NTSB renews El Faro VDR search

Reading the above just validates the need for a full Inquiry into the sinking with all available information. Adversarial exploration of the material by interested parties should ensure the Inquiry gets to the cause(s) of the event and finds the remedial action to avoid repetition, to the extent that is possible, so something positive comes out of the disaster.

semi-planing said:

My posts are simply my opinion based on a civilian (and military) experience base that I assure you is more wide ranging than you or anyone else understands. (Sounds arrogant, and I don't mean it that way). .

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Yes, it does. lol. Just don't underestimate that others here have more wide ranging experience than you are aware of. It's a two way street. Psneeld's experience in that regard is very extensive. Meanwhile others have experience working for companies similar to TOTE and others have experience with the investigative process and with liability issues of employers and employees. That's what makes the board what it is, is people with varied experience. So, when one claims they're the only ones with enough to know or be right, even if that's not their intent, it doesn't make sense. There's a lot of community knowledge here.

Sometimes it's even simple things that just happen. For instance, I'm fully knowledgeable regarding the forecasts and path of Joaquin. Why? Simply because I was coming down the East Coast at the time and following it closely as was another Captain on here taking a similar route south. Now as it turns out neither of us got any of Joaquin, just a lot of the other storm that hit SC and NC. We do follow most hurricanes to some degree though since we live in Fort Lauderdale and have boats there.

I have my blinders on, yet there's been several examples given when it comes to shore side pressures..... yea ok.

SaltyDawg86 said:

I have my blinders on, yet there's been several examples given when it comes to shore side pressures..... yea ok.

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No one has said that doesn't occur. In fact, I think the vast majority of us believe it does. What we don't know is what role it played in the El Faro sinking.

A major roll...

I would just like to say that my opinions are based on years of absolutely no relevant experience. In the TF realm, I think this makes me eminently qualified on any subject.

dhays said:

I would just like to say that my opinions are based on years of absolutely no relevant experience. In the TF realm, I think this makes me eminently qualified on any subject.

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Wifey B: Can you prove beyond a doubt you have no relevant experience? :lol:

I'm having an Irish dinner in an Irish Pub. First time ever for that so that should qualify me.

BandB said:

Wifey B: Can you prove beyond a doubt you have no relevant experience? :lol:

I'm having an Irish dinner in an Irish Pub. First time ever for that so that should qualify me.

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The appropriate documentation of lack of experience can be provided on request.

Irish Pub food is surprisingly good provided that it is accompanied by Guiness.

dhays said:

The appropriate documentation of lack of experience can be provided on request.

Irish Pub food is surprisingly good provided that it is accompanied by Guiness.

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Wifey B: Not drinking Guiness but much of the food has a Guiness demi-glaze. Shepherds' Pie, Fish and Chips, Irish Stew, Corned Beef and Cabbage, Irish Bangers and Guiness Pot Roast. They also have chicken and steak with the Guiness glaze on some sort of Potato Pancake called a Boxty. We have 8 people so most of those dishes were eaten at our table. No corned beef and cabbage. We didn't want stinky stuff at the table.

Ah, sounds good! There is an "Irish Pub" near us and my fave is the shepherds pie.

ranger42c said:

How do you know the captain was given wrong information?

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nodestination said:

Do you really believe that the captain deliberately took that ship into path of that storm?. No job is worth a life and he knew that. Accusing that captain of risking life of his crew - under pressure from that company - is sick.

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I have no idea, and I made no accusation. I don't know what the Captain knew, and I don't know who decided what. I know the eventual track of the ship, but I don't know what the the decision-makers' knew, or their specific intent.

Do you?

-Chris

BandB; said:

Wifey B: Shepherds' Pie, Fish and Chips, Irish Stew, Corned Beef and Cabbage, Irish Bangers and Guiness Pot Roast.

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Corned beef and cabbage isn't even Irish.
Just another American bastardization, like the hot dog.

Hawgwash said:

Corned beef and cabbage isn't even Irish.
Just another American bastardization, like the hot dog.

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Wifey B: Are you saying the hot dog isn't American? It must be. You eat it on July 4. Of course it's not German, they eat sauerkraut. I didn't care if corned beef and cabbage was Irish or Cuban, just that it's stinky. How does one eat something that smells soooooooooooo bad. Italian isn't Italian unless you're in Italy. Chicken ain't good unless it's finger lickin' fried. My uncle used to love me, but she died. Dang me, dang me.

This was NW PA Irish....:lol:

And I don't think Kentucky Fried Chicken is Kentucky, Fried, or Chicken.

The Black Box has been recovered.

Recorder from Cargo Ship El Faro Recovered

Plus some information regarding testimony to date.

USCG Questions El Faros Stability and Cargo Security. Maritime news.

Maybe now we will get some final answers to this. I'm sure the family is hoping for something that brings closure to the ordeal.

Capt. Jon said:

Maybe now we will get some final answers to this. I'm sure the family is hoping for something that brings closure to the ordeal.

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Closure is something unfortunately people dream of but never really see. In this situation there will always be some unanswered questions. However, even having all the answers doesn't bring the lives back. I've seen many people waiting for an event that they thought would bring closure and finding disappointment that it just didn't give them what they were hoping.

So, I'm sure the family is hoping. I'm sure they're also hoping for information to strengthen their suits if they haven't settled.

It's a bit like the word "Justice". The only justice would bring back 33 lives and that can't happen.

Will El Faro's Replacement Sail Into Hurricane Matthew?

A second ship operated by Tote, the Perla del Caribe, left Jacksonville late Tuesday afternoon for Puerto Rico

Will El Faro's Replacement Sail Into Hurricane Matthew? - NBC News

The NTSB has released the VDR transcripts, NTSB Releases El Faro VDR Bridge Audio Transcript; Opens Investigation Docket – gCaptain

Reading through the transcripts is interesting yet sad since you know what happens in the end. The crew seems to take it all in stride but you can read the tension build as the ship floods, looses power, start listing and eventually goes under. It appear the the crew was able to get off the ship in survival suits and maybe in life rafts and lifeboats.

The Captain was a brave man. There was one other person on the bridge who was having trouble getting out and the Captain stayed behind to try to get that man out. The audio recording ends with them struggling to get off the bridge.

There NTSB reports are here, Accident ID DCA16MM001 Mode Marine occurred on October 01, 2015 in 36 NM Northeast Crooked Island Bahamas, AO United States Last Modified on December 13, 2016 03:12 Public Released on January 03, 2016 18:01 Total 291 document items. The big question is what weather information did they have, what did it say, and when did they have it. That is supposed to be in the previous link but my quick scan of the titles did not get far.

Later,
Dan

Flooding, then a list, then lube oil suction lost caused steam plant to trip. No propulsion, no way to keep ship in a good orientation to the seas. Flooding worsened, list worsened, bow went down.

One heck of a read.

Ski in NC said:

Flooding, then a list, then lube oil suction lost caused steam plant to trip. No propulsion, no way to keep ship in a good orientation to the seas. Flooding worsened, list worsened, bow went down.

One heck of a read.

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291 Documents, tough read. I just read the recorder transcript. Heart wrenching to read what people were saying as they were about to die. A quote that hit me to show how they underestimated things was the Captain telling them that it was just like a normal day in Alaska. Then near the end the captain asking where were the life preservers up here. The one person who went down and then was caught there, went to retrieve his wallet and medications.

The amount of data collected and assembled is huge. I'm amazed though that they recovered what they did from the recorder.

Don't leave out something breaking the fire main, ski.

You wonder if the Captain sounded so calm for so long because he didn't fully appreciate the trouble they were in or in order to try to keep all the others calm, or a little of both.

I can't imagine how reading the transcript will be for family. I'd think for many it's something they want to know, but actually reading it will be horrifying. I'll certainly admit as just an observer shedding a few tears in reading the last pages.

Here's an overview of the documents released. What they are and aren't, from their press release.

Press Briefing for addition of factual reports to El Faro Docket​

The Webcast is still available at National Transportation Safety Board

Another tough read is reading their interviews of friends of some of the crew, friends who they talked to, emailed and texted regularly and with whom they shared a lot of information.

Is on CBS news tonight

BandB said:

You wonder if the Captain sounded so calm for so long because he didn't fully appreciate the trouble they were in or in order to try to keep all the others calm, or a little of both. ...

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He sounded calm because that is what a good leader does in the face of grave danger. Panic and sounding scared in the leader is quickly picked up by the crew which makes things worse. The mention of Alaska was to to calm the crew. The captain ordered the crew to muster, made sure they were in their survival suits, ordered them get PFDs, made sure he had a proper head count and then ordered abandon ship. He certainly knew they were dead no matter what he did but he did his job until the end. Including staying behind with a crewman who was in a state of panic The Captain apparently stayed and died with that man.

Early in the transcript there is mention of a metallic sound and one of the crewman saying "Ruh Roh". The transcript mentions the crewman making a Scooby Doo impression. The crew were also joking that the cars in the hold were now submarines....

The crew had to know they were in deep trouble at the point, if not earlier, but it does not sound like any on the bridge crew was in a state of panic until the very end when the shipping containers where in the water. And that panic was only from one man. It sounds like they did their duty and followed procedures, which gave them the best chance of survival, until the very end.

What was not clear to me was that fire main. Was that the cause of their flooding and/or just yet another oh scat that they had to deal with.

Later,
Dan

Survival through hurricanes is far from a sure thing, but some have done it.

I haven't read the transcripts yet. But is there any discussion about pressure to stay on schedule despite weather?

I ask because in my recent training classes and discussions with professional captains, it seemed to be pretty consistently understood that if you as the captain didn't do as directed by the office, you could count on a replacement captain and a pink slip at your next port.

So the captain is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. If they execute their duty to place safety first, they are likely to lose their job. And if they ignore safety and proceed as directed, an investigation like this will blame them for ignoring all the indications that it was a dangerous voyage that should have been altered or aborted.

If the entities (governing and shipping management) get serious about preventing this "damned if you do, damned if you dont" situations captains are placed in.....they could follow some of the things that the FAA did promoting safety to keep corporate pilots from being in the same position.

One of the films we used for training in the USCG was for corporate leaders on helicopter safety....it had a lead in by Clint Eastwood standing in front oif his helo. I was suprised at how many helo hours and different helos he told me he had time in...which heloped wit the impact of his lead in. The whole push helped reduce corporate accidents when awareness was raised at the executive level.

Granted, personally flying in something is different than directing a cargo ship...but it still is an awareness game of risk management at all levels.

psneeld said:

If the entities (governing and shipping management) get serious about preventing this "damned if you do, damned if you dont" situations captains are placed in.....they could follow some of the things that the FAA did promoting safety to keep corporate pilots from being in the same position.

One of the films we used for training in the USCG was for corporate leaders on helicopter safety....it had a lead in by Clint Eastwood standing in front oif his helo. I was suprised at how many helo hours and different helos he told me he had time in...which heloped wit the impact of his lead in. The whole push helped reduce corporate accidents when awareness was raised at the executive level.

Granted, personally flying in something is different than directing a cargo ship...but it still is an awareness game of risk management at all levels.

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I think they are typing to do the same. This particular class was Leadership and Management, and included lots of case studies of these sorts of accidents. The training said all the right things, but the side discussion kept coming back to this "home office" vs captain tension. It was a little alarming.