Flag Etiquette/Rules

We used to undo the benefits of a playing squash session with a Chinese meal afterwards. Made it a rule you used chopsticks, you learnt quickly and got good at using them or you missed out.
The raw wooden ones might be traditional but I almost always see plastic versions that feel a lot better to eat with.

Certainly respect people's rights to use chopsticks. Feel no more obligated to use them in a restaurant than switching to a sailboat in Annapolis, Maryland (self-proclaimed sailboat capital of the world). In that same restaurant I'm not giving up my chair to eat while sitting on the floor either.

Ted

This is the weirdest thread drift I can remember.

I thought I'd gone to some weird 2nd amendment chopsticks thread.
Blunt versus sharp ends debate.
The right to carry chopsticks in public etc etc.
I must admit I struggle with the little buggers.
Even my cat can use chopsticks better than me.

By convention the gaff, or lacking a gaff, the position at the stern of the boat is the position of highest honor and respect. A flag of lower order such as a club pennant an owners private signal or a novelty flag or other such flag may be flown from a bow staff. To fly the American flag from he bow staff is to disrespect the flag. It places the flag in a position of lower honor and respect.

I think that when travelling in countries not our own it is insensitive if not downright rude to not show respect for the host country. This means flying a national flag of the visitor's country and flying a courtesy flag of the host country. We tend to forget that we are guests and are only in the country because the host trusts that we will behave with decorum.

I must be very old school but I wish to advertise to the host that I have respect for their customs and their laws by flying a courtesy flag. I am also proud of my country and fly my country's flag at the stern.

Last weekend there were two boats in our anchorage with no flags whatsoever - the only way to tell where they were from was the registration letters. Both were foreign and telegraphed to me their total lack of respect. I'm pretty sure that my interpretation is wrong based on appearances only but I put them on the same level as people who litter or throw their cigarette butts out their car windows - badly brought up, ignorant or arrogant.

Xsbank said:

I think that when travelling in countries not our own it is insensitive if not downright rude to not show respect for the host country. This means flying a national flag of the visitor's country and flying a courtesy flag of the host country. We tend to forget that we are guests and are only in the country because the host trusts that we will behave with decorum.

I must be very old school but I wish to advertise to the host that I have respect for their customs and their laws by flying a courtesy flag. I am also proud of my country and fly my country's flag at the stern.

Last weekend there were two boats in our anchorage with no flags whatsoever - the only way to tell where they were from was the registration letters. Both were foreign and telegraphed to me their total lack of respect. I'm pretty sure that my interpretation is wrong based on appearances only but I put them on the same level as people who litter or throw their cigarette butts out their car windows - badly brought up, ignorant or arrogant.

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....not much is expected of Americans ....especially to show any kind ofrespect at any level....yet it is the flag and those who would die for it who make that irreverence a possibility.

I think only a few things are REALLY important and one of those is respecting what you believe in.

While I know my country is far from perfect, it's ideals are pretty close and worth respecting at a higher level than just about anything else...

You are correct in that if I feel that another country is worth visiting, I should go out of my way to show that same respect.

Wifey B: Thanks to the two of you for making my point.

tadhana said:

By convention... To fly the American flag from he bow staff is to disrespect the flag. It places the flag in a position of lower honor and respect.

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What if bow staff is all one has and it's the only flag? Flying it proudly on the bow is disrespectful? Do you think the person doing so intended to disrespect it? Seems not to me since they were flying it.

What then if I'm a visitor to the US, am I disrespecting then by flying it on the bow as a courtesy?

What if I'm a US Citizen but my boat is flagged in the Cayman Islands? (No, ours are US flagged).

Xsbank said:

I think that when travelling in countries not our own it is insensitive if not downright rude to not show respect for the host country.

Last weekend there were two boats in our anchorage with no flags whatsoever - the only way to tell where they were from was the registration letters. Both were foreign and telegraphed to me their total lack of respect. I'm pretty sure that my interpretation is wrong based on appearances only but I put them on the same level as people who litter or throw their cigarette butts out their car windows - badly brought up, ignorant or arrogant.

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Totally agree with your comment on flying courtesy flags as in some places it's even law. And I do like the word "courtesy."

However, I can't agree with being so judgmental on what is ultimately a superficial thing. Might well have been there first time and not known. Maybe never flown a flag and not equipped to do so. Maybe searched before leaving and couldn't find one so hoping to buy one in Canada. Or maybe ignorant and arrogant. I'm going to assume they didn't know and meant no disrespect if I see them. Between the US and Canada, US and Mexico and US and Bahamas we see a lot of those inexperienced in foreign travel by water. All the involved countries probably should include the flag info, quarantine and courtesy, on their customs and entry pages and whether required or recommended. Maybe someone stole their flag even. I'm just not going to jump to judgement.

I completely agree that the judgement thing is my issue as I am admittedly a hold-out in the acceptance of most things "politically correct."

If nobody adheres to customs and protocol, if the lack of manners and courtesy have become immaterial or have no consequences and the result is "...not going to jump to judgement..." Then, with respect, why even bother? Reject manners and civility as a consequence of modern times?

Delay a trip because you can't find your flag? Probably not.

(It was only a couple of years ago that there were very severe consequences to letting a flag touch the ground, or making a bikini out of one. Once upon a time flags held more reverence.)

I know some places with open carry laws where interactions are elaborately polite because there are consequences. Does the lack of immediate consequences (not actually being fined or ejected) mean that your actions are excusable?

I think boaters should be held to the highest standard. We have to think ahead, be prepared, act prudently, take care of our passengers, not pollute etc etc all before (or part of) having fun. I think that part of boating is tradition and sober contemplation. Our actions or lack thereof can have dire consequences that place many others who try to rescue or help us in peril too. Our conduct should include manners and their consideration as it is the reflection of a thoughtful, responsible boater.

Rant Switch...............OFF

Xsbank said:

Rant Switch...............OFF

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Wifey B: Nothing wrong with your rant. I think we all should aspire to those standards, just not going to be quick to judge others harshly. I judge more on the basis of how I see people treating others. I look for kindness and decency and excuse formality. Just a difference but the world needs people who feel like you and people who feel like me.

Best to fly them correctly.

Better to not fly than fly disrespectfully.

Thus it's OK to mention to people that they are disrespecting something important.

Most flags I don't really care sbout...one I really do care about. I also know others really care about their national flag, so I would do my best to fly it the way they would want me to , as I would them.

Really not a hard thing to do.....and it's not superficial to everyone.

psneeld said:

Best to fly them correctly.

Better to not fly than fly disrespectfully.

Thus it's OK to mention to people that they are disrespecting something important.

Most flags I don't really care sbout...one I really do care about. I also know others really care about their national flag, so I would do my best to fly it the way they would want me to , as I would them.

Really not a hard thing to do.....and it's not superficial to everyone.

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Wifey B: Simple for us. Simple for you. Some just don't know. We have US Flags, Quarantine flags, and flags for 30 other countries or so. We fly the US flag on the stern, the quarantine or foreign flag as appropriate. No other flags.

We do not comply with the "book" which says 1" per foot when it comes to size. We choose sizes we feel are appropriate for the boat.

We also always carry a backup for each flag.

We do not fly any club or boat or state or other flag or burgee.

So stupid question time again.
Must a flag be flown?
And if yes, and you did take it down at night, and forgot to put it back up in the morning is it a biggie?

Fying the Jersey "Red Ensign" from the stern (70 x 100cm)

Flying the "Q" or courtesy flag from the Starboard first spreader (33 x 47cm)

No other flags.

Hurrying Nowhere said:

So stupid question time again.
Must a flag be flown?
And if yes, and you did take it down at night, and forgot to put it back up in the morning is it a biggie?

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I'm guessing this varies from country to country. Do not believe there is any requirement to fly the American flag in the USA from recreational vessels. Do believe the quarantine flag is required by law for foreign flags until clearing customs.

Ted

Hurrying Nowhere said:

So stupid question time again.
Must a flag be flown?
And if yes, and you did take it down at night, and forgot to put it back up in the morning is it a biggie?

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Must is a funny word...in some countries...they are more particular than others...not flying one when at sea is one thing, upon entering a countries territorial waters....can be interpreted several ways and remember who the guy with the gun and the interpretation might be.

It's about respect...if you have a tendency to forget taking it down...light it...a cheap solar garden light will work. If you leave it up on a yacht....for a night or so...probably no one would say anything. Leave it flying 24X7 and let it get worn and tattered....there are people who find that offensive...and in some countries if their courtesy flag doesn't look as good as your ensign...it has been said they will fine you.

" Not flying one at sea" puts you in the legal category of a " flag less vessel " and most likely will attract a visit from the authorites.
I love flying the Flag, like most veterans it meaning is clear to us and we honor it and where honored to serve our country and the flag, and the nation for which it stands.

HiDHo said:

" Not flying one at sea" puts you in the legal category of a " flag less vessel " and most likely will attract a visit from the authorites.
I love flying the Flag, like most veterans it meaning is clear to us and we honor it and where honored to serve our country and the flag, and the nation for which it stands.

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Not positive...but as long as you are somehow registered with a country, just flying or not flying a flag isn't intent to be stateless.

Yes not flying will bring more questions...and flying one different than from the state country on your stern will certainly get state departments on the phone pronto....but have approached many a vessel without a flag on the high seas and usually within a half hour or so (probably much quicker now) it was pretty easy to determine her legal status.

The ones that took several days usually wound up decared stateless because no country would claim them.

Thanks everyone.
I have to flag shop before I head to Mexico this winter oops. ..

psneeld said:

...in some countries...they are more particular than others......and in some countries if their courtesy flag doesn't look as good as your ensign...it has been said they will fine you.

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Some countries require that their flag be larger than your own country flag.

psneeld said:

Etiquette can also be for people in circles where hard earned respect follows those lines of customs, courtesies and etiquette....not necessarily for "stuck up" people.

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makobuilders said:

Some countries require that their flag be larger than your own country flag.

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Who?

I must confess that I never have paid any attention to any flags of the many boats I see.
Well except some that are funny.
So this is interesting how its a part of the super important items to so many.
I have anchored in places in 4 countries for many many many hundreds of days. Not a single person has ever commented on my complete lack of any flags. The Mexican authorities have stopped by many times, they ask how long i plan to stay, and see passports for all onboard is about all.
Usually a 1 to 2 minute chat, they have always been extremely polite, and leave.
I used to read of horror stories in Mexico and forced to offer bribes etc.
I have probably spent 800 to 900 days in Mexico and not once felt in danger or asked for a bribe or hassled.
They have never asked me why no Canadian flag, or Mexican flag or anything either.
As i putter up and down the west coast of the USA no ones ever asked me either, or when up in Alaska.
Rented a boat in cuba and puttered around there for 13 days on it.
I don't remember it having a flag if it did it must have been small.
Nobody said a peep to me about it.
I guess I have just got off lucky so far...or they don't care as much if the boats small enough.
Around Vancouver Island I am going to start looking at boats closer and see what if any flags they are flying.
Not that I would know what country most of them are from anyways.

BandB said:

Who?

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Indonesia for sure. I heard stories about that but didn't believe them until I met a sailor who was "encouraged" to buy a larger flag by officials when he was clearing formalities.

Perhaps not a bad idea when in remote areas. Locals might more likely think your vessel a local boat instead of a rich, visiting "yachtsman" from the USA.

makobuilders said:

Indonesia for sure. I heard stories about that but didn't believe them until I met a sailor who was "encouraged" to buy a larger flag by officials when he was clearing formalities.

Perhaps not a bad idea when in remote areas. Locals might more likely think your vessel a local boat instead of a rich, visiting "yachtsman" from the USA.

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Bet he was encouraged to buy a very expensive larger flag right there. I can hear it now. You need a larger flag. I can get you one for $300. Wouldn't want you to not be in compliance.

BandB said:

Bet he was encouraged to buy a very expensive larger flag right there. I can hear it now. You need a larger flag. I can get you one for $300. Wouldn't want you to not be in compliance.

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Bingo...we have a winner.

According to the port authority there if you email them, no flag is required by law.
But if rich i guess buy lots of flags and hang them all over.
I don't seem to find laws requiring any flags in any country.
If someone has those laws for any country or countries please post the link so I can prepurchase a flag for required places.
Thanks.

Hurrying Nowhere said:

Bingo...we have a winner.

According to the port authority there if you email them, no flag is required by law.
But if rich i guess buy lots of flags and hang them all over.
I don't seem to find laws requiring any flags in any country.
If someone has those laws for any country or countries please post the link so I can prepurchase a flag for required places.
Thanks.

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Law does not always make right or might. When you're away from home and your comfort zone, if some scary person with some level of authority says "do it", then you do it. I don't protest too loudly to one who can cause me serious problems.

Flag etiquette

http://www.noonsite.com/Members/webmaster/R2002-06-10-4

Although not all countries insist on it, in theory the Q flag should be flown as soon as the yacht has entered territorial waters to signal the intention of requesting pratique. This should be done when entering the 12 mile limit. In this way, one cannot be accused of trying to slip in unnoticed and in fact in some countries yachts have got into trouble for not hoisting the Q flag until they were in port. Also to avoid any misunderstandings, it is advisable to try to contact the authorities on VHF radio, especially in those countries which do not readily welcome yachts.

The courtesy flag should also be flown once the boat enters a nation's territorial waters. The flag should be flown from the starboard spreader in a position above any other flag. The courtesy flag should be in a good state and of reasonable size as some officials take offence at yachts that fly a torn or tiny flag. In some dependencies or autonomous regions, such as the Canaries , Azores , French Polynesia , or Corsica, it is appreciated if the regional flag is flown together, but below, that of the metropolitan power. Burgees, house flags and courtesy flags as well as ensigns should be lowered at sunset or 2100, whichever is earlier, and hoisted at 0800 in summer and 0900 in winter. It is particularly important to observe this in Scandinavian countries, where people are extremely flag conscious. The courtesy flags of the countries listed in this book are illustrated on the end papers.

The ship should be dressed overall on national days in countries visited. Ships should only be dressed when at anchor or in harbour. Although not essential, and many people are not even aware of it, there is a correct order in which to fly the code signals if the yacht is dressed from bow to stern. This order has been designed to give an interesting variety of both colour and shapes. The correct order, starting from the bow, is:

E Q p3 G p8 Z p4 W p6 P p1 1 CODE T Y B X 1st H 3rd D F 2nd U A O M R p2 J p0 N p9 K p7 V p5 L C S. If the vessel is two masted, the line between the two masts starts with Y and ends with O.

From the USPS flags and etiquette......


The customs observed in various foreign waters differ from one another. Try to learn the correct procedure for the country you are entering. For example, is some countries it is customary to fly the courtesy flag only after the*quarantine flag*(the yellow 'Q' flag) and the vessel has been granted*pratique*by the appropriate authorities.