Contract Signed / New Build Underway

Post Delivery Modifications

One area of building a new boat (and this goes for any boat) which we have not touched on is planning today for those potential future updates or equipment changes that be in the owners future plans. I recall a few times on our previous "stock" boats when we considered adding something or making a change only to realize it wasn't really feasible for many reasons. Those boats would likely live their lives as built.

Using this experience we have attempted to address a few of our potential / future modifications by planning ahead. A few examples include; 1) having the yard prepare the engine room for a future generator by installing the mounting pad and thru-hulls, 2) designing the welded battery bank rack large enough for five batteries while we start out with three, 3) insuring the deck area where we plan to add a small davit is structurally sound to accept the weight, 4) add access panels to "difficult to reach areas" where we believe access may be required. It's amazing how something as simple as an access panel can result in significantly lower yard costs by reducing labor hours required to fix or add something.

These are just a few examples intended to assist others who may be planning their plan next boat.

Scott leaves for the yard next week and plans to provide a lot of photos which we will post a few here. I know he his excited to see the new deck with all the enhancements. Scott will also be checking on our salon / galley drawings (the yard owes us the final drawings) along with all other changes we made. I'm really excited to see the impact of the smaller windows (15%) will have on both the interior and exterior. If I got this change right it will add the perfect mix of style and practicality. As you can see we are getting very anxious. I told Mary as long as we have the boat for the 4th of July week I will be happy, we just want it to be as close to perfect as possible.

John T.

I think it's a difficult balance. Certainly where possible a builder should think ahead to future changes. At the same time, while addressing the changes that others have made, perhaps the 98% rule, there may be some they just can't anticipate or the added cost of anticipating and building into all boats unfairly costs all those who don't add.

I think everyone wants the simplest approach that provides all the comforts and conveniences they want. Anything beyond that in a boat becomes an opportunity for simplification. Deciding to forgo air conditioning and a generator obviously simplifies things, but I think it's much more about your willingness to give up those features than anything else.

It's a lot easier to forego air conditioning in San Diego or Northern CA than in hotter and more humid climates like Houston or the east coast, especially Florida. But it might be a regretted decision when one cruises away from the moderate climes.

I've never had air conditioning on my boat, but I never leave NorCal, so it's not a problem. Even in the summertime in the fresh waters of the CA Delta where it might reach 100*F during the day, it usually drops into the 70s at night. During the day, a short swim and shade from a cockpit canvas often helps with the heat.

twistedtree said:

Deciding to forgo air conditioning and a generator obviously simplifies things, but I think it's much more about your willingness to give up those features than anything else.

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Wifey B: Getting rid of air conditioning greatly complicates the matter of keeping the boat cool and comfy.

Getting rid of a generator greatly complicates the matters of doing laundry on board of keeping cold and frozen food, of cooking, of watching television, of long hot showers....

Would your land home be simplified if you gave up air conditioning and if you gave up having electricity during the evening, night and early morning?

It's like saying we're going to simplify life by all going and living in the woods.

I'm not making light of the subject. But if every stop you make involves carrying everything to a laundry, spending hours washing and dragging, lugging it all back to the boat plus borrowing a car to go grocery shopping and lugging it back but having only what you can use quickly...that's changed things. That's given less equipment to break. But it's not simplified anything. The ultimate way of simplifying things is not to have a boat. Pretty sucky solution.

WifeyB you make a very good point. As we come to the end of our boating life, (I think...unless we can never sell it), I often wonder if my wife, who has never been as keen as I am about boating, but who was the one who insisted we went boating to get away from things like TV, etc, might in fact have enjoyed it more, and been more keen to go out, if she had given in and consented to one. Air conditioning was never an option in our boat, but seldom did we aver wish for it, and we had the rest of what we needed, but we never had a telly...
Just a thought..?

Progress Report

With the boat nearing completion focus is starting to shift towards paperwork to insure everything is in place when its needed. This week we start working with our attorney to develop the LLC (registration) and our finance person on a few items. We will also update the marina on our new estimated arrival date and begin checking with insurance carriers to obtain quotes. Mary is taking care of getting our passports renewed in case we decide to run to Ensenada, Mexico.

Doing most off these items too early can results in double effort but waiting too long can create a real nightmare so timing is important.

That's all for today.

When are you expecting the boat to be finished at this point?

BandB said:

Wifey B: Getting rid of air conditioning greatly complicates the matter of keeping the boat cool and comfy.

Getting rid of a generator greatly complicates the matters of doing laundry on board of keeping cold and frozen food, of cooking, of watching television, of long hot showers....

Would your land home be simplified if you gave up air conditioning and if you gave up having electricity during the evening, night and early morning?

It's like saying we're going to simplify life by all going and living in the woods.

I'm not making light of the subject. But if every stop you make involves carrying everything to a laundry, spending hours washing and dragging, lugging it all back to the boat plus borrowing a car to go grocery shopping and lugging it back but having only what you can use quickly...that's changed things. That's given less equipment to break. But it's not simplified anything. The ultimate way of simplifying things is not to have a boat. Pretty sucky solution.

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The point I was trying to make is that each of us has a set of features we want in a boat. If you reduce features, you in turn simplify the systems in the boat. Maybe it doesn't simplify life on the boat, as you point out, but it simplifies the systems.

What I was really trying to address was the notion that this boat build is paving some new ground or creating a new trend towards "simplification". I think everyone always has, and always will want to "simplify" within the limits of the features they want on their boat. It's far from something new.

The other boat cited was Sans Souci, a Nordhavn 68. I know the boat reasonable well and the last thing I would call it is "simplified". It's one of the most highly equipped boats out there, and the owners want a lot of features. The "simplification" that they are undergoing is really about getting the same capabilities they want in a more straight forward, up-to-date way.

We recently bought a boat for use at home where we suddenly found ourselves boatless. We "simplified" by carefully considering what we need/want, and what we don't need/want. It's just what John has done with his Helmsman, and what hopefully all boat buyers do before selecting a boat. The result is a much simpler boat than our Nordhavn. No AC, no generator, no hot water - the only real "feature" is a head, and that's something we insisted on. But there is no galley, no microwave, no sink.

Anyway, I have no idea if I'm explaining this in any meaningful way...

twistedtree said:

Anyway, I have no idea if I'm explaining this in any meaningful way...

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Yes, my wonderful wife challenged you, but you're explaining it well.

I find "simplification" or "simplifying" to be rather meaningless buzz words. They're like many corporate buzz words. They're convenient but have different meanings to everyone. There are people leaving the corporate world and moving to the Montana wildlands as simplifying their lives. Really what they're doing is removing one or more very unpleasant aspects from their lives, often jobs that are making them unhappy.

There's nothing simple about the boat being built. There are characteristics of it that could be more complicated. It seems one is talking about reducing equipment and electronics to reduce the maintenance job. Perhaps that's the goal, to minimize the maintenance requirements?

I think your point on matching the design of a boat or selection of a boat to intended use is very important. However, by the definitions of many that could complicate as much as simplify. For us it definitely includes heat and air and the ability to operate them wherever we are. We live in South Florida but we're facing 29 degree temperatures where we are tonight.

I think the key in boat building or purchasing is well defined and thought out requirements definition. That includes whatever research, experience, trial necessary to be capable of doing that.

Another key to building new is a plan to retain the vessel for a significant number of years. The initial depreciation hit requires some years of enjoyment as pay off.

Flipping a boat soon after it is built is for multi-billionaires.

schedule

twistedtree said:

When are you expecting the boat to be finished at this point?

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My estimate is the boat will complete by mid June then ship. Scott will provide a firm ECD later this week once he arrives at the yard.

N4061 said:

we have attempted to address a few of our potential / future modifications by planning ahead. A few examples include; 1) having the yard prepare the engine room for a future generator by installing the mounting pad and thru-hulls, 2) designing the welded battery bank rack large enough for five batteries while we start out with three, 3) insuring the deck area where we plan to add a small davit is structurally sound to accept the weight, 4) add access panels to "difficult to reach areas" where we believe access may be required.

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I wish I had put empty conduits to allow wired access (even if circuitous) from anywhere to anywhere. As it is, at least on my boat, getting a wire from even the engine room to the main helm is a PIA, going to the fly bridge is even more difficult, and getting to the control panel in the tower is about impossible.

MYTraveler said:

I wish I had put empty conduits to allow wired access (even if circuitous) from anywhere to anywhere. As it is, at least on my boat, getting a wire from even the engine room to the main helm is a PIA, going to the fly bridge is even more difficult, and getting to the control panel in the tower is about impossible.

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Don't feel too bad. My boat has conduit all over the place, and fishing wires is still a giant PITA.

N4061 said:

My estimate is the boat will complete by mid June then ship. Scott will provide a firm ECD later this week once he arrives at the yard.

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It will be really interesting to see how all this progresses. Looking back at my boat build, it was a full year from the time the upper house FRP structure was installed until the boat shipped. Granted, it's a bigger boat with a lot more systems. All the interior woodworking had to be built, though much of the rough-in was already done at that point, all the plumbing and fixtures, all the electrical wiring and fixtures, steering & rudder post, engine(s), drive shafts, HVAC, thrusters, windless, davit, engine control systems, etc, etc,. I think Nordhavn is one of the slower builders, but a big chunk of that is because 90% of the boats are customized - some extensively - so the stamp-em-out efficiencies that builders like Helmsman, Grand Banks, Krogen, Selene, and Fleming enjoy can't be realized. I would guess you are more like 3-4 months away from shipping, but it's really hard with zero pictures to assess progress.

Remind me again what their nominal build time is from mold prep to loading on a freighter? I seem to recall 6 months?

twistedtree said:

I think Nordhavn is one of the slower builders, but a big chunk of that is because 90% of the boats are customized - some extensively -

Remind me again what their nominal build time is from mold prep to loading on a freighter? I seem to recall 6 months?

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Nordhavn is slow, especially for size boat. They take as long as a 100' Custom build would take, as long as a 164' Semi-Custom. Then on top of the build you have their commissioning process which adds on to it.

However, their customer is happy so it works for them.

Peter B said:

Man are you so right BandB. I am at present working my way through Patrick O'Brian's sailing ship series, featuring Jack Aubrey and Steven Maturin. (others have mentioned this series in the past) When I think that back in those and earlier times, all they had was swinging the lead for soundings, and taking a sun sight at noon, if it was possible, and also using celestial bodies to navigate, with so much of it by dead reckoning and with really dodgy charts, if indeed there were any charts for the the relevant area, you realise just how simple modern aids make it all, and how lucky we are.

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Build Time

twistedtree said:

It will be really interesting to see how all this progresses. (cut out)
Remind me again what their nominal build time is from mold prep to loading on a freighter? I seem to recall 6 months?

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OK, we are trying to compare two different size builders and that's where I believe the real difference is. Build time on our first Nordhavn 40 was about 12 months. I believe the primary reason it takes PAE longer to build boats is not that they are custom (they do allow limited changes) but rather the number and size of boats they push through the factory. When you consider that 50% of the boats being built are large 68' - 86', take a lot more man hours and the factory starts to experience capacity issues (as would any factory). Add is at least one new design being built and the production boats will likely will likely experience a few delays. PAE does a nice job building quality boats with complex systems and all this takes time due to the number and mix of boats (my opinion).

The quoted average build time for the H38E is about six months. With our boat we had an all new deck mold designed and built which started in late October. Then we added a number of custom changes which under normal conditions would not have impacted the build time very much since they were not structural. But how can this yard average about 6 months for a 38' while PAE takes closer to 12 months for a 40?? I think most of this comes down to the efficiency factor of running a smaller factory with fewer models and not being focused on larger boats. Nothing scientific here just basic manufacturing principles and business model. I'm sure if the factory started building 60' or 70' footers lead time on all boats would become longer. We are six months into our contract and lost a few weeks over the Chinese New Year, overall I would say the yard is doing well considering the new deck mold.

John

N4061, how long are you planning on owning this boat?

menzies said:

N4061, how long are you planning on owning this boat?

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Oh, that's a loaded question if I ever saw one. Then will he own it as long as he plans to...lol

Airconditioning

FlyWright said:

It's a lot easier to forego air conditioning in San Diego or Northern CA than in hotter and more humid climates like Houston or the east coast, especially Florida. But it might be a regretted decision when one cruises away from the moderate climes.

I've never had air conditioning on my boat, but I never leave NorCal, so it's not a problem. Even in the summertime in the fresh waters of the CA Delta where it might reach 100*F during the day, it usually drops into the 70s at night. During the day, a short swim and shade from a cockpit canvas often helps with the heat.

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Not sure if I mislead anyone on the A/C. This boat will have reverse cycle A/C and heat for when we are dock side. Remember our style of boating is spending time at a marina not so much on the hook at night. That's just us.

John

Flipping Boats

menzies said:

Another key to building new is a plan to retain the vessel for a significant number of years. The initial depreciation hit requires some years of enjoyment as pay off.

Flipping a boat soon after it is built is for multi-billionaires.

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I totally agree that flipping boats is not the best investment strategy for most people. While our history has equaled a few less years of ownership than others, we have faired well on all boats due in part to understanding the boat, its marketplace, getting the right purchase price, timing and of course luck. At some point I plan to expand on this strategy which has allowed an average Joe (OK, John) like myself to have enjoyed the number boats we have owned over the years without going broke.

John T.

John, you didn't mislead anyone. Typical TF thread drift. Happens every time someone grasps a tangent then a few folks run with the assumptions starting a thread within a thread.

Our new Helmsman 38 PH arrived in Seattle 5/9 after loading in Shanghai on 4/15 and proceeding via Pusan, Korea and Long Beach on Cosco America. The boat build started in late October so the build time was about 7 months. During the process I received email and photo updates on a bi weekly basis. Scott and Lisa Helker, the Helmsman importers at Waterline Boats in Seattle provided frequent communication exchanges between the factory and myself as our preferences took shape. Scott also visited the factory during our build.

The delivery process in Seattle was superb. I accompanied Scott, Lisa and staff on a tow boat to meet Cosco America in the Seattle harbor. Rain Shadow (our boat name) was first off loaded on shore for inspection and acceptance. It was then craned back up to the ship, transported over to the other side and lowered in to Puget Sound where we towed it out of the harness, added fuel and fired the engine. Just like that we were underway!

Rain Shadow was shipped under shrink wrap and arrived perched high and proud on the bow of the container ship. Somewhere along the way the shrink wrap has torn, likely near Seattle since it was clean, dry and all the wrapped components were in place on the bridge. The interior was incredibly clean, the joinery, cabinets and finishes are impeccable. Every door, drawer and hatch fit like a glove and operated freely. I have bought a lot of cars, a few boats and built several homes in my time and none came to me as well prepared as Rain Shadow.

My buying experience with Scott and Lisa at Waterline, the US importer for Helmsman, was equally satisfying. They are quickly responsive, informed, professional and straightforward in manner. Selecting a boat is intensely personal so I will not tout a Helmsman for everyone but I am confident in endorsing the Waterline Boat team for establishing and sustaining trust and consistency through the buying, building and delivery process.

lashobe said:

Our new Helmsman 38 PH arrived in Seattle 5/9 after loading in Shanghai on 4/15 and proceeding via Pusan, Korea and Long Beach on Cosco America. The boat build started in late October so the build time was about 7 months. During the process I received email and photo updates on a bi weekly basis. Scott and Lisa Helker, the Helmsman importers at Waterline Boats in Seattle provided frequent communication exchanges between the factory and myself as our preferences took shape. Scott also visited the factory during our build.

.

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So, how long from arrival to delivery to you? Was the boat fully equipped at the factory or is there extensive commissioning still to be done?

Commissioning here in Lake Union will involve installation of the Garmin electronics suite, a dinghy hoist, a Bimini and a stern thruster. Scott has tightly scheduled each and we will close and take delivery two weeks after off loading in Seattle...assuming no glitches.

The boat was shipped from Shanghai with the Cummins 425 hp diesel and engine electronics, hydronic heating system, galley ice maker, refrigerator and propane stove installed, all leather interior cushions and vinyl on the bridge, bow thruster, all railings and swim step, radar and antennae mast, AGM batteries, Sea Hawk bottom paint, granite counter tops, etc. The workmanship is excellent.

Congratulations !!
Love the look of your new boat!
Enjoyed watching the videos that were posted of the off loading including going through the locks!

Progress Report - Real Time

Its been an exciting day exchanging emails with Scott who is at the yard this week and likely not sleeping a whole lot. The first email included a pleasant surprise that our boat will be the first with the all new swim platform which the yard felt was required to match the enhanced non-slip deck design. As an added bonus the tooling was designed to allow for easy installation of "Staples" which we decided today to include on the boat. I know, don't add, but this is the fun part of boating - creating something new.

The second email was related to the open space we designed above the Washer/Dryer cabinet. I asked Scott if we had enough room for a small freezer but it turned out to be a little small so agreed to add one shelf and leave it as an open cabinet which Mary will find good use.

Then there were a few other smaller tweaks discussed prior to the trip that we needed to finalize. All this and no photos of the exterior! I think Scott is teasing us a little and expect to some great pictures later this evening.

Needless to say "today was a good day"

Tomorrow Mary and I are planning to drive down to San Diego to check on our pending boat slip then to West Marine for a little shopping.

More to follow tomorrow evening.

Pictures, we want pictures. You'll killin' us with anticipation. I count only 8 progress pictures in this entire 9 page thread.

N4061 said:

My estimate is the boat will complete by mid June then ship. Scott will provide a firm ECD later this week once he arrives at the yard.

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So the boat arrived one month early, great news!