NTSB renews El Faro VDR search

BandB said:

Maybe that could be a change, to require a full VDR, not a simplified one.

It will be interesting when the NTSB completes their review, which will probably be this fall.

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The referenced NTSB document says the El Faro had the simplified version as retrofitted to older ships.

Never know what could have been said on the bridge for 12 hours.

There COULD be something important....we will only know with the recorder as there are no eye witnesses.

One piece of a puzzle sometimes allows either an accurate hypothesis...or actually figure out what happened.

psneeld said:

Never know what could have been said on the bridge for 12 hours.

There COULD be something important....we will only know with the recorder as there are no eye witnesses.

One piece of a puzzle sometimes allows either an accurate hypothesis...or actually figure out what happened.

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Some of the best information comes when you don't know what you're looking for.

Was the head of accident investigations for USCG aviation for two years.....the biggest advance we made while I was there was pushing for voice recorders over just data recorders...sometimes one word made a difference...especially how expressed.

psneeld said:

Was the head of accident investigations for USCG aviation for two years.....the biggest advance we made while I was there was pushing for voice recorders over just data recorders...sometimes one word made a difference...especially how expressed.

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The Captain's change in voice over the course of the phone calls sure showed a lot of the deterioration of their situation. Who knows who was heard yelling what on a recorder.

I would think that is exactly why it is important to the investigation....while many scenarios can theoretically be debated.....and true many may not change shipping in general...it might.

Hopefully someone has done the cost analysis of going a fter the recorder better that we can with little direct info.

Amazingly enough...sometimes the government actually is a good steward of tax dolkars.

Cost /benefits are abandoned when these cases enter the realm of politics and hype. This effort was stopped and relaunched. Some politico is applying pressure. That's how high profile incidents work. I worked side by side with NTSB at many levels for decades....from field accident investigations to headquarters level management. They are decidedly political and don't give a rip about cost/benefits when some politician gets on their case. On the aviation side, their technical staff are often inexperienced generalists and must rely on FAA and company engineers during investigations. They're front guys/women....the "suit" in front of the camera. They have a place, but they have a penchant for making off the wall, politically motivated recommendations that are NOT anchored in safety.

Well thankfully in my position I wasn't political and didnt sway...probably helped an early end to my career.

But I would still go after the recorder based on no eyewitness accounts, unless I already knew something not being released yet or the recovery was all commercial and not NAVY or government equipment/personnel for the majority of it.

The next step and how they intend to go about it.
NTSB News Release: 6-6-16 – El Faro Incident Site

What a waste time and money. The captain decision to go into that storm was base on weather information provided to him. There are 2 weather "models" -US and EU. While the EU shows - at that time - the storm on his way, the US "model" provided him with false information. Looking to blame someone - blame the weather providers.

Just curious, how many people here sail commercially? I mean an actual sailor in the US Merchant Marine?

A waist of time and money?! ARE YOU KIDDING!?! 33 people died out there! Yes, there should be a full investigation. Investigate the USCG, ABS and TOTE. It's easy to sit in your lazy boy and say "Oh, I would have said/done...." because the hardest decision you have to make all day is "do I want large fries or regular size?"

When your job is threatened and the models show nothing definitive, it's hard to say no, I'm not sailing. Maybe now they will force companies to put enclosed lifeboats onboard, maybe some convictions of shore side people will make companies second guess sending vessels out in harms way. Maybe this will force the USCG and ABS to perform real inspections and actually detain ships that are not seaworthy. Had his been a tanker, people would be singing a different tune about how there's no benefit for the general public.

Most people have no idea the pressures of working on a ship, and until you do, you have no right to say whether this is a waist of time and money or not!

I do have the right to speak my mind. There would be no need for more lifeboats or any other equipment if the ship will not go to that storm. It does not matter if is a commercial ship or a small sailboat. Storm is a storm, and they have bad reputation for a reason. No safety equipment can save you. The captain was experienced man, and it was his decision, based on information provided to him, to continue. The damage is done - get over it. Just do not trust the "weather man" with your life and your crew.

Wow..speak your mind but I am not sure you are close on the facts of the entire story.....well at least with your oversimplification of "it was the hurricane stupid".

Thanks for the viewpoint....but I will stick with the "get the data recorder crowd", let the NTSB do its job, and wait for the pundits to bring up all the after the fact tidbits before I will even begin to understand what really happened and only then point a finger if one is deserved.

Maybe, if the engine would not quit, then maybe the ship would make it.
Maybe, if the boat was brand new and stronger, then maybe it would make it.
Maybe, if that was a tanker and not container ship, then maybe it would make it.
That is all maybe, because the wind and water force was able to to rip that ship apart.
I was in transportation business, as a truck driver, for 40 years and I know the pressure company put on workers to deliver a load on time. Sometime, I had to bent the DOT rules to get it on time and accident free. It is not the equipment, but the man that is using it. 10 years ago, truck begin to have VORAD - advance warning collision system. In dense fog will give to you warning that something is on the road at 150 feet in advance. Driver had the option to turn it on or off. Still, some truck were getting into accidents in a fog. My point is - they all looking to blame some one into wrong places. Want to blame some one - blame the guy who give that captain wrong information's.

About the wrong information - few years ago, I went to small town in Arkansas to pick up a load. Company provided to me directions to that shipper. At one intersection, I was told to make left turn. It was wrong directions and I end up in residential street - no truck allowed. I had to drive 5 block, before I found place to turn around. Someone called police and I got $150 ticket. If I would be loaded (80,000 lbs) the damage to those streets will run into hundreds of thousand of dollars. The truck was in very good condition and I was rested. If I would cause a damage to those streets, some government authorities would be involve in the investigation. After few months of investigations, they will find that the truck and driver were in compliance with DOT regulation and the reason was - wrong directions provided to driver from company. I would tell them, just as I told that policeman, that I got wrong directions they are wasting a time and money lookinf for someone to blame.

nodestination said:

I would tell them, just as I told that policeman, that I got wrong directions they are wasting a time and money lookinf for someone to blame.

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I don't think that you understand the primary purpose of an NTSB investigation. It is not to "find someone to blame". They are there to improve the safety of the transportation system. The reason they investigate accidents within the transportation arena is to determine the chain of events that led to the accident. Sure, when all is said and done, weather will likely be a huge contributing factor but there are likely other factors as well. As SaltyDog mentioned, there are a lot of folks that depend on that information to help avoid future losses.

Oh you can speak your mind, but you're speaking out of your rear and it's obvious you don't have a clue. I don't care you were a trucker, you have no idea what it's like to be a captain. There's no "it happened, get over it" I want to know what the VDR says.

dhays said:

I don't think that you understand the primary purpose of an NTSB investigation. It is not to "find someone to blame". They are there to improve the safety of the transportation system. The reason they investigate accidents within the transportation arena is to determine the chain of events that led to the accident. Sure, when all is said and done, weather will likely be a huge contributing factor but there are likely other factors as well. As SaltyDog mentioned, there are a lot of folks that depend on that information to help avoid future losses.

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What are they expecting to find out?.
They may say that the ship was in no condition to go into that storm.
They may say that the equipment was not sufficient to go into that storm.
They may say, that the captain was pressure to go into that storm, but, at the end, "wrong turn" based on wrong information will the the primary factor. That where they should start and end. Put the past behind and let those poor souls rest in peace. Does any one think that a new ship with proper safety equipment will stand a chance with that weather force. Good luck with that one.

psneeld said:

Thanks for the viewpoint....but I will stick with the "get the data recorder crowd", let the NTSB do its job, and wait for the pundits to bring up all the after the fact tidbits before I will even begin to understand what really happened and only then point a finger if one is deserved.

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+1

nodestination said:

Maybe, if the engine would not quit, then maybe the ship would make it.
Maybe, if the boat was brand new and stronger, then maybe it would make it.
Maybe, if that was a tanker and not container ship, then maybe it would make it.
That is all maybe, because the wind and water force was able to to rip that ship apart.
I was in transportation business, as a truck driver, for 40 years and I know the pressure company put on workers to deliver a load on time. Sometime, I had to bent the DOT rules to get it on time and accident free. It is not the equipment, but the man that is using it. 10 years ago, truck begin to have VORAD - advance warning collision system. In dense fog will give to you warning that something is on the road at 150 feet in advance. Driver had the option to turn it on or off. Still, some truck were getting into accidents in a fog. My point is - they all looking to blame some one into wrong places. Want to blame some one - blame the guy who give that captain wrong information's.

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How do we know someone gave the captain wrong info?

Isn't that the point of getting a recorder that MIGHT tell us who knew what, when?

Guessing is a fun game....but I never had the stomach to do it over someone's grave or publicly on a forum that could get back to their relatives....not until something concrete pops up.

Sure, they got run over by a hurricane...sounds bad for a few people involved...but I would love to know why......and not speculation by a lot of people with either no clue of what happened or even how it could have happened...and not speculation.by people who do have a clue but obviously some ax to grind.

nodestination said:

What are they expecting to find out?.
They may say that the ship was in no condition to go into that storm.
They may say that the equipment was not sufficient to go into that storm.
They may say, that the captain was pressure to go into that storm, but, at the end, "wrong turn" based on wrong information will the the primary factor. That where they should start and end. Put the past behind and let those poor souls rest in peace. Does any one think that a new ship with proper safety equipment will stand a chance with that weather force. Good luck with that one.

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I understand what you are saying, but NTSB investigations look beyond just faulty equipment, maintenance failures, or bad decisions. They do a very good job at looking at the entire system to see where the problems lie. Sometimes that is just problems in communication or decision chains. I get that not everyone agrees with the expense involved, but I think it is worth it.

nodestination said:

What are they expecting to find out?.
They may say that the ship was in no condition to go into that storm.
They may say that the equipment was not sufficient to go into that storm.
They may say, that the captain was pressure to go into that storm, but, at the end, "wrong turn" based on wrong information will the the primary factor. That where they should start and end. Put the past behind and let those poor souls rest in peace. Does any one think that a new ship with proper safety equipment will stand a chance with that weather force. Good luck with that one.

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Why are you so afraid of spending some money and doing a proper investigation? You act like the money is coming straight out of your personal retirement account or something.

Think about the families of the folks who died. Don't you think they might want answers? Have a little compassion for crying out loud.

Do me a favor, look at what regulations came from the Titanic, Morro Castle, Torrey Canyon, Marine Electric, Herald of Free Enterprise, and other maritime incidents. Don't tell me nothing can come from this. I hear the BS about if it saves 1 life when it comes to other things, so what about the men and women who are gone for months at a time so you can get your 65 inch flat screen from China?

cardude01 said:

Why are you so afraid of spending some money and doing a proper investigation? You act like the money is coming straight out of your personal retirement account or something.

Think about the families of the folks who died. Don't you think they might want answers? Have a little compassion for crying out loud.

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Nothing wrong with an investigation if there are expected safety payoffs that would justify the very large public expenditure. In this case the big hitter causal factors are plain as day. Cost versus benefits need to make sense. Many of us don't believe they do. NTSB doesn't give a rat's behind as it doesn't come out of their budget. And having worked with them at the top level, I know they are politically driven in a case like this.

I watched the family representatives very carefully on the 60 minute rehash last weekend. They know what happened. The Captain stated he was going to run along the edge of the predicted path of the storm. The hurricane didn't follow the path. The engine failed. The ship went down in a raging storm. One guy said the storm killed his son, the propulsion engineer, and he's satisfied with that conclusion. One wanted covered life boats. OK, if you want real safety I'll up it a couple notches...I demand twin propulsion units for all vessels including pleasure craft (not really)...this wouldn't have happened with a back up power plant. And by golly, I want a full investigation of the two pleasure boat sinking incidents on Lake Erie in May (not really). Where's the safety concern around those incidents?


Safety has a price...just like this misguided political/press motivated investigation. I do not understand what folks think could be on those tapes that would require safety rulemaking. Use your imagination and tell me. I fully understand that there were many procedural issues leading up to the accident....but learning exactly what happened after the storm whacked the ship won't yield anything...an old, virtually one of a kind power plant, old ship. What, you want to hear the crew fighting for their lives? Want to watch them drown in the movie portrayal? You think the families want to hear that?

psneeld said:

Sure, they got run over by a hurricane...sounds bad for a few people involved...but I would love to know why......

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The NTSB does know why. The Captain stated he would take a route to get the ship around the projected path of the storm, and he took that path. The storm took a path different from the prediction (Edmund Fitzgerald scenario). The engine failed. The storm killed them.

Let's see he cost benefit analysis...


Lets just see the additional costs above normal operations for all those involved.


Till then ....we are all shooting in the dark behind our keyboards.

semi-planing said:

The NTSB does know why. The Captain stated he would take a route to get the ship around the projected path of the storm, and he took that path. The storm took a path different from the prediction (Edmund Fitzgerald scenario). The engine failed. The storm killed them.

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So YOU say...

There are many causal factors in an accident...lets wait and see which ones are determined by people involved in the investigation think are the most important...I am willing to wait and have some tax dollars spent to find out...not sure where most people think otherwise...

psneeld said:

Let's see he cost benefit analysis...


Lets just see the additional costs above normal operations for all those involved.

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You will never see those numbers. Buried in what many of you would call fraud waste and abuse under other circumstances.

Look, I'm a huge safety proponent. Early career in Navy and Coast Guard flying SAR, later career with FAA in aircraft certification, which encompasses accident investigation...a lifetime in the business. I've seen it from top to bottom, and I know how it works...and doesn't work. Somebody has to call time out in some cases. Unfortunately, when an incident reaches "Sixty Minutes" there's not a politician or watchdog anywhere that's going to step in and say this is stupid. So be it. But my 40 years in the safety field says this is pointless. We know what we need to know to make the right safety calls. The rest benefits the script writers, and maybe the families from that aspect....and of course the arm chair safety pundits on sites like this one. Far more people killed in recreational boating accidents...where's the outrage...where's the demand for more stringent safety regulations and oversight. Laughable. Want to save lives? Regulate the trucking industry that kills hundreds maybe thousands every year.

psneeld said:

So YOU say...

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No, so say dozens of news releases.

I don't give a damn how much it costs, I want to know how much pressure TOTE put on the captain to sail. Had he not sailed, he would have been fired, without a doubt. Mariners are on an island, all alone, and have nobody to back them up. I hope this changes that, and something the captain said on the bridge during that 12 hours brings more to the light. Just about every professional mariner knows what happened and now we want it to come to light!