Help this poor old sailor set an anchor...

Impressive. I visited and reviewed website.


Super Max 16, 47 lb. handling weight is the only factor I see as potential bother... due to fact that that I hand deploy and retrieve rode and anchor (with some assistance from drum type windless). Being a life long heavy-weight lifter, understanding body stress points, that much anchor weight would place a pretty heavy stress on back bones and muscles while bent over bow rail with mud in its fluke during haul. Also, dunking time and again to release mud off fluke would be a task even for a weight lifter such as me. Of course, if you had completely automated windless rode/anchor retrieval with pressure wash-down hose on bow... then weight is not a big factor.


Hoping to hear more reports/posts from first hand users on TF of Max Anchors.


http://maxmarineproducts.com/

Glad to see you have revived this great product Steve. I know several veteran cruisers who switched to them and never met an unhappy one. We used one several times in a friend's Hatteras 42 LRC while cruising the Maritime provinces 10 years ago.

Art said:

So, Chris... Was it hard to get the anchor untangled from the old cable it snagged on the bottom??

Just kidding - I'll Google MAX17, seeking info on it.

Click to expand...

Heh... that's what it felt like! No cable in the area, though...

Art said:

Impressive. I visited and reviewed website.

Super Max 16, 47 lb. handling weight is the only factor I see as potential bother... due to fact that that I hand deploy and retrieve rode and anchor (with some assistance from drum type windless). Being a life long heavy-weight lifter, understanding body stress points, that much anchor weight would place a pretty heavy stress on back bones and muscles while bent over bow rail with mud in its fluke during haul. Also, dunking time and again to release mud off fluke would be a task even for a weight lifter such as me. Of course, if you had completely automated windless rode/anchor retrieval with pressure wash-down hose on bow... then weight is not a big factor.

Click to expand...

I don't see a 16 @ 47-lbs lbs on their current website, Art. Pivoting, like ours, @ 42-lbs, and rigid @ 45-lbs.

??

Ours is now the pivoting 17 @ 45-lbs. We had a MAX16 previously, brought over from our earlier boat, smaller than recommended for our current boat, and that always worked fine... but it never did jerk my off my feet.

Anyway, your point about hand-lifting speaks to issues I'd have, too, if we were without an electric windlass. The MAX17, and the leading chain on the rode, is about the heaviest I'd want to try to dead lift... and I wouldn't want to do that often. (Hence the fair-sized Fortress we carry, and used as our primary until I got the windlass installed to handle the MAX.)

And around here, dunking doesn't work all that great, certainly not our lifetime.... so we use a raw water washdown system.

-Chris

Thank you. Sometimes being a small business has its challenges!

Regarding Art's concerns about weight. Fortunately Super MAX is not the only anchor that is heavy. Unfortunately I can not solve that issue. Course you could invite me to cruise with you and I could be your "designated anchor slinger!"

Steve Bedford
Super MAX Anchors
maxmarineproducts.com

ranger42c said:

Heh... that's what it felt like! No cable in the area, though...





I don't see a 16 @ 47-lbs lbs on their current website, Art. Pivoting, like ours, @ 42-lbs, and rigid @ 45-lbs.

??

Ours is now the pivoting 17 @ 45-lbs. We had a MAX16 previously, brought over from our earlier boat, smaller than recommended for our current boat, and that always worked fine... but it never did jerk my off my feet.

Anyway, your point about hand-lifting speaks to issues I'd have, too, if we were without an electric windlass. The MAX17, and the leading chain on the rode, is about the heaviest I'd want to try to dead lift... and I wouldn't want to do that often. (Hence the fair-sized Fortress we carry, and used as our primary until I got the windlass installed to handle the MAX.)

And around here, dunking doesn't work all that great, certainly not our lifetime.... so we use a raw water washdown system.

-Chris

Click to expand...

Chris - on Max website link that is listed in my post # 31, a few up... Punch Anchor tab and then Pricing. Max 16 is listed. Max 17 you mention is of course even heaver. I too use Fortress due to its light weight. Ours is a Fortress 23. Some day I may outfit our Tolly with updated windless retrieval system and wash down hose on bow. But - not currently in my plans.

Steve Bedford said:

Thank you. Sometimes being a small business has its challenges!

Regarding Art's concerns about weight. Fortunately Super MAX is not the only anchor that is heavy. Unfortunately I can not solve that issue. Course you could invite me to cruise with you and I could be your "designated anchor slinger!"

Steve Bedford
Super MAX Anchors
maxmarineproducts.com

Click to expand...

OK, Steve... You're on! Contact me when in SF region. Do remember to bring a Max 16 along for the cruise! I am intrigued with the design of your Max anchor and look forward to learning more from those on TF that have experiences using it.

Art said:

Chris - on Max website link that is listed in my post # 31, a few up... Punch Anchor tab and then Pricing. Max 16 is listed. Max 17 you mention is of course even heaver. I too use Fortress due to its light weight. Ours is a Fortress 23. Some day I may outfit our Tolly with updated windless retrieval system and wash down hose on bow. But - not currently in my plans.

Click to expand...

Hmmm... hadn't looked at that; I was looking at the Specifications page.

Steve: note mis-match between weights on Pricing and Specification pages.

Art, FWIW ours is an FX-37, still -- relatively easily -- liftable.

-Chris

Thanks Chris. We changed some steel specs and that changed the weights slightly. We adjusted the specification page but not the pricing page. Done now. Thanks.
Steve Bedford

WE summer on the Chesapeake and winter in FL. On the Bay we almost never see anyone back down on the anchor. Along the ICW, most cruisers do seem to back down. WE have a 38 foot trawler with a 44# Manson and all chain rode. We let out the required scope (<5:1 if possible) Attach the snubber and then back to 900 or 1000 rpm Our 230 Cummins is probably putting out about 100 hp at that rpm. Just this afternoon (Little Bay VA, 20 miles from Steve Bedford) we watched a 49 foot hunter and a 48 foot Bertram come into this cove and drop the hook. The crews went ashore. Neither had marked their rodes and and neither had more than about 2:1 and neither backed down to set the anchor. Both boats drifted away in winds of less than 10 kt. As others have said, scope is your friend.

"Scope is our your friend"
Of course but you don't need as much scope if you've got an anchor that does considerably better at short scopes. There are times due to geography like small anchorage and deep water or too many other boats in a big anchorage. About the only thing I agree w Peter Smith (the Rocna guy) on is that in small or deep places setting hard at 4 or so to 1 and then shorting up as needed. Even 2-1 if the weather is calm.

tadhanna,
Your Manson is a Supreme I suppose and if so they have demonstrated excellent short scope performance many times in anchor tests even here on our own forum. See the anchor video thread if you have'nt.

ranger42c said:

...the other day..when we were anchoring...the sucker grabbed while deployment we still in progress, still had less than 2:1 scope out, jerked the boat to a stop, kinda caught me by surprise! Chris

Click to expand...

We`ve had that unnerving experience too,within sight of signs indicating an underwater laid cable in Greenwich, near Humbug, on Sydney Harbor. I was apprehensive the signs or cable were inaccurately located and we`d snagged millions of $ worth of telephone cabling but all was well on retrieving. That was with the old now backup CQR knock off that came with the boat.

Nomad Willy. Hey I like your boat. We see a lot of different configurations of the Willard out here on the east coast. To answer your question, yes I have seen the video. And have also anchored in the swift reversing currents in SC and GA. Both have given me a lot of confidence in my Manson. That being said, like many on this forum, I have anchored thousands of times between Maine and the Caribbean. it is no doubt a carry over from the old days when the Danforth anchor was the latest and greatest, but I like scope. So long as there is swinging room, I have never had a problem with too much scope. And our record so far is perfect. I'll probably drag anchor tonight after saying that.

tadhana said:

WE summer on the Chesapeake and winter in FL. On the Bay we almost never see anyone back down on the anchor. Along the ICW, most cruisers do seem to back down. WE have a 38 foot trawler with a 44# Manson and all chain rode. We let out the required scope (<5:1 if possible) Attach the snubber and then back to 900 or 1000 rpm Our 230 Cummins is probably putting out about 100 hp at that rpm. Just this afternoon (Little Bay VA, 20 miles from Steve Bedford) we watched a 49 foot hunter and a 48 foot Bertram come into this cove and drop the hook. The crews went ashore. Neither had marked their rodes and and neither had more than about 2:1 and neither backed down to set the anchor. Both boats drifted away in winds of less than 10 kt. As others have said, scope is your friend.

Click to expand...

Backing down such as you and I and some others do is also our anchoring friend!!

tadhanna,
Yup I've never had too much scope either.
But it's nice to know your limits before you're forced to go beyond them.
We've anchored quite a number of times in Alaska at 2-1 but never in any wind. I use 4-1 most of the time when there's room. Once I used too much scope (10-1) and all I got was too much mud. Black and stinky. I'll never anchor at 10-1 again.

Willy likes your nice comment.

The experts say that there is really no point whatsoever using more then 1 : 7 scope. I virtually never use more then 1 : 3 or 4 if in good weather, and 1 : 5 if a bit breezy. Have never needed 1 : 7 thus far in 14 years anchoring out.

dhays said:

Well, if I've been a good boy, I get to feel good after I hit the sack as well.

Click to expand...

Not really. Just remember, in BC and Alaska the big currents and tidal swings combined with a change in wind direction will mostly dislodge the anchor from its original set about 5 hours after you set it.

Now you are relying upon the ability of the anchor to reset itself. Just as Eric noted.

BTW and to disrupt this love affair, your new Sarca is not the best anchor. (David, you are a brave man for starting this thread). You should have got an Ultra like Delfin's for the ultimate bragging rights. Or a Vulcan for half the cost of the Sarca. Or just stick with your current one that hasn't put your vessel on the rocks yet. Or has it

"Now you are relying upon the ability of the anchor to reset itself. Just as Eric noted."

Might as well rely on the Lottery for your retirement plan.

The use of a second anchor set 180 to the first has been done since rocks for anchors went out of style.

The #2 anchor can be quite light , say 45 fwd 12 aft or 60 fwd 20 aft as if it does drag it gives the larger anchor time to turn with the load , rather than just flip out.

As many folks will be departing about 12 hours after arriving , pulling the rear anchor is a snap.

As you gunkhole your way down the AICW, virtually every anchorage will feature a reversing tidal current, often quite strong, and clocking winds are frequent. We single-anchored with a Delta (the horror!) about 200 times in those conditions, often for days at a time and did just fine. I did set the anchor alarm function I had on the Furuno RD 30 at my bedside so that it would buzz me when the boat rotated (you could set an alarm if you went too far from a set waypoint), as I liked to make sure all was well, which it always was. I had a normal anchor alarm too for staying inside the extended scope-defined circle. Still never hesitated to go to shore or into town either.

caltexflanc said:

As you gunkhole your way down the AICW, virtually every anchorage will feature a reversing tidal current, often quite strong, and clocking winds are frequent. We single-anchored with a Delta (the horror!) about 200 times in those conditions, often for days at a time and did just fine. I did set the anchor alarm function I had on the Furuno RD 30 at my bedside so that it would buzz me when the boat rotated (you could set an alarm if you went too far from a set waypoint), as I liked to make sure all was well, which it always was. I had a normal anchor alarm too for staying inside the extended scope-defined circle. Still never hesitated to go to shore or into town either.

Click to expand...

Type/model anchor used... rode type... average scope?

FF said:

"Now you are relying upon the ability of the anchor to reset itself. Just as Eric noted."

Might as well rely on the Lottery for your retirement plan.

The use of a second anchor set 180 to the first has been done since rocks for anchors went out of style.

The #2 anchor can be quite light , say 45 fwd 12 aft or 60 fwd 20 aft as if it does drag it gives the larger anchor time to turn with the load , rather than just flip out.

As many folks will be departing about 12 hours after arriving , pulling the rear anchor is a snap.

Click to expand...

And this FF is why we ruminate over what is the right single anchor and rode.

Art said:

Type/model anchor used... rode type... average scope?

Click to expand...

Art, we cruise the ICW every year. We are 38 foot trawler. 44# Mantus with all chain rode and I aim for 5:1 in protected anchorages and 7:1 in areas with strong reversing currents. It is my contention that if you can anchor in GA you can anchor almost anywhere. The only place where I have seen boats using two anchors, is the derelict boats in south FL.

Tom my friend,
There's no such thing as "right" anchor.
There's better and not so better.
Like the Rocna. Really good holding at long scope and not so good short.
Like the Fortress. Really really good on soft bottoms not so good on rocks.
Like the SARCA. Could be the most dependable in the world but only average performance in ultimate holding power contests, like many others.
Like my Dreadnought. If the weather's not bad .. instant setting on almost any bottom imaginable.
Like Arts Danforth. Good holding power in most situations most of the time but stubs it's toe fairly often and pinches careless peoples fingers at times.
Like my XYZ. Super good holding power but awkward on the bow.
Spade anchors have very high performance and very dependable but gets slightly bested in ultimate holding probably due to it's rather large ballast chamber.
Like the Manson Supreme. Almost top dog holding but dredges up stuff from the bottom not unlike the Danforth but has super good short scope performance.
Like like like .....

There's no "right" anchor Tom. And there's no wrong anchor either. You logged thousands of miles, months, years w an anchor most would'nt hang on their bow. Yup .. the Vulcan is bound to beat that but it's basically just another anchor and soon we will know it's weak and strong points. There's lots of different anchor designs on the market and singling out what's best or right will continue to be difficult until one design becomes the one left standing. Like hydraulic brakes on cars. Nobody offers anything else as it has been proven that hydraulic is better. But we're still very much experimenting w anchors so no one is best.
Just like there's no perfect car or boat.

Art said:

Type/model anchor used... rode type... average scope?

Click to expand...

Read the post again. 88# of the named model 3/8 BBB, typically 5:1 scope. Often 3:1 In benign conditions and sticky bottoms. As much as 7:1 If really bad. About 20 feet of snubbed bridle 3/4" three strand though I used just a single length attached with a rolling hitch for a long while in some sustained 20+ on winds.
And that's all I have to say about that!

I think.

caltexflanc said:

Read the post again. 88# of the named model 3/8 BBB, typically 5:1 scope. Often 3:1 In benign conditions and sticky bottoms. As much as 7:1 If really bad. About 20 feet of snubbed bridle 3/4" three strand though I used just a single length attached with a rolling hitch for a long while in some sustained 20+ on winds.
And that's all I have to say about that!

I think.

Click to expand...

There ya go thinking again!

"The experts say that there is really no point whatsoever using more then 1 : 7 scope. I virtually never use more then 1 : 3 or 4 if in good weather, and 1 : 5 if a bit breezy. Have never needed 1 : 7 thus far in 14 years anchoring out."

I am sure we can find "experts" saying contradictory statements about everything, including recommended scope length. Rudy and Jill Sechez, "experts" on anchoring and authors on the topic, routinely anchor with 10:1. I know others who are simply long time cruisers all over the world who are not authors on the topic but who I believe are experts also routinely use 10:1. Whether it is 3:1, 5:1, 7:1, 10:1, you the operator have to feel confident that your anchor and scope length will hold you in the most adverse weather and sea conditions in the area where you are anchored. Some report they only anchor with a 2:1 scope. Fine if that works for you. I do know some indisputable facts:
1. The longer the scope, smaller the angle between the rode attachment point and the seabed. Every anchor has a manufacturerd "angle" between the fluke to the shank. Every anchor has a "sweet spot" angle for maximum seabed penetration and seabed. Knowing that angle is important and the scope length should not deviate too far from that optimal angle.
2. No anchor manufacture I know says "to properly weigh anchor, lay out more scope to 7:1 or greater and pull the anchor our of the seabed." They tell you to shorten the scope approaching 0:0 to change the angle of seabed penetration to release the anchor.

Personally I believe the 2:1 scope length more approaches the weighing anchor angle than I am comfortable with.

Steve Bedford
Super MAX Anchors
maxmarineproducts.com

I am in the 7 to 1 is max for normal anchoring.

This helped me decide...

www.marinehowto.com

Also the anchoring videos posted suprised most as to the real effectiveness of scopes even below 3 to 1.

And finally, the calculations done involving the energy required to lift chain to near straight at larger scopes did it for me.

Storm anchoring in all but the most secure anchorages deserves it's own topic....day to day anchoring is no more related to storm anchoring than seamanship survival tactics are to day to day cruising.

And yes I know about williwaws and severe thuderstorm microbursts,etc..etc... ant those for most can be managed in different ways.

10 to 1 scope I can see being used in extreme situstions, but for day to day anchoring, the link above shows especially for all chain rodes to be pretty extreme.

Steve Bedford;456422 [COLOR=black said:

Every anchor has a manufacturerd "angle" between the fluke to the shank. Every anchor has a "sweet spot" angle for maximum seabed penetration and seabed. Knowing that angle is important and the scope length should not deviate too far from that optimal angle.[/COLOR]

Click to expand...

Worth emphasizing, I think.

Hence useful to start with the manufacturer's recommendations for their specific anchor(s), which can usually trump al the various generic guidelines.


FWIW, our anchors came with instructions.

-Chris

psneeld said:

I am in the 7 to 1 is max for normal anchoring.

This helped me decide...

www.marinehowto.com

Also the anchoring videos posted suprised most as to the real effectiveness of scopes even below 3 to 1.

And finally, the calculations done involving the energy required to lift chain to near straight at larger scopes did it for me.

Storm anchoring in all but the most secure anchorages deserves it's own topic....day to day anchoring is no more related to storm anchoring than seamanship survival tactics are to day to day cruising.

And yes I know about williwaws and severe thuderstorm microbursts,etc..etc... ant those for most can be managed in different ways.

10 to 1 scope I can see being used in extreme situstions, but for day to day anchoring, the link above shows especially for all chain rodes to be pretty extreme.

Click to expand...

Good video. This is another place where arbitrary "rules" fail us. One has to consider all elements and the ideal scope will be different for different situations. If I'm anchoring in 100', good bottom, very little tide, I won't require that much scope and wouldn't likely find an area that I could safely anchor with 7:1. I wouldn't likely go above 3:1. However, I see people anchoring in low tide in 6' of water in GA with 9' tides plus not so firm bottoms. 7:1 when they anchor becomes less than 3:1 at high tide. 3:1 becomes 2:1. Also, just less chain out to help in holding. I wouldn't likely anchor less than 5:1.

Good anchoring is not rules read somewhere but using all the knowledge to assess the situation and determine what is right.

Not sure I have ever heard of anyone say they were anchored with the scope at low tide only....if they did they were a raw newbie at anchoring....or at least discussing it.


Just the minimum it becomes with high tide and or swinging out over a steep slope.

psneeld said:

Not sure I have ever heard of anyone say they were anchored with the scope at low tide only....if they did they were a raw newbie at anchoring....or at least discussing it.


Just the minimum it becomes with high tide and or swinging out over a steep slope.

Click to expand...

Actually we did run across a newbie who had done so. He was in an area with 9' tides and had no idea about them. Lucky in low tide he even got to where he was. It was a very calm area. He used about 15' of rode, no chain, in 5' of water and by morning was resting gently in the marshes. He was then asking about it at the marina shortly thereafter.

Obviously I was using an extreme set of examples, but the point is one must make educated judgments based on all elements and conditions from anchor type, to rode type, to bottom type, to tide, to distance from land or other boats to size of boat. When I first started hearing talk about anchoring, I was hearing 7:1 all over the web including forums as an absolute. We don't anchor that much but we've anchored in 100' and sure didn't use 700'. Then we anchor in the Bahamas, off from islands, shallow and not firm and in 6' of water no other boats around, just swimming and exploring the island, we might go 40'.