dark open land masses from glacial retreats, open waters from reduced ice formations... etc.). Suffice it to say the following: Scientific predictions show that within this century, maybe as soon as in the next couple to few decades, this warming trend will interrupt the thousands of years naturally regulated flows of trade winds and oceanic currents. When these cataclysmic events take place there will be an unprecedented upheaval of environmentally altered conditions that effect all living properties on Earth - Very much humans included.


Luckily I can still edit here - See FF's post just below this. It is the reason I mention "Vast majority of TF persons who read what I described were too often rudely condescending..." in my first paragraph above. And, yes FF was and still is one of them. LOL

"marching toward climate catastrophe."

AHH the old "proven science" that may never ever be questioned.

Back in the early computer days "GIGO" was better understood.

Attempting to deconstruct a society for unproven and failed computer models is risky.

We have proof of 4.3 billion years of "climate change" waiting another thousand won't matter.

Lepke said:

That said, the corn used to make ethanol isn't lost. It is a prime cattle feed and replaces other grains the cattle would eat. In fact the ethanol corn is in demand by cattlemen. It makes meat and dairy products cheaper.

Click to expand...

Can you 'splain a bit more about how that can be?

-Chris

The ethanol makers sell the leftovers to cattlemen who feed it to the cattle.
Cattlemen also have been known to feed dead sick anilmals to cattle. That is how the brain disease spongiform_encephalopathy, mad cow disease started. If the cows could grow on sludge, the farmers would feed that to the cattle.
Whatever is cheapest to get the best price at the markets for whatever you produce is how it is. If you dont like it, then buy organic foods.?

Capt. Jon said:

If 15% ethanol is so great that it has to be mandated why not 85% or 100%?

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They were doing that in Brazil years ago

Currently in Brazil ethanol blending in gasoline is 27%. We have cars that run with 100% ethanol and called flex cars that can use pure ethanol or gasoline mixed.
Deva

I buy truck loads of ethanol for making glass cleaners rather than using a petro base solvent as evaporate enhancer. The stuff is purified and also used to raise the alcohol level in wines. I looked into buying the fuel grade ethanol because it was much cheaper after talking to the manufacturer it was a no go because of the extra impurity's in it are rather nasty. I also talk to the sales rep and we joke about how much petroleum that goes into making a liter of ethanol.
I think that its a good idea to use it in fuel for now and that it will be only temporary till they find a replacement for fossil fuels on land based units.
Once the land based units are powered by something else; the volume of gas used will drop and there will be no need to water it down with ethanol. Cost wise it would not be feasible to keep using it . Unless it swings the other way where gas engines only burn pure ethanol
My 2 cents and things are changing quicker every day

sdowney717 said:

The ethanol makers sell the leftovers to cattlemen who feed it to the cattle.
Cattlemen also have been known to feed dead sick anilmals to cattle. That is how the brain disease spongiform_encephalopathy, mad cow disease started. If the cows could grow on sludge, the farmers would feed that to the cattle.
Whatever is cheapest to get the best price at the markets for whatever you produce is how it is. If you dont like it, then buy organic foods.?

Click to expand...

What are "the leftovers" called? Are you saying it's unsafe to feed that to cattle?

-Chris

Sea Q said:

I think that its a good idea to use it in fuel for now and that it will be only temporary till they find a replacement for fossil fuels on land based units.

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I keep thinking fuel -- or a fuel additive -- derived from poppy seeds would be the next new thing. Solve the fuel issue and Afghanistan's economy in one fell swoop. (In case anyone runs with that idea, I'll be happy to accept modest royalties.)

-Chris

Art said:

Peter

No typos. Translation to complete clarity is thwarted by trade secret abeyance - on many levels. I best as allowed explained this method of utilizing atmospheric CO2 as a base product for a global scope new fuel source till my finger tips ached in 2011 through 2012, to numerous TF members. I've not time nor energy to do that again. Vast majority of TF persons who read what I described were too often rudely condescending toward this method and its need for development to assist stopping the ever increasing speed of marching toward climate catastrophe.

Click to expand...

Art, I get it. I was just a bit bemused with some of your terms, like..."CO2 as a base product for a global scope new fuel source." Also..."transformed into fungible, drop-in gasoline, diesel, etc"
It was the those terms that I was mainly confused by.

However, I have no problem accepting the climate change argument, as we are seeing it, and living it, every time we watch the news lately. Records in temps, max and minimum, rainfall of record levels, trouts, massive bushfires, frequent tornados where they were rare before, loss of ice cover, shrinking glaciers...it's all there. I think climate change a better term than global warming, because it is the extreme swings that are causing the harm for now - sea level rises over time will be much slower.

The debate as to whether it is just another natural cycle, or being influenced by human activity and CO2 output is almost specious, because whatever the cause, it is not going to be pretty, as it will change the world as a place to live substantially.

What is not in doubt is that the burning of fossil fuels does release back into the atmosphere, CO2 previously nicely sequestered out of the atmosphere into inert forms like trees, other plants, animals, shellfish, etc, at a time when it was in much higher quantities, and the world was a much hotter, steamier place, and inhospitable to species like us. Now, we are steadily releasing it again.

It therefore appears to me entirely possible that a process that can take that excess CO2, and convert it into a fuel, therefore allowing us to stop burning other sources like coal and oil, could well be win win all round. If that's the process your people are into, well, best of luck with it. It would be huge, really huge...

Coming back on thread, it would also obviate the need to burn alcohol as well.

ranger42c said:

I keep thinking fuel -- or a fuel additive -- derived from poppy seeds would be the next new thing. Solve the fuel issue and Afghanistan's economy in one fell swoop. (In case anyone runs with that idea, I'll be happy to accept modest royalties.)

-Chris

Click to expand...

Algae is great fuel source. Some of our consortium companies are working on making that become a really fast and economical turn over substance for producing "green" fuel. Its scalable ramifications as a fuel source are enormous. There are many problems to conquer in order to bring algae production to a scale that can help power the world.

Peter B said:

Art, I get it. I was just a bit bemused with some of your terms, like..."CO2 as a base product for a global scope new fuel source." Also..."transformed into fungible, drop-in gasoline, diesel, etc"
It was the those terms that I was mainly confused by.

Click to expand...

Global "scope" sometimes supplants the term global "scale".

"Fungible" means fully mixable into and with other products of like kind. I.e., CO2 based liquid hydrocarbon fuels could easily be mixed in with refined fossil and/or forms of "green" liquid hydrocarbon fuels .

"Drop-in" is slang for capability of being able to be dropped into any container already holding similar liquid hydrocarbon fuel... again pointing to the fact - it is fungible!

ethanol is a fraud on the American taxpayer to support Iowa corn farmers. It uses more energy to produce than it provides and reduces fuel mileage when used because it contains less energy that gasoline.
because it mixes readily with water it is not a good boat fuel when mixed with gasoline unless used quickly.

Trying to not get political but back in the early '70s while studying Marine Biology we had lengthy discussions on using ethanol as fuel in vehicles. Our discussions basically centered around why would we take a food supply and use it as fuel and the ethics of doing so. To a person we all agreed that using methanol from waste products made much more sense than using corn/sugar cane, etc. And this was coming from a bunch of somewhat liberal kids! Unfortunately back then methanol conversion to ethanol wasn't a viable option. It is now! But due to politics (read that as money coming from taxpayers going through politicians sticky hands to a small sector of our economy) methanol > ethanol may never replace ethanol from corn. I spent my entire career in the "oil patch" but recognize the value of going to a green fuel. But let's do it the smart way.

folivier said:

Trying to not get political but back in the early '70s while studying Marine Biology we had lengthy discussions on using ethanol as fuel in vehicles. Our discussions basically centered around why would we take a food supply and use it as fuel and the ethics of doing so. To a person we all agreed that using methanol from waste products made much more sense than using corn/sugar cane, etc. And this was coming from a bunch of somewhat liberal kids! Unfortunately back then methanol conversion to ethanol wasn't a viable option. It is now! But due to politics (read that as money coming from taxpayers going through politicians sticky hands to a small sector of our economy) methanol > ethanol may never replace ethanol from corn. I spent my entire career in the "oil patch" but recognize the value of going to a green fuel. But let's do it the smart way.

Click to expand...

folivier

Unfortunately... "do[ing] it the smart way" is not in the general genetics of our human race, as a whole - historically and currently speaking that is. But, waiting until the last second for accomplishing needed actions is in our genes. "Business as Usual" regarding the fuel industry has gained too much inertia to be quickly/easily redirected into "smart way" procedures.

When our planet's climate and ecosystem become so changed, and obviously continuing to accelerate into their many forms of changes, that writing is more clearly on the wall regarding potential for humanity's demise... then and only then will the big guns come out in full force to try and "Save our/the World"

Hopefully during the years leading to this forced sea change in attitude there have been enough new-source fuel alternatives developed to enable continuation of life in general. Momentum is building... but... business as usual in the fuel industry still has strong inertia-hold on same o', same o' procedures.