Butt kicked by stuffing box

I am obviously missing something. I want to restuff my rudder stuffing boxes but am unable to take them apart. Attached is the photo of one stuffing box. I assumed and was told that I need only take the nuts of the two studs shown, raise the flange and take out old stuffing, put in new stuffing. I am unable to get the flange up.

I have used hydraulic "jaws off life" but the rudder wants to move with the fitting.

Can someone tell me what I am missing.

Thanks
Gordon
Who up to now has only had dripless stuffing boxes.

Disclaimer I have never done rudder boxes, but I have done engine stuffing boxes that look just like yours, but horizontal. You may have to drop the rudder, which means a haul out. Folks here will steer you in the right direction.

Mine looks just like that but it just lifts up. Yours looks like it might have a portion of a thread showing under the round collar piece. Maybe it unscrews from the base after the bolts comes off?

You should be able to pull the studs out with a pair of vice grips. That would let you spin the flange if it's threaded. Seems like it shouldnt have to do that though.

I have the same style for the engine. The flange should come right out

Greetings,
Mr. GJ. Yup, as above, should just lift up. So that suggests a seizure of some sort. I would flood the groove/space between the upper part of the flange and the rudder shaft with a good penetrant and work the rudder back and forth.
You might have to soak and exercise 3x-4x daily for a week...Again, it should just lift up.

I doubt very, very much that the pieces are threaded together as suggested in post #3.

Put a pry bar under the flange and get somebody to move the rudder back and forth while you pry upwards.
Why are you repacking them? It looks like they don't leak, are just over-serviced with grease. Clean up the area and degrease and you're good to go.

What RTF said!

These are somewhat cleaned up from when I started the project. I had some threads left so may be able to go ahead and tighten, but because they were fairly rusty, thought I had a leak. The boat is 13 years old and I figured being new to the boat, I would start from a known point.

I have used a hydraulic jaws which open, and theoretically, should have popped the fitting up. No mas.

I have soaked the fitting with WD40, and then resoaked it with Wd40. It is obviously not frozen because the rudders turn normally.

Thanks all, but so far, I haven't see a solution in the responses.

Gordon,
Who is thinking of retightening the whole mess and worry about is next haul out.

PS. I am on the hard.

PPS, I just finished a six-year service on my TRAC stabilizers. If anyone wants to know what is involved let me know.

Greetings,
Mr. GJ. WD is not a particularity good penetrant (loosener upper). You would be better to try PB Blaster, Kroil or even a 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone. SOMETHING is binding or jammed in the fitting. Possibly a groove worn with some hardened packing wedged in the groove???? Again, as mentioned, that fitting should simply lift up.

I'm NOT suggesting you do this but what I would try is apply the hydraulic lifts on either side of the upper flange, heat up the upper fitting with a torch and have someone turn the wheel back and forth (post #6) all at the same time.

Sounds like the ram is seized in the port. Have you tried budging it downward with the nuts? Some times the first move is what you need to get it going either direction. You might also use a pipe wrench or other tool to wrench it back and forth slightly to loosen it.

One other thing. I have found when working on my boilers and other pipe fittings with water soluble scale and rust is to use water to start the loosening process. Water soluble scale breaks down more readily with water. Seems like once you apply an oil it becomes impervious to water and almost has to be machined off versus rinsing away.

Grease or oil are the ticket while reassembling though!

Gordon J said:

These are somewhat cleaned up from when I started the project. I had some threads left so may be able to go ahead and tighten, but because they were fairly rusty, thought I had a leak. The boat is 13 years old and I figured being new to the boat, I would start from a known point.

I have used a hydraulic jaws which open, and theoretically, should have popped the fitting up. No mas.

I have soaked the fitting with WD40, and then resoaked it with Wd40. It is obviously not frozen because the rudders turn normally.

Thanks all, but so far, I haven't see a solution in the responses.

Gordon,
Who is thinking of retightening the whole mess and worry about is next haul out.

PS. I am on the hard.

PPS, I just finished a six-year service on my TRAC stabilizers. If anyone wants to know what is involved let me know.

Click to expand...

semi-planing,

Tried tapping, and turning wheel. I am putting penetrant (or WD 40 in this case) everywhere that might bind. The area in the photo looks greasy because of massive amounts of WD 40.

When I jack up the flange, the upper piece, I see the rudder lifting with it.

Gordon

Bglad,

I did try retightening, thinking it might help. Now I can't get it back up as far as I originally had it.

Gordon

Greetings,
Mr. GJ. If, you're on the hard, jam something between the rudder and the hull outside the boat to keep it from lifting. Then jack up. You won't be able to turn the rudder but maybe something will pop loose.

Tried turning the rudder back and forth while jacking up on the flange? Sounds like the rudder may have a groove worn in it that is holding it in place.

Gordon J said:

semi-planing,

Tried tapping, and turning wheel. I am putting penetrant (or WD 40 in this case) everywhere that might bind. The area in the photo looks greasy because of massive amounts of WD 40.

When I jack up the flange, the upper piece, I see the rudder lifting with it.

Gordon

Click to expand...

Gordon J said:

I am obviously missing something. I want to restuff my rudder stuffing boxes but am unable to take them apart. Attached is the photo of one stuffing box. I assumed and was told that I need only take the nuts of the two studs shown, raise the flange and take out old stuffing, put in new stuffing. I am unable to get the flange up.

I have used hydraulic "jaws off life" but the rudder wants to move with the fitting.

Can someone tell me what I am missing.

Thanks
Gordon
Who up to now has only had dripless stuffing boxes.

Click to expand...

Looks like same arrangement as our 440 OA....stuffing box sits below a thick athwart ship "board" which mounts the big upper rudder bearings? In any case the "top hat/piston" portion of the stuffing box is stuck in the lower "bore/sleeve" as previously mentioned. The rudder is turning freely, so moving it around won't help. If there's even a slight amount of free play between the studs and the holes in the "top hat", you can probably get it to break loose a bit by gently tapping radially on the ears. Otherwise remove the studs to get a little more movement. The ones on our boat eventually came out with a lot of fiddling and tapping (studs in situ).

Dollars to donuts your stuffing boxes are probably weeping and the stuffing is hard as a rock...it was on our boat. I installed four new wraps of standard PTF flax and they needed routine adjustment. Last summer I added two more wraps of Gore and they seemed to seal up. I'm not sure if there's a cutless bearing below the stuffing box, but a slight vibration went away after renewing the stuffing.

Looks to me like a standard stuffing box, age old problem. Its not the shaft it's the outside of the movable adjustable flange and the tube, galvanic corrosion and water have created a build of corrosion and salts. You have to dissolve them you can use a little diesel, it takes time but unfreeses almost everything. Or muriatic acid, just a little acid with a pippet or similar on the outside of the adjustable gland, Wait 5 mins Tap lightly with a small hammer ( create vibration) to break the corrosion. It should begin to move. Then flush extensively with water, . Also wear all protective clothing, faceshields gloves etc

I would after reading the new info fashion some wedges that you could hammer between the bolts and rudder post to pry it apart, when you hammer them in till they don't go any more get a 4# maul and beat the flange, it needs shock, pressure and shock!

See if you can back out the studs so you can hit the packing retaining nut and break it free by pivoting it. If you can't back the studs out try rapping the gland retainer on its extreme ends to get it to pivot enough to break it free.

I would also wash and clean up the gland with some form of acid to cut through the corrosion.

Just have some baking soda mixed with water on hand to neutralize the acid.

Capt.Bill11 said:

See if you can back out the studs so you can hit the packing retaining nut and break it free by pivoting it. If you can't back the studs out try rapping the gland retainer on its extreme ends to get it to pivot enough to break it free.

I would also wash and clean up the gland with some form of acid to cut through the corrosion.

Just have some baking soda mixed with water on hand to neutralize the acid.

Click to expand...

This is the approach I would use......

I would worry about messing up the studs.

Just double nut them and apply a little pressure...if it doesnt turn easily, then stop.

But stainless in bronze should be no big deal...but then again I have never seen one of these stuffing boxes not come apart easily.

It could be cocked and jammed a bit...that's why I agree with Capt Bill that pulling the studs an tapping all around should free it up in a jiff.

I know nothing about this but what I have read here.

However, GJ tells us that the rudder lifts when he uses the 'jaws of life' to lift the upper flange. Means that the upper flange might be threaded on is unlikely. WD 40, as noted above, is not much of a penetrating fluid, but over adequate time, is better than nothing. I'd clean up the WD 40 and move on to penetrating fluid and more time. I dislike using oils or penetrating fluids since they may compromise sealants and bonds, let alone future bonding of 'glass, paints and sealants; I try to not use an excess. Penetrating fluids are sold for the purpose of seeping into every nook and cranny; they'll seep into fiberglass and stink to high heaven for a great long time.

Prying against fiberglass doesn't seem like a good idea without some idea about how hard before damage occurs. Can you block the lifted rudder and upper flange up against the lower flange with something incompressible, like steel? Support the rudder loosely from below. Pad the top of the rudder shaft with brass or aluminum. Swat the rudder shaft down with adequate authority. Never use force, as my dad said, just a larger hammer.

My absolute worst, similar experience involved removing the propeller shaft from the flange at the engine. Much time, cursing, much inventing of levers and prys, I flung my wife across and down onto a gravel boatyard pavement, bent the propeller. I discovered after I cut the shaft to remove it that a PO had put the shaft into the flange with Loctite. Then I could not get the Cutless bearing out which was the object of the exercise. Removed the stern tube fitting, took it, the shaft parts and prop to a shop with adequate tools.

Good luck, and may the force be with you!

Be careful with applying wedges, etc as the seal between the lower half of the stuffing box and the hull could be squeezed/pulled/damaged. It's probably under that big flange with the corner bolts. Maybe it's just a bead of 5200...


Odd that the shaft (which rotates freely in the bore) would lift when you applied the hydraulic spreader jaws to the "top hat". In any case it suggests that the bottom jaw of the spreader device was likely not on the upper lip of the lower half of the stuffing box, but rather on the retainer/flange...and the entire assembly including the rudder shaft was pulled up/squeezed against it. Either there's a shaft retaining device at the bottom of the stuffing box, or the stuffing is gripping the shaft in the longitudinal axis.

If you had the space, you could use two small pullers, one on each stud.

If no space for the pullers, I would try Capt. Bill suggestion, possibly with two hammers simultaneously, one on each side rotating the flange in the same direction.

If you are out of the water why not pull the rudder shaft? I'll bet the rudder shaft is bent and is keeping the upper part of the stuffing box 'cocked'. Removing the rudder shaft will open it up in any case. You'll be able to get "PB Blaster" directly inside in any case.

Then you can take a close look at your rudder shaft. Might be bent or a ring of crud has built up on it.

Greetings,
Mr. al. Probably the best idea but without being able to disassemble the packing gland, pretty well impossible.

WD40 does not dissolve corrosion.
It is almost useless but not quite useless.
People think it does dissolve rusts and they waste time using it.

My guess is the ram part that presses onto the packing is stuck in the main housing due to a massive amount of corrosion. The only thing to get i apart is heat from a torch or acid. Your flooding with wd40, will not let the acid work very well, so I would clean it really good with dish soap, dry it with a heat gun, then use and acidic rust buster PB blaster is easy to buy. Also you can try phosphoric acid or CLR citric acid. If you use Muriatic pool acid, just be real careful you got a good hose nearby.

The ram, top part, maybe you can work back and forth just a little with a real big pipe wrench. Likely a little bit of clearance even with the studs in there. And you can try whacking it with a hammer to loosen the corrosion.

IF you could remove the studs, then they will be out of the way. They likely screw into the base.

You might be able to borrow or rent a VERY large pipe wrench to crack the flange by twisting it by whatever amount the studs clearance allows.

Xlantic said:

You might be able to borrow or rent a VERY large pipe wrench to crack the flange by twisting it by whatever amount the studs clearance allows.

Click to expand...

I thought that is why God made hammers?

Thanks all for the suggestions. The piece came loose this am with lots of pounding while using the hydraulic ram. I am guessing that the overnight soak in WD-40 helped some.

Nicely, the stuffing box on the other rudder came off with very little effort.

Gordon