Flemings in the flesh

Hawgwash said:

I got my first look into the 55 ER today and was surprised how tight it was in there with Cummins 480s. One would have to be very disciplined to do thorough checks in there and I bet even a mechanic familiar with that boat would take longer to get stuff done.

Pity.

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Did you get a chance to look into the ER of an F65? Curious as to whether its as big an issue for it as it is for most people on the F55.

I haven't been on a fleming 65 or larger for a while, but I remember that the ER entrance was from the outside. Does that sound right? In that size range lots of boats are designed assuming a crew that never mixes with the owners/passengers. We run our boat as a couple, and for me having convenient interior access to the ER is a must-have. Anyway, I remember that the exterior access to the ER was a real turn off for me.

Insequent said:

Did you get a chance to look into the ER of an F65? Curious as to whether its as big an issue for it as it is for most people on the F55.

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twistedtree said:

I haven't been on a fleming 65 or larger for a while, but I remember that the ER entrance was from the outside. Does that sound right? In that size range lots of boats are designed assuming a crew that never mixes with the owners/passengers. We run our boat as a couple, and for me having convenient interior access to the ER is a must-have. Anyway, I remember that the exterior access to the ER was a real turn off for me.

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I did not get aboard a 65. I struck up a bit of a dockside acquaintance with the owner of the 55. I happened by as he was getting ready to go home and he welcomed me to the ER but I only observed from the lazarette. According to him the 55 and 65 had the same ER access; the water tight door from the lazarette and a crawl through door from guest or crew quarters immediately forward of the ER, plus salon hatches. I understand the 65 ER is only slightly larger that the 55.

As George said above, it is well laid out but you still have to be doubled over, crouched or on your knees to get around.

Ok so there was one of the new 55's at the Sanctuary Cove boat show, and I had a long chat to one of their guys today because it was not overly busy. I took a look in the ER, went up to front of it and worked my way back. I doubt there is any more room than the earlier iterations of the 55 but it is quite well laid out and frankly I don't really see an issue with the space and access. Sure, not a lot better than I have at present in my Mk 1, but manageable. Layout with service access is the key.

Having said that, the guy was then explaining how the 58 ER has over 6' headroom at the front and not far short of it at the back. Over a foot more freeboard also. Interesting that the extra 3' LOA, freeboard and perhaps a little more beam (can't remember) all conspire to add 10 t to displacement, so the 58 is really a much bigger boat. Seems to be selling well though - 20 sold to date but none yet in Australia. Seems that 50% of buyers go for the new GA, with steepish winding stair down to cabins. I think I'd stick with the traditional GA, with master in bow and just a few easy steps to get to each different part of the boat. There is no wave slap forward as there are no hard chines, so I don't see the need for a midship master on a Fleming, particularly with the impact it has on access to the saloon from the sleeping areas.

The biggest nit I could pick on the 55 was the size of the 3rd cabin. Much smaller than I remembered. But of course the 58 fixes that issue as well.

I wanted to take a look at the Horizon PC52, but it was sold yesterday, the first day of a 4 day show and the 'new owner' forbade further access. Crazy. The sale may not even proceed to completion if he has finance issues for example. There were some other large boats sold on day 1 as well, and they were still showing folks through them although I did not go aboard them. It seems the boating sector is having a good year down here!

The 58 is closer in size to the 62 than it is to the 55. It's a great improvement. It was in response to many complaints and the greatest single complaint they were getting was that everyone else was offering mid ship full beam master cabins. It's not just the location of the master but the size with it moved midship. Also, the other plus is that leaves what was the master as a great VIP.

The greater beam of the 58 also gives substantial improvement to the engine room.

I just looked at the the CP59 on the Nordhavn site. I was anticipating a hybrid giving the best of their existing line crossed with a Fleming. A few things surprised me:

Cored hull (below water line) -- aren't their other boats solid fiberglass below the water line? I believe Flemings are.

No Portuguese bridge. The F55's have them, and they seem to be used, enjoyed and appreciated (not a Fleming, but I really like mine).

Really small dashboard at the helm -- I would have expected room for 3 or 4 displays and lots of control heads.

Fuel capacity -- 1,100 gallons. I would have expected at least 2,000. A boat like that should be able to transit Baja (or the US Pacific coast) without stopping for fuel along the way.

Engines -- they went with the 715hp QSM11's. I think a better choice would have been the 660hp versions, which put out more hp all the way up to their rated rpm (2300, as I recall), while the 715hp's get that extra horse power only but adding 200 rpm.

Lastly, and it is purely personal taste, but I don't like the interior architecture. Perhaps my adverse reaction is exacerbated by the finishes of that particular boat, however.

Still, I am anxious to see one in person.

A potential advantage for the CP 59 to the F58 is it's much lower weight and possible equal creature comforts. Not to mention lower fuel burn and greater range.

Two new clean sheet designs is good news for the industry and pensive buyers.

MYTraveler said:

I just looked at the the CP59 on the Nordhavn site. I was anticipating a hybrid giving the best of their existing line crossed with a Fleming. A few things surprised me:

Cored hull (below water line) -- aren't their other boats solid fiberglass below the water line? I believe Flemings are.

No Portuguese bridge. The F55's have them, and they seem to be used, enjoyed and appreciated (not a Fleming, but I really like mine).

Really small dashboard at the helm -- I would have expected room for 3 or 4 displays and lots of control heads.

Fuel capacity -- 1,100 gallons. I would have expected at least 2,000. A boat like that should be able to transit Baja (or the US Pacific coast) without stopping for fuel along the way.

Engines -- they went with the 715hp QSM11's. I think a better choice would have been the 660hp versions, which put out more hp all the way up to their rated rpm (2300, as I recall), while the 715hp's get that extra horse power only but adding 200 rpm.

Lastly, and it is purely personal taste, but I don't like the interior architecture. Perhaps my adverse reaction is exacerbated by the finishes of that particular boat, however.

Still, I am anxious to see one in person.

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Basically I think of it as them trying to be something they aren't, trying to address a specific need. How well they executed that will long be debatable. I'm sure there are some Nordhavn owners who have asked for such. I do not see it pulling other business in.

I spent some time looking at the 58 on Fleming's site. Doesn't look so much a clean sheet design but a Marlowe clone. It's obvious that Marlowe has cut into their franchise and they heard the reasons why from customers loud and clear.

The arrangement with forward master is still completely unacceptable for us. No steps and no crawl-ins for us. The midship arrangement looks very nice. That would work!

Galley a little cramped, but we were spoiled on the Hatt, where it was also nice to have the dinette in the galley as well for a variety of reasons. Being galley down, the Hatt was full beam (18'2" on ours vs 17'6" on the Fleming, less the side decks).

Pilot house and lower helm look nice, suits me at first glance, however, I would want to see how much visibility it has to the rear, usually my biggest issue with separate pilot houses.

Aft deck could be great if they extended the boat deck all the way aft and made it encloseable with something like EZ2CY.

Flying bridge looks great but that upper helm looks awfully cramped. Would have to see in person. But generally speaking, has the excellent underway ergonomics of other Flemings. As for the ER, would have to experience in person, not sure how you get in there..

Is there any outdoor seating forward of the pilot house? One of our very favorite spots to be, especially underway on a nice day, but also at anchor, was the forward bench seat or forward sunpad deck; that would definitely have to be addressed.

caltexflanc said:

I spent some time looking at the 58 on Fleming's site. Doesn't look so much a clean sheet design but a Marlowe clone. It's obvious that Marlowe has cut into their franchise and they heard the reasons why from customers loud and clear.

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I agree with you on the forward seating. It is nice to have. I don't agree on the Marlow clone nor do I agree that Marlow has in any way cut into their franchise. Marlow did cut into Grand Banks, but of course that's where he came from. Right now I don't see them cutting into much of anyone's franchise. Fleming and Marlow customers though are very different. Fleming's always been low volume and continues much the same.

MYTraveler said:

Lastly, and it is purely personal taste, but I don't like the interior architecture. Perhaps my adverse reaction is exacerbated by the finishes of that particular boat, however.

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I'm not in the market and never will be for this class of vessel, but I didn't find it attractive inside or out. Inside it reminded me of a Swift Trawler - and since I get a (free) copy of P&MY I'm certainly aware that this kind of euro-styling must be where the market is. But I found the prominent rounded window edge jarring. And I'm irritated to see they adopted the practice from residential real estate of elongating the edges of the photos to make spaces appear larger (note the elliptical control knob on the dishwasher). And fast or slow, the lack of handholds alarms me.

refugio said:

I'm not in the market and never will be for this class of vessel, but I didn't find it attractive inside or out. Inside it reminded me of a Swift Trawler - and since I get a (free) copy of P&MY I'm certainly aware that this kind of euro-styling must be where the market is. But I found the prominent rounded window edge jarring. And I'm irritated to see they adopted the practice from residential real estate of elongating the edges of the photos to make spaces appear larger (note the elliptical control knob on the dishwasher). And fast or slow, the lack of handholds alarms me.

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What I find interesting is you're more a traditionalist. MYTraveler not so much so. And we definitely are not. There viewers from different angles. Yet, we all have similar "ehhh" reactions. That's been my belief from the start that it wouldn't appeal to the Nordy and wouldn't really to the non-Nordy. It's not the classic of the Nordhavn, but put it in the middle of the market of semi-displacement of faster cruisers and it's a large market with so many more attractive choices. It tries to be the best of both worlds so misses the target in both worlds, in my opinion. They keep trying this CP routine and keep building one or two of each model then they fade away.

My suggestion to them would be if they want to be in the coastal cruiser business with a different type boat, then get it designed and created by some people who have never been a part of Nordhavn or worked with them. Come up with a completely different line with it's own name and then just put underneath if you want, "By Nordhavn." Emphasize that it's built by Nordhavn, maintain Nordhavn quality, but really it should have few if any other similarities.

BandB said:

I agree with you on the forward seating. It is nice to have. I don't agree on the Marlow clone nor do I agree that Marlow has in any way cut into their franchise. Marlow did cut into Grand Banks, but of course that's where he came from. Right now I don't see them cutting into much of anyone's franchise. Fleming and Marlow customers though are very different. Fleming's always been low volume and continues much the same.

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So in what way is the 58 not a Marlow clone? What is innovative about it compared to the equivalent length Marlow? And I will tell you having talked with many owners of each marque, they are exactly the same customer demographic and with very similar boating experience.

I would submit to you that in the grand scheme of things, the Fleming 55 has been one of the, if not the, most popular boats in its class for a long time now.

caltexflanc said:

So in what way is the 58 not a Marlow clone? What is innovative about it compared to the equivalent length Marlow? And I will tell you having talked with many owners of each marque, they are exactly the same customer demographic and with very similar boating experience.

I would submit to you that in the grand scheme of things, the Fleming 55 has been one of the, if not the, most popular boats in its class for a long time now.

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I agree the Fleming 55 has been one of the most popular boats. Don't see any argument with that. I just know that Fleming had some requests that led to the 58, things some people didn't like about the 55 or liked but wanted changed.

Ok, I'm very anti-Marlow and I think comparing a boat of their quality and a Fleming is insulting to Fleming.

There is nothing truly innovative about the 58 or about Marlow or most boats out there. To say that the layout of the boat is similar is fair. But so many things beyond layout that are important.

I've also talked to Fleming and Marlow owners. I find Fleming buyers are looking for the best and have done a lot of thinking and research, while Marlow buyers are more price conscious and more prone to a slick presentation and sales job.

There is no comparison between the ride of a similarly sized Fleming and Marlow. There is no comparison between the construction quality. There is no comparison between the companies or warranty service or delivery quality.

It's like comparing a small Infiniti to a large Hyundai because they're similarly sized and both have four doors. (And I'm a fan of both Infiniti and Hyundai but consider them very different).

I love the layout and general design of Marlow. However, calling something a clone implies to me that it's a copy or even perhaps a cheaper version, but not that it's got a similar layout on a much better quality boat. Perhaps it has a different meaning to you or you think of Marlow as a better boat than I do. I have no problem thinking of a Marlow as a Grand Banks clone.

BB

Some may find the boat in your avatar unappealing. But since I've never been on the vessel but just seen pictures my scatter shot opinions and views are not worth much.

Flemings and Nordhavns have strong followings and stellar owner support. Their vessels have been so well vetted and tested that getting caught up in analyzing photos seems trivial. A trip or two aboard generally firms things up for me.

BandB said:

What I find interesting is you're more a traditionalist. MYTraveler not so much so. And we definitely are not. There viewers from different angles. Yet, we all have similar "ehhh" reactions. That's been my belief from the start that it wouldn't appeal to the Nordy and wouldn't really to the non-Nordy.

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Yes, I am indeed more of a traditionalist. I don't particularly mind modern designs, but as my eye moves over them I don't expect to see jarring transitions. The exterior of the 59CP is an odd (to my eye) combination of themes. I can appreciate purpose-built. And I can appreciate boats built more for aesthetics (thinking euro-design). This looks like a forced combination that nobody asked for.

Today's business success increasingly rewards evidence over whim. If NH doesn't have several of these pre-ordered, I'm thinking they skimped on that critical step. Unfortunately, they don't seem to possess Steve Jobs' talent for innovation outside their original premise.

Considering Nordhavn started out life building sailboats I'd say they have a fantastic track record of innovating their product line.

sunchaser said:

BB

Some may find the boat in your avatar unappealing.

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My boat isn't much to look at either, I knew that when I ordered it, but I like my boat and I even like looking at it. That shouldn't disqualify me (or anyone else with a boat that others might not appreciate, visually or otherwise) from expressing an opinion about the form or function of another vessel. In fact, I enjoy hearing conflicting opinions of others, particularly when their basis is well expressed.

BandB said:

They (Nordhavn) keep trying this CP routine and keep building one or two of each model then they fade away.

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What other coastal cruisers have they built? There have been other designs put out as bait but I don't think any were ever built. I suppose the N35 is a coastal cruiser, but I think they built 35-40 of them so a reasonably successful run.

BTW, I otherwise agree with your assessment. I wish PAE all the best with the CP59, but it's certainly not a move I would have made were I in PAE's shoes. It's a crowded market with many fine builders to choose from.

sunchaser said:

BB

Some may find the boat in your avatar unappealing. But since I've never been on the vessel but just seen pictures my scatter shot opinions and views are not worth much.

Flemings and Nordhavns have strong followings and stellar owner support. Their vessels have been so well vetted and tested that getting caught up in analyzing photos seems trivial. A trip or two aboard generally firms things up for me.

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I would imagine the vast majority here would find the boat in my avatar unappealing.

I think you can analyze layout before going aboard and get some idea of appeal, but then you have to be careful on aesthetics because it could just be the individual owner. Then with a boat, the real test is on the water.

twistedtree said:

What other coastal cruisers have they built? There have been other designs put out as bait but I don't think any were ever built. .

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Perhaps they were just bait and never actually built. Calling for help from Oliver as he's the one who told me about them at one time. It's been a while and he's the Nordhavn expert so maybe he'll respond.

CPseudonym said:

Considering Nordhavn started out life building sailboats I'd say they have a fantastic track record of innovating their product line.

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You're confusing Nordhavn (Norwegian for North Harbor for the fishing boats they were styled after) with the Al Mason PAE cruising sailboats. I don't know how many Nordhavn 56 motorsailers were sold, but I imagine only a handful. Did they do better with the 75 EYF (expedition yachtfisher)? Maybe, it's still listed in their product line. And I can see a definite resemblance to the boat in MYTraveler's avatar - there must be something about long-range sport fishing yachts that informs that style. But then there's the 35 Coastal Pilot. A very experienced friend in my YC almost ordered one, but I don't think that would be considered a successful departure either. Sure, they've gone upmarket and larger as their owners wanted to upgrade, but beyond that I'm not seeing any success getting outside their traffic lane.

BandB said:

I would imagine the vast majority here would find the boat in my avatar unappealing.

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I know my dog wouldn't like it! She wants a walk-around protected deck to "patrol the perimeter" and keep us safe.



When we were locking through last weekend there was a 35ish sportboat with a sloping deck and no bow rails behind us. They had a doberman on the forward deck. Without a life preserver. I just cringed.

refugio said:

I know my dog wouldn't like it! She wants a walk-around protected deck to "patrol the perimeter" and keep us safe.

When we were locking through last weekend there was a 35ish sportboat with a sloping deck and no bow rails behind us. They had a doberman on the forward deck. Without a life preserver. I just cringed.

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It has a walk around deck. Now she could fall through the rails. She'd like the steps to the bridge too.

I cringe sometimes when I see dogs in sloping areas with no jacket. Even more when it's children.

No confusion on my part, you postulated N had demonstrated no ability to advance the product line.

"Unfortunately, they don't seem to possess Steve Jobs' talent for innovation outside their original premise."

Shouldn't discount how much involvement PAE had in the development of both lines is my opinion.

One look at a Fleming tells me zero innovation outside their original premise has taken place since it was borrowed from his previous employer. No offense, it's an awesome boat and perhaps my favorite new build but still nothing at all innovative.

CPseudonym said:

N

One look at a Fleming tells me zero innovation outside their original premise has taken place since it was borrowed from his previous employer. No offense, it's an awesome boat and perhaps my favorite new build but still nothing at all innovative.

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They definitely haven't reinvented themselves. Any change is very subtle. I like them just as they are. If it's working, stick to it. On the other hand, that can lead to a company's demise eventually. Fleming however isn't dependent on large volume, just builds a few boats and continues.

Fleming 55 started in 1986, and had a bunch of earlier very successful pilothouse designs to look at, and include feedback from owners of those boats. Apart from the Grand Alaskan this included De Fever's around 50' and OA Mk1's like mine, by Ed Monk Jnr and likely some others. Raised pilothouse boats designs are all 'variations on a common theme' really. Details of course separate them.

The Mk 1's production run was from 1978 to about 1984 and totaled 98 boats. Very successful I think. It was followed by the Mk 2 which was a quite different design and less popular I believe.

In the 30 years the F55 has been built they are still only up to hull number 244 (or close to that) as of feedback I received 2 days ago. Now a yard that was then only building a dozen or so boats a year (of all sizes) can pay close attention to quality, which they do, and they are still selling. People will pay for quality if it is a good design. The F58 ER, and the alternative midship master stateroom layout were the two big 'feedback issues' from F55 owners or potential owners. Having sold 20 F58's in 2 or 3 years suggests to me they are on a winner with it. It would be near the top of my shortlist if buying new in that size.

Nice

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