Most Frustrating "Repair" Job Upper Helm Pump

This post will most likely result in more of me venting but I do have a question or two.

I bought my boat in November last year and on day two of bringing her home the upper helm pump developed a slow leak. She got me home and I sought a repair facility to fix her up. Here we are 7 months later and I am still dealing with this guy and my upper helm is back in pieces for the 3rd time.

I finally had enough of all the lack of communication from them and getting the run around so I had a friend of mine who happens to be an attorney ;-) give him a call because I just could not speak anymore without sounding like a true sailor (which I was). He mentioned to her that he has approx. $1000.00 in labor against me as well as parts.....

So here is my question. The helm pump is a Capilano 275. The only parts I am aware that he has purchased are 2 maybe 3 seal kits to re-build it. How difficult of a task can that be? Ive looked at it and just cannot see how $1000.00 in labor for them to keep trying over and over to actually do it right seems appropriate? He did mention that this particular pump is obsolete and that parts are coming from Canada but it surely does not take 7 months for them to arrive. Guess I am looking for information as to what this should reasonably cost me, because I feel as though the bill that is to come is going to be way over inflated. Have not gotten a final bill yet, cant wait for that.

I am seriously frustrated. This is my first "big boat" and the entire 7 months I have owned it I have been limited as to how far I can take it because I have been patiently waiting for this guy to do the right thing.

When we bought our boat three years ago we had to have both helms rebuilt because the seals were leaking from no use (owner dead 7 years). It took the very good and very highly reguarded hydraulics guy four maybe five trips to get the job done. The seals kept leaking. She is good now but only if I use her.

A full replacement pump seems to cost about $1,000 assuming the 1275 is the appropriate replacement:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Cap...=org.mozilla:en-US:official&safe=off&tbm=shop

I'd pay what you owe and take the boat to a high quality, reputable yard that has real experience with refitting things like this - read reviews on them. Replace the old pump. It should probably cost another $1,000 in labor and shouldn't take more than a couple of days.

Too many yards attempt to do things that they shouldn't be doing. For engines, steering, windlass, thruster, and other things you rely on, you've got to use a high quality yard. Let the other yards replace water pumps if needed.

our 40' boat had mechanical steering when we bought her. it took one day to tear out the mechanical gear, one day to install the hydraulic system and another 1/2 day to install hydraulic autopilot.

We bought a Hydrive system complete but you can buy just the helm pump from them, several other manufacturers or even e-bay. New units will come with fairly simple installation instructions.

Buy a new helm pump and install it yourself, it's really not difficult as all the hard work (hydraulic lines & ram mounting) is already done.

Don't you love the mechanical repair business? You pay people to show you that they don't know what they are doing. It's bad for cars, and it's really bad for boats.

Try $600 to replace a impeller. Reason given was excess labor because mechanic dropped the key into intake hose and had to disassemble to recover. Oh I forgot....he also needed more time because he was not familiar with the boat! Well Cummins is a pretty rare bird.

I can't imagine paying someone to do something as simple as changing an impeller.
You must have money to burn

I feel your pain. I've had similar experiences with "simple" repairs. But the guy is definitely doing something wrong -- Last Friday we replaced the old Wagner AX model upper helm pump on my Willard 40 with a salvaged unit. It took 3 hours to drain the fluid, remove the wheel and pump, replace the "O" rings in the replacement unit, then reinstall everything, plus refill and bleed the system. Honestly, I can't imagine this job taking more than 1/2 a day?!

From what I learned on this DIY project, either it has bad seals or the hydraulic pipe/hose connection(s) need reseating. At this stage, I'd simply replace the old Capilano with a new pump for around $1000. Just make certain the bolt pattern and steering shaft are same dimensions as the one you're replacing. To simply swap out and bleed the lines, labor should not exceed 2 hours. Good luck, and report back on the outcome.

I rebuilt my lower helm pump with a parts kit from Jamestown Distributors. The parts were so cheap I bought two sets for when the upper helm pump starts leaking. It took me a whole half hour to break down the pump and replace the seals. The real time killer is purging the system on the boat.

The money I pay people to fix my crap or my stuff I screw up I consider a tax on my laziness or stupidity...

Thats the only way I can justify it...

And I DO pay people to do stuff for me on occasion. I try and get them to do it while I can watch and observe. I will even pay them more to do that since they are going slower to teach me...

My F/B helm started leaking on our 1st cruise also, I bought a seal kit off eBay and a half days labor it was fixed. After 4 years the lower helm started to seep and I did it in less time and it's harder to get to. I have Hynautic helm pumps the seal kits are about $35.00. I could not afford to own a boat if I had to pay for all the repairs, I don't do gelcoat or any similar type work I pay someone who has the skill to make that repair. I would not of got a lawyer involved if I couldn't do the work, I would of asked around the other boaters for their recommendation for a quality mechanic and pay the 1st guy off and went to someone other boaters had confidence in.

Greetings,
Give the state of NC a call and ask what recourse you have as a consumer.
File a Complaint

Firefly! Best show EVER !!!

Greetings,
Mr. s. Haven't had but 5 cups of coffee yet and I don't understand your comment.

Firefly was a show that ran on FX for two season. It has a cult following.

Let's see. Best way to describe it....??

Futuristic Sci fi western with Chinese influences??

Litterally my favorite show of all time.

Litton,
Sorry to hear that.
Seals should be available from a good seal house even if he had to pull and send the old pieces as samples. It is possible to damage a seal upon installation and if the shaft is worn then speedi sleeves and appropriate seals should take care of the problem. I would not expect significant wear on the shaft from low speed operation like this. Just hardening and shrinking of the various rubber parts allowing weeps.

I've not yet had to do mine so can't comment on how difficult it is to get it right. I have done a fair bit of hydraulics over the years, not expert, and had similar stuff apart. It shouldn't be that difficult. And 7 months is plain ridiculous. The guy is taking advantage of you.

Have you kept notes? I don't know your laws at all but I expect you could tell him to take a hike. Find someone else and get a new pump if need be. Talk to Teleflex, phone or e-mail them about what would be suitable if not already done.

Good luck

capilano

I also have a Capilano unit that leaks. However it is such slow leak and knowing that it is old design I just have a oil absorbent pad under the drip. At this point it is not worth the expense of replacing the unit. I just check the level and move on.

Both my pumps are leaking. Seems like the full seal kit is the way to go to fix the problem permanently


The Marine Installer's Rant: The leaking Capilano caper

My Wagner, model AW upper helm pump is leaking

My upper helm pump has sprung a leak. I take it the seals have to be replaced. In Richmond, B.C., Canada there is a guy who used to work at Summer Equipment in Vancouver. Summer Equipment supplied parts for Wagner pumps.
I hope the firm he works at now has seal kits. He works at an industrial pump place. Wish me luck and if you have any advice on replacing the seals feel free to give it.

I have a Wagner parts list and diagrams in pdf format but it is too big for attatching to this forum. If the moderators are following this and can tell me how to down load a 11mb pdf file on Wagner pumps please tell me how

In 90% case of leaking pump is the front shaft o-ring, and that is easy job. Pull out the steering wheel, few philips screw on front cover. Dig out the old one and replace with new. The most consuming time is to bleed the system. Need another person to turn the wheel as you loosen ( and tide) the bleeding screw. Time is 2 -3 hr and cost around $50

When I got LUNASEA home after a few trips both Capilanos started leaking. Bought 2 new pumps and brought boat down to New Orleans to a well know ship yard for installation. WELL after 4 weeks and 4 GRAND all was said to be well, except my check book, but lesson learned get written quote. Owner said it took 2 men 40 hours to remove and replace both pumps and one was leaking when I got back home. After much talking they drove to repair leaks.

Helm pump

I too had a leading cablino helm pump. Ordered seal kit and when taking it apart found rocker arm/ bracket and tried to find one. Seastar would not be making them for 4 months! Remove lower and upper heads and switched as we drive from the upper held all the time. Pulling both pumps after draining the fluid and installing took 3 hours and installed a new seal kit in the new upper helm and will install new rocker when I get time. New helms are available and parts can be hard to come by ,by anyone with a mechanical knowledge can do it. Messy yes . I believe you got taken for your work ,need to be there went they are. I can afford the boat ,but not the mechanic,there are few that are good and others are not.

If it's the front seal it's not even a special part just a x (also known as quad) o-ring.

I can see why your frustrated.

But how would you like to remove a thousand pounds or so of concrete ballast from your lazerette laced w lots of steel punchings? ..... w two sizes of jack hammers. Can't see or breath too well down there w the jack hammers running but we got it done w/o damaging the hull. That's the worst job I've had to do. Actually I only did about 30% of the removal .. the yard did the rest.

Had a leaky stern tube so sea water got into cracks in the concrete and reached the steel punchings resulting in corrosion that expanded and pushed the bulkhead about 1'" fwd. That was the tell-tale. Replaced w all lead.

My Wagner, model AW upper helm pump

When I took my Wagner helm pump into get serviced at Olympic drives in Richmond, he said he had just finished a similar pump a couple days before. He worked at the company that had manufactured them some 30 years ago.

He also said when I reinstalled the pump, not to turn the helm. If I wasn't going to drain and bleed the whole system, I should carefully fill the hydraulic tubing leading to the upper helm pump as full as possible, then continue to fill the upper helm pump and let the system naturally bubble itself free of air.

Have any of you heard of reinstalling an upper helm pump this way? Every thing I have read has two people turning the two helms in opposite directions to clear the lines?

The Capilano steering pump is the simplest hydraulic pump ever made. Even the variable piston plate ones are simple. The only place they can leak is the steering shaft o ring or the plate adjustment o ring, either of which can be easily replaced by anyone. It aint rocket surgery. I cant even start to recount the number of times that I've heard stories of "thousands of dollars to repair" these units. Well, caveat emptor.

I installed my hose so that it goes down close to vertically from the rudder cylinder and then gradually rises fwd to the helm pump. This way any air in the system dos'nt get trapped. To bleed I turn the helm all the way and stop. Then wait some time until any air in the hose has time to migrate to the pump. Usually overnight. I replace fluid lost at the pump fill hole. Then I turn the helm fairly quickly all the way the other direction and wait for the air to migrate. When no fluid is needed at the pump there is no air in the system.

When you turn the helm quickly one way any air in the cylinder or short downward hose gets pumped into the part of the hose that leads up constantly and gradually to the pump. That's why this system works.

How about the standard capilano air bleed unit. Just open the screw and crank the wheel in one direction until the air is gone. Or, second best, install a bypass valve at the solid to flex couplings befor the ram. Then just open the valve and turn the wheel. The air in the cylinder is a no brainer to bleed.

My Capilano upper helm pump was leaking from the steering wheel shaft. Knowing nothing I took it to a well known yard for repair. They told me it needed to be removed and sent out for repair. Also said it would be expensive. As I was in the middle of a cruise I decided to wait until after the cruise.

In the interim I searched this forum and someone had posted that the fix was easy. Remove the wheel, remove the cover plate behind the wheel (2 Philips head screws), remove the o-ring that sits behind the cover plate (used a dental pick), replace with a #15 o-ring (Home Depot), reassemble and done.

Job took 15 minutes, cost $1.75 and hasn't leaked a drop since. So easy that Marin's dog could do it.

I don't have a Capiliano helm, it's a Wagner AW. The technician says many owners have done it. But Olympic drives will replace all the gaskets and seals, O rings and will clean it up. For a couple of hundred dollars, it's money well spent