Mikelson Roughwater?

While relaxing and surfing for my "next boat" (I'm not the only boat owner that does that, right? ) I stumbled across this: A 2004 Mikelson 41. First I have heard of one of these being built. There are some references online to Mikelson building some boats off the RW line after they went under. But no 41's... and nothing this recent.

I have loved the Roughtwater 41 since I first saw her in the late 70's. Imagine... a 2004... "modern RW41". SoCal Flybridge instead of a pilothouse. Looks good, though there is something nostalgic about the pilothouse version. I would have extended the flybridge back a bit to give more seating, lounging room.

Just thought I'd share.


2004 Mikelson Trawler Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Damn, I don't think I'd like to own the "ex-Wicked Wench"


Keith

Wow that is a 41 roughwater. same layout with just minor changes. they should have went with the pilothouse. don't like the only place to pilot the boat from is out in the elements.

Now that's a proper FB.

Russ Borman said:

Wow that is a 41 roughwater. same layout with just minor changes. they should have went with the pilothouse. don't like the only place to pilot the boat from is out in the elements.

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I fully agree, the originals have a pilot house that can be opened up sufficiently to give an open feeling and out of the sun. An upsize is both the roof and the forward deck under the pilot house gives GREAT opportunities for solar panels. I bet 1500 watts could easily be achieved.

Russ Borman said:

Wow that is a 41 roughwater. same layout with just minor changes. they should have went with the pilothouse. don't like the only place to pilot the boat from is out in the elements.

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Yeah - but she's a SoCal boat. Flybridges used, lower helms rarely. I would absolutely skip a lower helm in exchange for added usable space below. However, I get your valid comments from the PNW and other colder climes.

I think going with a hardtop instead of the canvas bimini and then having a full canvas / Eisenglass enclosure would be my ideal compromise. She's pretty sweet... but over $100K above what I'd value her at - at 12 years old. I'd buy an old one, repower, completely refurbish, and put the other 100K in the bank. But then again, if I had $265,000 sitting around...

refugio said:

Damn, I don't think I'd like to own the "ex-Wicked Wench"


Keith

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Wifey B: Bet if you ever tried a Wicked Wench you'd change your mind.

Phyrcooler said:

While relaxing and surfing for my "next boat" (I'm not the only boat owner that does that, right? )

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Nah, you're not the only one! In fact, if we ever downsize from liveaboard/workaboard to a boat just for PNW cruising I would be looking real hard at Roughwater 41s. I've always like the lines of that boat...

Mikelson builds one hell of a nice boat in Southern California. Their twist on the timeless Roughwater 41 looks like a fantastic compromise for the southern climate lifestyle to me.

Call Dick at Mikelson in San Diego. I am sure he would be happy to talk to you.

I like it, esp. For So CA. Mikelson has a solid reputation from what I hear.

Mikelson builds one hell of a nice boat in Southern California.

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They're Taiwanese made boats. Very nice though.

caltexflanc said:

They're Taiwanese made boats. Very nice though.

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True. But how much more would it cost to build in the US? At least $1M. I am more patriotic than most, always stand for the National Anthem, with my hand over my heart, always vote, pay my taxes without any grey-area deductions (even though I know a good part of the money will be wasted while my family lives on a budget), and have always owned US cars (which really doesn't mean much), but I am not a fan of Trump's idea of tariffs to level the playing field. If our team can't compete, its time for a new sport. With notable exceptions (none close to my boat, as far as I can tell), we can't compete in this market segment.

MYTraveler said:

True. But how much more would it cost to build in the US? At least $1M. .

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I disagree and I do so having done extensive research into the economics of relocating a boat builder to the US. One can build and deliver a boat in the US for little difference in cost than building in China and delivering to the US. Why do you think OA is looking for more building in the US? And it's not one size boat. It's from aluminum fishing boats to Bayliner and Sea Ray to Hatteras to Westport. Most yachts are not built in China but in Europe, in countries more expensive than the US.

Freight is the great equalizer. Freight both ways. Also, the cost of commissioning the way Nordhavn does it is far more than if it was all done as part of the build process.

Light, labor intensive products is where Asia holds the tremendous advantage.

BandB said:

I disagree and I do so having done extensive research into the economics of relocating a boat builder to the US. One can build and deliver a boat in the US for little difference in cost than building in China and delivering to the US. Why do you think OA is looking for more building in the US? And it's not one size boat. It's from aluminum fishing boats to Bayliner and Sea Ray to Hatteras to Westport. Most yachts are not built in China but in Europe, in countries more expensive than the US.

Freight is the great equalizer. Freight both ways. Also, the cost of commissioning the way Nordhavn does it is far more than if it was all done as part of the build process.

Light, labor intensive products is where Asia holds the tremendous advantage.

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I'm genuinely curious. Why are so many boat builders and farm equipment manufacturers located in China? Or is the parity with US builders due to relatively recent cost increases over there (plus freight)?

angus99 said:

I'm genuinely curious. Why are so many boat builders and farm equipment manufacturers located in China? Or is the parity with US builders due to relatively recent cost increases over there (plus freight)?

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Capital. Why are some of the largest boat builders in the world, Ferretti and Sunseeker, owned by Chinese companies. There aren't a lot of people in the US willing to invest in such activities. I don't count venture capitalists as they turn around and borrow large amounts so real capital is often minimal.

Now, the dynamics have changed over the years. I'd point to the automobile industry though as an example of the economics of the US on large items. Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai-Kia, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Subaru, all build in the US in addition to GM, Chrsyler, Ford, BMW, Mercedes, and VW.

As to farm equipment, in 2013, 31% was produced in Europe, 27% in North America, 27% in China, and the remainder elsewhere. So still a lot of non-China manufacturers competing.

As to boat builders, there are a lot in China in numbers of builders, but they aren't the volume builders of the world. Why so many "trawler" builders? One reason is that trawler type boats are low volume. Not one of the largest superyacht builders is in China. Not one of the leading builders of 100'+. And not one of the volume boats such as Sea Ray or Bayliner built there. There are over 500,000 boats sold in the US per year and a very very small percentage of those are from China.

If you want to build 5 to 7 boats a year, there are many many Chinese boat yards who will do it for you. There are people there who will set up a new yard for it. Westport is the largest US yacht builder, building 8 to 12 per year but their smallest boat is 112'.

We have to be careful when thinking trawler type boats to remember what a small segment of boat building it is.

BandB said:

Capital. Why are some of the largest boat builders in the world, Ferretti and Sunseeker, owned by Chinese companies. There aren't a lot of people in the US willing to invest in such activities. I don't count venture capitalists as they turn around and borrow large amounts so real capital is often minimal.

Now, the dynamics have changed over the years. I'd point to the automobile industry though as an example of the economics of the US on large items. Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai-Kia, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Subaru, all build in the US in addition to GM, Chrsyler, Ford, BMW, Mercedes, and VW.

As to farm equipment, in 2013, 31% was produced in Europe, 27% in North America, 27% in China, and the remainder elsewhere. So still a lot of non-China manufacturers competing.

As to boat builders, there are a lot in China in numbers of builders, but they aren't the volume builders of the world. Why so many "trawler" builders? One reason is that trawler type boats are low volume. Not one of the largest superyacht builders is in China. Not one of the leading builders of 100'+. And not one of the volume boats such as Sea Ray or Bayliner built there. There are over 500,000 boats sold in the US per year and a very very small percentage of those are from China.

If you want to build 5 to 7 boats a year, there are many many Chinese boat yards who will do it for you. There are people there who will set up a new yard for it. Westport is the largest US yacht builder, building 8 to 12 per year but their smallest boat is 112'.

We have to be careful when thinking trawler type boats to remember what a small segment of boat building it is.

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Thanks. This is a very good explanation.

BandB said:

I disagree and I do so having done extensive research into the economics of relocating a boat builder to the US. One can build and deliver a boat in the US for little difference in cost than building in China and delivering to the US. Why do you think OA is looking for more building in the US? And it's not one size boat. It's from aluminum fishing boats to Bayliner and Sea Ray to Hatteras to Westport. Most yachts are not built in China but in Europe, in countries more expensive than the US.

Freight is the great equalizer. Freight both ways. Also, the cost of commissioning the way Nordhavn does it is far more than if it was all done as part of the build process.

Light, labor intensive products is where Asia holds the tremendous advantage.

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Since you have ruled out production costs, I take it (from your subsequent comment in this thread) that you attribute the shift to capital. But there is no shortage of capital in the US. The fact is that cost of production, especially for relatively low-tech, semi-custom boats is way higher here. Labor rates are a big part of that, but also facilities costs (land), regulation (environmental, OSHA, labor (as distinguished from rates), etc.).

I don't know about your research, but my opinion was formed as a result of my serious consideration to the investment of a substantial sum in a builder.

MYTraveler said:

Since you have ruled out production costs, I take it (from your subsequent comment in this thread) that you attribute the shift to capital. But there is no shortage of capital in the US. The fact is that cost of production, especially for relatively low-tech, semi-custom boats is way higher here. Labor rates are a big part of that, but also facilities costs (land), regulation (environmental, OSHA, labor (as distinguished from rates), etc.).

I don't know about your research, but my opinion was formed as a result of my serious consideration to the investment of a substantial sum in a builder.

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I haven't totally ruled out production costs as a factor, just not the factor they are being made out to be and largely offset by other factors such as freight.

Mine was arrived at my opinion in the same way you did with heavy involvement from an existing boat builder so we were able to use actual costs in his existing facility to base a new facility on. Yes, labor is higher, but you can build a more efficient plant than those we're talking about in China and elsewhere. The facilities are readily available in areas with a lot of building history. And, there is a shortage of the right kind of capital and investors in this industry.

I attributed it partly to capital. However, the point being missed is that China is not the leading country for boat building. There is not a rise of new facilities in China today. The builders who have been building there have done so a long time. Most of them have always build in China or elsewhere in Asia. In fact, there's very little shift of where boats are being built and probably more growth in areas like Turkey. It's just a misstatement to say boats are being built in China because it's not affordable in the US. There are far more boats built in the US today than there are in China. The most efficient plants in the US would be Sea Ray's production facilities where there is little customization and Westport where they are 112-164' foot semi-custom boats and some of the facilities building commercial vessels such as Chouest.

Now there are some very efficient Chinese builders. Cheoy Lee is the first one I'd point out. I will also say you couldn't build profitably in the US if you used all the same production techniques of many of the other small builders. You'd have to build efficiently. There are two costs that are higher in the US-Labor and Compliance. Compliance for boat building is relatively a minor concern and done easily every day.

Thanks BandB for all the interesting industry insight.
I don't have spare money to invest. I do that through Ameriprise Fin. Very conservative portfolio keeping my head above water.

I would assume small boats like 14' aluminum skiffs and canoes would suffer from distribution expenses. Never seen a Chinese canoe or small skiff. Never thought about it before your coments either.

Nomad Willy said:

Thanks BandB for all the interesting industry insight.
I don't have spare money to invest. I do that through Ameriprise Fin. Very conservative portfolio keeping my head above water.

I would assume small boats like 14' aluminum skiffs and canoes would suffer from distribution expenses. Never seen a Chinese canoe or small skiff. Never thought about it before your coments either.

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Small boats just don't have the level of profits to justify a plant in China. While we have opposing views on US production, MYTraveler also has a good deal of insight.

I'm conservative too in investing and my even considering getting involved with boat manufacturing was sadness in seeing a long treasured line of boats dying. I came to my senses I guess though.

Every part of the boating world concentrates on their type boating. I never thought of anything to sleep on when I lived on the lake. Our 30' bowrider was a huge boat for there. There are other people who only think of the yacht world and anything under 150' is a toy boat to them or perhaps a tender. We have a friend who had never been on any recreational boat under 200' or so, before she went out with us. She had been on the tour boat circling NYC but that doesn't count.

This is a trawler group so naturally the thoughts run to trawler type boats, those used in the manner people here boat. As part of the boating world, it's a small part. In fact, I think it should be much larger. Too many boat builders have migrated away from the 30-60' size. Look back at the great Hatteras LRC's-Gone. Smallest now 60'. All the Grand Banks? Essentially gone as it was known. OA-smallest boat now 70'. Bayliner cruisers-gone. Many of the builders who built cruisers to boost the top of their lines, extend lines from 30' to 50' stopped. Tollycraft-gone. Not much new, not much bravery to enter the industry or innovate in it. The only innovative effort I think of off the top of my head is the Beneteau Swift Trawler. It said something was missing. In a way they were trying to be the new Bayliner. And speaking of US building, I believe we'll see some ST's built in the US.

I would love to see a builder addressing the 30'-70' semi-displacement market. I also would like to see a US trawler type builder. I guess the one effort into that was Northern Marine and we know where they went. The customer Bayliner and Mainship and Tollycraft served isn't being served today. The customer Grand Banks served isn't being served well today. Some say it's a lack of demand. I don't know. I don't think so, but I don't know. It's impossible to really know demand for something that isn't available. How do you measure dreams or those in a focus group who say they'd love a specific boat. You have no idea how that would translate. If they say they hate it, you do know enough not to proceed.

Nomad Willy said:

I would assume small boats like 14' aluminum skiffs and canoes would suffer from distribution expenses. Never seen a Chinese canoe or small skiff. Never thought about it before your coments either.

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Yes, aluminum boats like that have been declared dead many times but small aluminum boats is a thriving market. Hard to convince people to go aluminum on a runabout though. In the worst part of the economic crisis, aluminum was Brunswick's one bright spot. In fact, in terms of volume for a brand, not for a builder, Tracker is now number one. More Tracker's sold than Bayliner or Sea Ray.

Something else you've never seen in the US. A Chinese or any foreign built center console. Haven't seen a Sportfishing boat yet either. Chinese build has been concentrated on commercial, trawler type, and yachts up to 120' or so.

BandB said:

A Chinese or any foreign built center console. Haven't seen a Sportfishing boat yet either.

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Well there was bound to be at least one

Welcome to Nordhavn.com - Power Thats Oceans Apart

angus99 said:

I'm genuinely curious. Why are so many boat builders and farm equipment manufacturers located in China? Or is the parity with US builders due to relatively recent cost increases over there (plus freight)?

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Labor cost and regulatory compliance.

One place, you pay $2 per hour, no retirement plan, no lawyers suing you for not having bathrooms for 12 genders, no EPA, no FICA, no union telling you to have nap pods. Another place, $30 per hour, big pension, government breathing down your neck at every decision, cookies and milk at every break, mandatory union dues, etc etc.

Not that complicated. It's called P&L.

Drake said:

Labor cost and regulatory compliance.

One place, you pay $2 per hour, no retirement plan, no lawyers suing you for not having bathrooms for 12 genders, no EPA, no FICA, no union telling you to have nap pods. Another place, $30 per hour, big pension, government breathing down your neck at every decision, cookies and milk at every break, mandatory union dues, etc etc.

Not that complicated. It's called P&L.

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Well, as long as we're talking extremes, that would be the same China where millions still live in squalor, sweat shops abound and people in many industrial centers wear dust masks to catch the particulates floating in the air they breathe. Give me the US socioeconomic model, warts and all.

Drake said:

Labor cost and regulatory compliance.

One place, you pay $2 per hour, no retirement plan, no lawyers suing you for not having bathrooms for 12 genders, no EPA, no FICA, no union telling you to have nap pods. Another place, $30 per hour, big pension, government breathing down your neck at every decision, cookies and milk at every break, mandatory union dues, etc etc.

Not that complicated. It's called P&L.

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The cost of raw materials and getting them in has to figure in and the cost of shipping to your customer. Duty. Then the expense those who wait to commission add to the cost. It's not all about labor and compliance. Don't forget the cost of shutting down for the Chinese New Year. There are many factors.

My career was in an industry where 65% of your cost was labor. That's where you get killed. I suffered through all the transfer of jobs offshore and hate that to this day. Just as a comparison though, sewing could not and cannot compete. However, knitting and dying of fabric, there's no cost savings in China. Very capital intensive business and low labor factor.

angus99 said:

Well, as long as we're talking extremes, that would be the same China where millions still live in squalor, sweat shops abound and people in many industrial centers wear dust masks to catch the particulates floating in the air they breathe. Give me the US socioeconomic model, warts and all.

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Yeah, how do you want to live, how do you want your loved ones, neighbors to live? What do want to see when you wake up? For those that wish for the description of life you gave, immigration is a possibility.

Mule said:

Yeah, how do you want to live, how do you want your loved ones, neighbors to live? What do want to see when you wake up? For those that wish for the description of life you gave, immigration is a possibility.

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For a moment I thought you were describing some places in the US. A trip or two to China and SE Asia is required to better understand the people, living conditions and economy. As is a trip to parts of Chicago on any evening. Ignorance is bliss.

sunchaser said:

For a moment I thought you were describing some places in the US. A trip or two to China and SE Asia is required to better understand the people, living conditions and economy. As is a trip to parts of Chicago on any evening. Ignorance is bliss.

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I have spent more than my share of time in SE Asia. Seen the squalor of the slums of Hong Kong next to mind boggling riches. I support an defend the USA and will continue to do so.