Discretion is the better part of valor

Thanks all for your comments and questions.


"If need be fine, otherwise forget it. Be assured when in those conditions or near so, the mind wonders when the last time the fuel filters were drained and changed!"
I had checked the Racors within a week prior to leaving on this trip and they were clear. I'm probably not as attentive to doing stuff like that but I was down in the engine room and checked the oil levels and the Racors.


"How fast were you going into those waves? "
See below....


"Yet at some point gaining experience in ever increasing discomfort gives you the experience to know when conditions are going from uncomfortable to dangerous to survival."
See below....


"The question is, "did you try varying your speed to see what made it better or worse?" I don't know the speed capabilities of your boat but in the worst conditions you seemed to be hitting the waves at the worst speed and getting the full impact. Now, perhaps you had experimented and that was the best. Every boat is different. "


OK, as to the speed we were traveling, we were holding at around 9.5-10kts. I did slow down a bit earlier but it didn't seem to help much. The speed we were traveling is my hull speed and the boat seems to like it at that speed.


Part of our needing/wanting to hold at that speed was a time constraint. The lock we had to pass through has downstream locks at 930, 1230, 1530, and 1830. It's a Corps of Engineers lock and they run a pretty tight schedule. Depending on the lockmaster that is on duty he may or may not allow you to lock through if you are late. IMO it depends a lot of what kind of day he's having.


When we set out I had planned our departure time to allow PLENTY of time. We were held up for about 20 minutes right off the bat because we had to wait for a railroad bridge to lift for us. Trains ALWAYS have the first priority and if one is approaching you just have to wait. We pass under that particular bridge often enough that the bridgemaster and I are almost on a first name basis. I treat them very well on the radio ("yes sir" and "thank you sir") and they are very accommodating to our boat.


I calculated our necessary speed (to reach the lock on time) and set out at hull speed knowing we could reach the lock on time. The thing is, if you don't reach the lock on time and they don't let you lock through, you might as well turn back to the slip, wait 3 hours for the next lockage, the set out again. Or drift around by the lock for 3 hours.


By way of a bit of history, I grew up on Lake Huron. We often boated in 3'-4' waves in a 16' Thompson with a Johnson 50hp on the back. I also sailed in those waves a LOT. I'm used to waves and know that the boat will handle a lot more than I will.


Also, 3 years ago I helped a guy take a boat from Seattle to Stockton, CA. That was my first ocean experience and I made the trip to get that experience. There's a thread on here somewhere and if you search for "Stockton" I'm sure you will find it. On that trip we encountered waves much bigger than what I was in last weekend and I learned a lot about boat handling in big waves.


I've often felt that most people boat "in their own back yard." By that I mean they don't stretch their boundaries to find out what they are capable of. They only boat on calm days, never at night, always in their home waters and never, ever consider taking the boat out when it's snotty out there.


I'm kind of the opposite of that. I like to stretch my limits. I like to see what I am capable of. I already know the boat can handle much more than I can so I'm not worried about putting us in jeopardy (Alex, I'll take "Safe Boating" for a thousand!")


I've also boated through that stretch of river on various size boats from 30' to 60' and have an understanding of how each size reacts to various size waves.


The flip side of that is I've learned over the years to be cautious. I was about ready to turn around and head for home when we hit that big wave. My Galley Wench confirmed my thoughts about heading back so we did. At that point I had two concerns: First for her comfort and safety and second my hesitation to go through the lock with that kind of wind blowing. Combining those two factors made the decision an easy one: Let's go back home.


So today I'm headed down to the boat to try a repair job on the struts for the forward hatch. I took a look at them and it appears where each broke it was a clean break. I picked up some epoxy that's made for plastics. If I can get it to work it will save me having to drill out the rivets that hold the struts in place and replace the struts.

You can have clean Racors and they can still clog in those conditions...the question is are your tanks clean? I was in conditions very similar to what you were in(solid 30-40knots). The boat was not liking it. I was not liking it. My GF was not liking it. And when the left engine started to lose RPM, it made the decision to turn around very easy. Running WITH the weather in those conditions is much better than running against it. The engine never quit. It just started varying RPM by about 200. Put the boat up and I came back to change the filters the next day and all was well.

Baker said:

You can have clean Racors and they can still clog in those conditions...the question is are your tanks clean?

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That is where murphy-guage equipped dual racors (the kind with a selector valve) come in handy. (And a stand up engine room, too.)

GFC...When I worked for a Sea Ray dealership, they had a 55 that was a trde in and used for all sorts of company functions...It was certainly capable of what you were in and actually the videos show it giving a pretty nice ride.


The spray is always an eye opener when the winds gust up over thirty...one second no big deal and the next you feel you are like being in a submarine...way up in a flybridge.


I have no big river experience so I enjoyed the video lessons.

Shrew said:

I'd call that snotty, but not outrageous. That looks like what we boat in fairly regularly in New England. I would have slowed down a little and tried not to take them directly on the nose. It should have eased the motion a bit. It might make you travel out of your way and not in a straight line, but it would be worth IMHO.

Click to expand...

This last weekend we had a bit of wind out of the North for a bit. Not the usual direction and with plenty of fetch the wind waves were picking up. I gave my son the helm for a bit and went below to chat with my wife. I came up about 10 minutes later and noticed that we were getting pretty close to the lee shore and there was a shallow point ahead of us. I pointed this out to my son who said that he had altered course to lessen the affect of the waves. Now, I am sure that eventually he would have altered course to stay off the hard stuff, but...

Sometimes a course change is great, sometimes not so much.

BandB said:

The captains who trained us didn't take us to the brink of disaster but they did take us far beyond comfortable and we very much benefited. We knew we were safe with them there. The first time, we were amazed how well the boat handled conditions most never go out in and we wouldn't normally, but they can arise. We also learned to handle them and by the end of a few very grueling hours we felt far more confident. We may have improved our skills more that day than any other. Certainly did our knowledge and confidence.

Click to expand...

Good point. 30 years ago during my flight instruction, bad weather that was not IFR was an excuse for my instructor to have me see exactly how much crosswind a little Cessna 150 could handle. The pattern would be empty, the tower obliging, so we would use the crosswind runway. Never would I attempt it on my own, but a great learning experience to see what the safe limits were.

I've been out in some rough stuff and took video of it. Got back to shore and played the vid for some friends. Did this without previewing the vid myself. On the vid it looked nothing like it did in real life. They called me a wimp.

Ski in NC said:

I've been out in some rough stuff and took video of it. Got back to shore and played the vid for some friends. Did this without previewing the vid myself. On the vid it looked nothing like it did in real life. They called me a wimp.

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Same crossing the Albemarle this spring.

Took a couple vids for the record...very underwhelming.....

It's that one in a hundred set that rocks your socks....the one set that never gets recorded..

Had one sling enough water against the front windows that had me wishing I had selected thicker glass when I replaced my windows....fortunately it was only one for that crossing and everything held.

Not much bigger than forecast on average..but as the forecasts say...a few are gonna suprised you.

Ski in NC said:

I've been out in some rough stuff and took video of it. Got back to shore and played the vid for some friends. Did this without previewing the vid myself. On the vid it looked nothing like it did in real life. They called me a wimp.

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I have experienced the same thing and concluded that there are two possible explanations: 1) the video was wrong (didn't accurately portray real life, as stated above), and 2) our senses deceived us.

I have come to the conclusion that it is mostly the later. Once I was offshore fishing with a friend in his 38' boat, with my boat serving as a little mother ship. Our perception, while in his boat, was that it was 4'+ seas at about 6 seconds -- what I call washing machine conditions. When we got back on my boat (which is a little bigger and stabilized) a short while later, the seas seemed to immediately subside noticeably. Not only was the ride better, but we sincerely estimated smaller seas at a longer interval. Careful review of our go-pro video demonstrated that the sea state had never changed.

Ski in NC said:

I've been out in some rough stuff and took video of it. Got back to shore and played the vid for some friends. Did this without previewing the vid myself. On the vid it looked nothing like it did in real life. They called me a wimp.

Click to expand...

Well, unless you have 3D video, it's very difficult to capture. I've seen videos where the waves didn't look that bad but then looking at the boats and seeing how they were being tossed around, you quickly realize how bad they were.

I have yet to see a picture that lives up to the sea state, whether taken
from the boat or the beach!!!

Ted

Ted said:

I have yet to see a picture that lives up to the sea state, whether taken
from the boat or the beach!!!

Ted

Click to expand...

From overhead perhaps?

It's not uncommon for spray shooting over my pilothouse roof (and streams of water running along the decks) when encountering steep, five-foot waves often encountered in eastern San Pablo and Suisun bays. Slowing the boat from six to five knots helps reduce crew discomfort.

BandB said:

From overhead perhaps?

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In a few cases I may have been called a "chicken", but not by my"crew"!
However, on inspection, could not find any feathers. This limited the
"elevation" idea. Also no snowbird.
Thanks for response.

Ted

GFC, how did the 180 degree turn go after sounding the retreat? Careful timing, looking for a gap?

“That is where murphy-gauge equipped dual racors (the kind with a selector valve) come in handy. (And a stand up engine room, too.)”
I've never heard them called that but if you're talking about the vacuum gauges that mount on top of the Racors, that is what I have and I watch them fairly closely.
“Did this without previewing the vid myself. On the vid it looked nothing like it did in real life.”
That's the same experience I've had.
“I have experienced the same thing and concluded that there are two possible explanations: 1) the video was wrong (didn't accurately portray real life, as stated above), and 2) our senses deceived us.”
Yup, I agree. I think it's a combination of the two. It's difficult to gauge the height of something when you're looking down on it. I also think that videos just do not accurately portray what wave conditions are. Also, because the wind was on our port bow at first and then directly on the bow, and because I was inside the "windows", you didn't get the sound of the wind.
“Well, unless you have 3D video, it's very difficult to capture. I've seen videos where the waves didn't look that bad but then looking at the boats and seeing how they were being tossed around, you quickly realize how bad they were.”

“GFC, how did the 180 degree turn go after sounding the retreat? Careful timing, looking for a gap?”
Waves tend to come in sets of 3 or 4. I watched a couple of sets go beneath us and made my turn in the waves between two sets. The turn was actually a non-event with almost no side to side rocking.

Here's a video I took when I helped deliver that boat to California. We were off the coast of WA and that turned out to be the roughest water we encountered on the whole trip south.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKgc8DBUi8M

The boat in this video is a 5788 Bayliner, about a foot longer and a foot wider than my boat. It seemed to be bouncing around more than my boat did in my videos but I think that was more a factor of taking the waves on the stbd bow rather than straight on.

The video/pictures is ALWAYS less than the real thing. Conversely, if it looks bad in the pictures/video.... it was BAD.

GFC, I never quite got WHY the hatch opened. Thousands of miles of sailing in/near/and off shore, never had a GOOD hatch open itself. (Stupidly left a few open and soaked my bed, but that's another story)

Oscar, I'm guessing a bit here but I think the hatch was fully down when l looked at it while untying dock lines before departure, but I never felt it to make sure it would not lift.


When we stuck the bow into that wave I suspect some of the water got under the hatch and lifted it up with enough force that it broke the two struts that are there to hold it in place.


There was a LOT of water that came in with that wave. The bedding was soaked clear through to the frame and plywood beneath the bedding. Also, the floor got soaked.


We put fans on the carpet to dry it but it stayed wet then damp until today. I left the forward hatch open yesterday to get that humid air of and let some dry air into the forward stateroom to help dry things out. Between the two fans and the drier air it finally got dried out today.


I looked at the struts to see where they broke and both broke with clean breaks. I picked up some epoxy that is specifically made for plastics and glued them today. I'll see if that holds. If not, it's easy enough to replace the two struts.

Here are a few more photos from the weekend. Sorry they're a bit fuzzy, the lens on my phone must have been dirty.


Here's the entrance to the lock. Unlike Ice Harbor lock which we usually go through, this one has a roadway that goes over the lock. They raise it for taller boats.



This also is different from Ice Harbor. This is the downstream gate. It is opened and closed by a large(!) hydraulic ram. Ice Harbor has a large guillotine gate they raise and lower.



When the gate is fully opened it tucks into areas on the sidewalls.



This is a shot looking downstream and it shows how tall these locks are. The land you see beyond the gate is the level of the downstream part of the river. When we came back through the lock on Sunday we were raised about 85'.



Here's a shot of the spillway. I don't know why this one and the next are so small. They're spilling enough water to satisfy the salmon lovers and other environmental groups that sued years ago to force the USACE to release more water.



For a parting shot, a view of the sunset on Saturday night.

As a PS to this thread, I found a 2-part Epoxy that is specially made for plastics. I had looked at the hatch struts and where they broke both broke cleanly. I went to the boat yesterday, mixed up the Epoxy and applied it. It took only 20-25 minutes to set up but I gave it an hour. It seems to have bonded the parts back together.


Now to see if it holds. If not; I replace the struts.

GFC said:

“That is where murphy-gauge equipped dual racors (the kind with a selector valve) come in handy. (And a stand up engine room, too.)”
I've never heard them called that but if you're talking about the vacuum gauges that mount on top of the Racors, that is what I have and I watch them fairly closely.

Click to expand...

A murphy gauge (as I understand it), has a resetable mechanical indicator that represents the highest value reached. Much more convenient than checking frequently.

I have never heard that term, but I don't get around much. I have only heard that refers to as a gauge with a drag pointer.

Baker said:

You can have clean Racors and they can still clog in those conditions...the question is are your tanks clean? I was in conditions very similar to what you were in(solid 30-40knots). The boat was not liking it. I was not liking it. My GF was not liking it. And when the left engine started to lose RPM, it made the decision to turn around very easy. Running WITH the weather in those conditions is much better than running against it. The engine never quit. It just started varying RPM by about 200. Put the boat up and I came back to change the filters the next day and all was well.

Click to expand...

Which is why I put this on the 'Top off tanks?" thread, John.

"What I don't like is the way so many marine tanks have a fuel pick-up which enters at the top and does not reach to the bottom, which seems to be a recipe for sludge accumulation, and it must get stirred up in rough weather. I suspect that is why so many comment on experiencing clogged filters, something I have never had happen."

My tanks drain from the bottom. (Like Nordhavn) Why don't more manufacturers address this vulnerability you mention?

dhays said:

I have never heard that term, but I don't get around much. I have only heard that refers to as a gauge with a drag pointer.

Click to expand...

A Murphy Gauge is a brand of gauge. It is a mechanical gauge and considered to be the most accurate and most dependable in the business. The drag pointer is a different subject but obviously a Murphy Gauge can have one. I have been chasing a potential hot running engine. A Murphy Gauge screwed into the sending unit hole told me the engine was running at normal temps and it is a gauge or electrical issue causing a hotter indication. If I could have an entire panel of Murphy Gauges I would be a happy dude!!!!