Taking the plunge?

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Werner.



A few words of advice. I'd suggest coming to a new forum and reading a lot initially, then asking a few questions. I would strongly suggest not reposting garbage you've heard from the drunks at the bar or their online equivalent. You could have just as easily asked opinions on Bayliners and on various Taiwanese boats without quoting or paraphrasing nonsense from other places on the web.



We all have our preferences, but you don't see a lot of hyperbole here of boats falling apart and unsafe at any speed. The fact is most boats are good, just some better. Most have their attributes, just some more. There are very few builders out there building bad boats. Just some not as good as others. What you're more likely to hear here are personal preferences stated as such and when asked what we think of a brand, if we say we don't like them, we'll generally say why.



I'll give you a good example. Fleming is generally recognized as one of the top quality boats on the market. Built in Taiwan, by the way. Caltex will point out how high the sides of a Hatteras are compared to a Fleming and how much bigger his Hatteras was than a similar length Fleming when docked beside it. All factual and he's a Hatteras fan. However, nothing malicious or fabricated in his comments.



As part of your potential boat search you need to explore different attributes of boats and then those brands that best fit your needs. You also need to be more careful about where you gather information and much more careful about redistributing that information without further verifying it.


Oooo! Flaming pots of boiling oil flung over the parapets! Run for your lives! Run for your lives!

Come on, BB! We're were all new to this once!


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
 
Come on, BB! We're were all new to this once!

As someone who is definitely still new I do agree. We need to cut Werner some slack.

Werner, there are certainly boats out there that could meet your needs. In your budget range, they will likely take some work. What you are looking to do is a fantastic idea. Use a trawler to get you to places to explore in your kayaks. Your home waters are about ideal for that. I just don't think you will find what you have described at anywhere near what you have to spend.

When I started looking at power boats, I made a common mistake of looking for particular features or attributes, rather than looking at the function. With the help of the TF crew, I found my way to my new boat. Form follows function. Identify as nearly as you can what you want the boat to do, and then look at the forms of those boats that will do it.
 
Werver-I will second B's comments on the Bayliners. What you read is complete crap. I know folks who worked for Orrin Edson and believe me, he would never build a boat with those kinds of problems. If you want an idea of what a lot of folks think of them-take a trip to visit us in Seattle, on a nice warm sunny weekend, go down to the Ballard Locks and watch the boats going through. On a busy weekend you will see several hundred boats go through, it always seems like about half of them are Bayliners. All those people did not buy one because it might fall apart.
 
Sorry for upsetting some. As my source of information is the internet for trying to decide on the best boat to buy, I though it would be OK to post some of the info I read and let the experts tell me the reality. None of it is MY opinions as my experience with these boats in non existent - why getting your opinions is important to me. As I mentioned earlier, I have no basis to form any opinions on boats yet. Good to hear about the Bayliners here. I had thought of going to the US to look as the selection is so much larger but our dollar takes a 20-25% beating as soon as I cross the border and then I imagine there are all sorts of other costs with importing a boat.

I guess I will have to try to figure out how this forum works and see what else is out there for info. Not used to the setup and its format and navigating around in here is a bit foreign to me so I haven't done much yet except put up this post. Many of my questions have probably already been answered. Certainly getting some response on this thread though, which is great. Haven't started to run for my life yet jdcave but some of the burns have me backing up a bit.

Perhaps I can start getting a bit of a education on what is being said....
A heavy deep keel boat with twins...that would be an rare bird indeed. It's hard to imagine a distance cruiser type wanting to double the maintenance cost, lower the efficiency, un-protect the running gear, duplicate the controls, and take up all that space...and then not need the 2nd engine to get above hull speed.


I thought some of the boats I have looked at for sale, such as a Ocean Alexander 390, Canoe Cove, Cheer Men Bros and a lovely 42 ft Garren Blakely designed by Monk would be what are slow, heavy boats suitable for my needs. The twins in my non educated opinion are for safety and maneuverability in close quarters around marinas. I really don't care about speed. Some have bow thrusters - perhaps not needed on twins as the twins cancel out issues of prop walk in tight quarters?

Would these boats not be displacement hulls? Looking at the speeds advertised I assumed they would be. Would it be better to concentrate on single engine boats? I can see that maint would be cheaper, less fuel, protecting the running gear with a keel on a single. But would the maneuverability and safety factor where the other engine could allow a limp back to harbour out-weigh those factors. Any idea on how much it costs to install a bow thruster if a old boat doesn't have one?

I should mention that I actually live on the other coast, on the Bay of Fundy in Nova Scotia so I wont actually see in person the boats I am interested in until this fall when I head out to the west coast. I am familiar with the west coast though, having lived as a child in Qualicum Beach on Vancouver Island and have family out there who I might ask to go check out a boat for me. Any ideas on whether best to go through a broker or a private sale?
 
Don't sweat it Werner, at least you got a few pulse rates to go up around here. One thing to know about forums is how to sift through the replies. You are getting good advice but... So far there's been quite a bit of piling on in this thread and damn little attempt to help educate a new member that's new to boating and that's a shame. Take your time and use the search function a bit and see what comes up.
 
Greetings,
Mr. W. I see no need to wait until you go west. You should take the opportunity to go on any and all boats at every opportunity. You may well find a model or a make in your locale that you can also search for on the west coast. I've said before that 99% of the fun is in the looking and the other 100% is in the doing.

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I thought some of the boats I have looked at for sale, such as a Ocean Alexander 390, Canoe Cove, Cheer Men Bros and a lovely 42 ft Garren Blakely designed by Monk would be what are slow, heavy boats suitable for my needs. The twins in my non educated opinion are for safety and maneuverability in close quarters around marinas. I really don't care about speed. Some have bow thrusters - perhaps not needed on twins as the twins cancel out issues of prop walk in tight quarters?

Would these boats not be displacement hulls? Looking at the speeds advertised I assumed they would be. Would it be better to concentrate on single engine boats?
I see the Ocean 390 you are talking about - twin 300hp Volvo TAMD 61A. A very expensive engine to maintain, and two of them. Turbo-charged. Should do 20+ knots. 3'2" draft is far from a deep protected keel. Though it would be possible to operate this boat at displacement speeds, this is pretty far from being a trawler. It is, however, the same type of motoryacht as the other brands I mentioned and Ocean Alexanders have a strong following in the PNW and would probably be on the same level as Tollycraft. Canoe Cove makes similar style boats but almost all of them stay up in Canada for some reason. Flat sheer, they have a rather distinctive style and their own following.

I have no idea about the Cheer Men, but the Garren Blakely has some features that look odd to me. It appears that it was remodeled a bit to make it more like a condo liveaboard. It's rare to see a full size home dishwasher on a boat this size. And a central vac. And under-counter lighting. Locating the entertainment electronics under the port side sliding window looks to be an extremely poor decision. Note the water stains on the wood above and nearby. And note that the only exit from the cabin is out onto the aft deck (those sliding windows are too small, and the side deck too narrow to exit). Twin 210hp Cats might get this boat up to 13 knots. All of that exterior woodwork appears degraded - and there's a lot of it around that aft deck enclosure. As for seaworthiness, that aft deck with a heavy RIB with 4 stroke on top looks top heavy. No picture of the engine room also gives me pause. Where did you read that this boat was designed by Ed Monk? I can't imagine Sr or Jr would have put that oversized hardtop over the reversed bulwark at the stern.

I'd take a good look at the Ocean. In fact, my gut feel is that boat sells quickly at that price.
 
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As opposed to the modern run of expensive maxi-trawlers with their absurd windage and top-heavy motion at sea, here you’ll find a smart combination of a proven seaworthy design, quality manufacture, and most importantly for a vessel this age – a long history of Meticulous Upkeep and Improvements! This lovingly cared for trawler comes from the sharp pencil of naval architect Ed Monk Jr., renowned in part for his efforts with the Ocean Alexander line of trawlers, and was built at Garren Blakely Yachts Ltd. In Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, a yard well respected for its line of commercial fishing trawlers.
This is from a ad for another Ocean Alexander for sale. I assumed that it would mean all Ocean Alexanders were designed by Monk and then built in the Blakely yard. Not so?

The trawler part confuses me - what classes a boat as a trawler if these boats aren't?

I do thank you Keith for pointing out all those items. I did notice the rail needs some work - sanding and re-varnish? Didn't notice the rest at all except would have to ask for pics of the engine room. 13 knots is good with us. Thinking cruise at 6-8 knots would be the usual speed when exploring the coast. It does look like a great live aboard though with all its comforts - on the other end of the scale from the C&C boat I was looking at. Thing that bothered me the most, as we would be on this boat a lot - the master bed against walls on all sides but one. Someone has to crawl over the other to get out... But those things you mention about sea worthiness are certainly things to consider. Hawgwash, I will check that link. Thank you.
 
"The trawler part confuses me - what classes a boat as a trawler if these boats aren't? "

Don't get hung up on that trawler term. It's fairly meaningless. Just find a boat that does what you want it to, and most importantly that was owned previously by a caring person who took care of the boat and all the systems.
 
The trawler part confuses me - what classes a boat as a trawler if these boats aren't?

Just think of "Trawler" as a marketing term and then ignore it. When I was looking for boats, I used a variety of terms in my Yachtworld searches. These included "Trawler, Tug, Motor Yacht, Cruiser and Pilothouse". You never know if the broker will arbitrarily label a boat the same way we would arbitrarily label a boat.

Walk around berths are not as common in the age of boat that your budget dictates.
 
Werner; you are retired and using the internet as your learning tool. Both good things.

Take a chunk of you old work day and spend it on line learning about boats. Start with displacement, semi-displacement and planing hulls. Read up on "hull speed." Research live aboard boating. Go through the topics here in all the different folders. Take your time.

Take another chunk of your old work day to go hang around boaters. Lots of commercial guys where you live. Get friendly with them. Walk docks, look at all the boats, commercial, recreational, pretty ones and junkers. Visit yards. Look at boat shapes out of the water. Talk to as many owners as you can. Ask questions.
Werner; said:
Any ideas on whether best to go through a broker or a private sale?
In my opinion, you are a way ahead of yourself on that one and certainly you don't want to be dealing with private owners on another coast. Many of them would love you.

Get friendly with some local brokers. You don't have to commit to anything. Just tell them what you are thinking, let them be another information tool and listen to them. That doesn't mean believe everything they say...just listen and absorb.

Read up on kayaking on the BC coast.

Oh, yeah, one other thing and I'm just stating not slagging. Being a child in Qualicum and having relatives on Vancouver Island does not make you even remotely familiar with the west coast and those remote areas you dream of.

Take your time.
 
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Keith, you need an appointment with a Gastroenterologist.
You think it's not well priced? If it were in Seattle at $73K (US) it would be sold within a week. If someone is looking for a modern looking (1980s with little to no exterior wood) Ocean Alexander between 36 and 45, feet this is by far the least expensive. And the next two (42s) are also Canadian. The least expensive here in the US part of the PNW is another 42 for $179K (US) in Port Hadlock (somewhat geographically remote). Lots of engine room pics look well above average for a 30 year old boat, relatively unmolested overall (even the wiring looks mostly acceptable). What don't you like about this boat? The bedcover in the forward stateroom? :)

I am a bit curious about the 2 new props. And that recently painted Aqualift.
 
Don't rush the process. Don't try to jump into focusing on a specific builder. You need to look at a lot of boats before it will be ready to choose the one. With each boat, think of what you like and don't like about it. I'd recommend starting a list or even spreadsheet of the boats you're observing. Then at some point you'll be able to say, these are the features I want on my boat. These are the preferred and these are the absolute that if it doesn't have it's a deal breaker. Only at that point will specific builders become relevant and start getting most of your attention.

Going through this process is what will take you from scatter shooting at boats that are totally different and if you like one you probably wouldn't like the other. This is also a couples activity. You'll have different preferences. I don't know if you've ever bought a house together but this is the same plus adding in many complications because it's also a boat.

At least right now I'd have two columns forming in my head and probably on paper too and that's "likes" and "dislikes." Not brands, but features. Not the features in absolute form, but features as to how they meet your requirements.

Also, question those requirements along the way. One that can be argued infinitum is single or twins. Decide if that's important to you and, if so, why. Be honest with yourself and deal in real facts. For instance, we choose twins, but many of the arguments for and against them are lacking. Are they more safe for long journey's? Maybe slightly, but singles go around the world all the time. Ultimately, it's that we personally like twins for handling and security and for the speeds we want. So that's all that matters, but we can't offer some great defense of twins and certainly don't suggest they are a requirement for everyone. They aren't. They're simply our preference and we have no obligation to defend it.

Things like galley up or down. Three choices-up, down, and I don't care. Don't go with your initial impulse. Get on boats. Think of how you'll use the boat. Look at the tradeoffs. This argument reminds me of the huge on in homes right now between enclosed and open kitchen. Many people feel very strongly in each direction.

Be careful of those you allow to influence you in this search. They may be applying their own prejudices and not thinking of your requirements. If they use language like you don't want brand x, they're all junk, then they're probably lacking in objectivity. I do not know a single brand about which I would make such a statement. Not even those I like least. Every boat out there has pluses and minuses. If people give you answers in absolutes, be careful. There are no absolute's in boat selection.

We're on the loop right now and the boat we're on would be wrong for 98% of all loopers. Too big, too fast, not economical, wrong styling, a hundred reasons, but perfect for us. Still, we would never try to influence you in the direction of what is right for us. And, today, we'd never attempt to tell you what boat to buy as we do not know enough about your likes, dislikes, and requirements. We don't know because you don't know yet. That brings us back to the process. You're early in it. Don't take shortcuts. Go slowly and learn. Take all the time it requires.
 
You think it's not well priced? If it were in Seattle at $73K (US) it would be sold within a week.
Over the past many months people from all over the US have been coming to BC to snap up boat bargains. Gee, I can't understand why they all walked right on by this one. For those same many months.

BTW, that boat is less than an hour away from me.
 
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Over the past many months people from all over the US have been coming to BC to snap up boat bargains. Gee, I can't understand why they all walked right on by this one. For those same many months.

Doesn't give a lowly Canadian (dollar wise) looking for a boat on the west coast a warm and fuzzy feel.
 
Doesn't give a lowly Canadian (dollar wise) looking for a boat on the west coast a warm and fuzzy feel.

I think Hawgwash is saying believe half of what you see and none of what you read on an Internet listing. Only thing for sure is there might be a boat for sale. Pictures lie
 
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...-Trawler-2927486/Richmond/Canada#.VzIQlrxe6rU

Is this the CML you are interested in? I'd take that any day over an 80 Taiwanese Trawler. C&C built good boats.

PS: Kind of wish I was in the market. I like this boat. If the engines checked out OK, a few upgrades and this could make a nice cruiser. I say that with the knowledge that TAMD40B have exchanger issues, but I understand they can be made reliable.
 
Northern Spy, yes that's the boat. I liked it but my wife doesn't. My main issue is no generator. Wife does not like the comfort level for a liveaboard, which is understandable looking at the seating in the cabin. If we buy in October we might do our first and only winter on the boat we decide on due to being between homes. Living on board we need to both agree on the best solution. What would you do to that boat to increase liveability on such a boat. Any idea on installed cost of a say 4kw genset?
 
Is this the CML you are interested in? I'd take that any day over an 80 Taiwanese Trawler. C&C built good boats.
I would probably take it over a Taiwanese trawler (which typically have problems with wood decks, various leaks into the superstructure, and failing tanks), but I'd hugely prefer that Ocean 390.

Yes, C&C built some some yar boats back in the day. And if you bring up C&C in the PNW, most folks will recall Bill Neimi's C&C 61 "Joli". I remember seeing it impounded at a dock in Seattle - it made quite an impression.

But they tried to parlay their success is racing-cruisers into a much bigger venture (even opening a yard in Europe) and quickly imploded.
 
Northern Spy, yes that's the boat. I liked it but my wife doesn't. My main issue is no generator. Wife does not like the comfort level for a liveaboard, which is understandable looking at the seating in the cabin. If we buy in October we might do our first and only winter on the boat we decide on due to being between homes. Living on board we need to both agree on the best solution. What would you do to that boat to increase liveability on such a boat. Any idea on installed cost of a say 4kw genset?
I think that CML has been over-improved already. A thruster in addition to twins? A FLIR camera? It's had some semi-recent love which makes the condition of the limited exterior woodwork puzzling.

My gut feel (and I DO have a gastroenterologist!) is that shoehorning in a generator is going to be an engineering challenge with those two large Volvos in what is not a very large engine room. There's already a 2.5kw inverter, the stove is propane, no idea what "heating" means - but I'd look at adding batteries before installing a generator. Keep in mind that the boat has been owned and operated in the PNW for 30 years (and 343 engine hours? That's odd) without a generator, so perhaps you might be better off re-examining your assumptions.
 
But they tried to parlay their success is racing-cruisers into a much bigger venture (even opening a yard in Europe) and quickly imploded.

Good point that a lot of builders haven't stayed the same their entire lives. There are some that have used a lot of different plants. Others that have changed their methods. Some improved, others lost their quality.

To me, every used boat must be judged individually. It's not just the builder that's important but the care and maintenance. dhays purchased a great boat but fully aware of it's unfortunate history. However, it's been properly repaired. I've seen others unaware that the boat they are considering once sunk. The biggest differences in equipment isn't the brand, it's the care and the condition. Then there are engine manufacturers that are considered great but had one series of problematic engines.

You mention parlaying success into implosion. Reminds me that Gunboat's auction has tentatively chosen a buyer for their operation.
 
I think Hawgwash is saying believe half of what you see and none of what you read on an Internet listing. Only thing for sure is there might be a boat for sale. Pictures lie
Yup.
It would be nice if boat listings had a section like (at least local) property listings. Original listing date and price with subsequent changes. The first time I didn't look at that OA was June last year.
 
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These ping pong boat sales have cycled through here many times before and probably will again.
I'm not following your logic here. You seem to be saying that this particular boat has resold several times recently (i.e. popular with buyers)...and that it's sat for months unsold (the opposite).

Again, what - specifically - concerns you about this particular boat at that price?
 
I'm not following your logic here. You seem to be saying that this particular boat has resold several times recently (i.e. popular with buyers)...and that it's sat for months unsold (the opposite).

Again, what - specifically - concerns you about this particular boat at that price?
Keith; for at least the last 35-40 years boats have crisscrossed the US and Canada based on "the dollar." At one time, parades of vehicles and boats came into Canada from the US. Then the other way to the extent local brokers lost a ton of repeat sales and spinoff businesses suffered. In the 90s boats were being shipped from BC to ON and the Maritimes. After '08, another round of US boats headed north. Now they are going the other way.

My comment went to the current lack of inventory. Good inventory.

Nothing to do with the current OA, if we are in fact talking about the same one. If your hormones are afire over it, come get it, take it home and flip it. Make a lot of people happy.
 
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The C&C actually has over 2000 hrs on the engines, not sure why they read 343. If we were to look at it I guess that would be a big question. If you don't have a generator you need to run the main engines to charge the batteries unless you go to a marina? I wonder how many days you can run on the batteries if yo on the hook in a remote area before you need to get those motors going. Is it possible to charge them using a portable generator like a Honda. I guess the difficulty is the connection.

I also prefer the Ocean 390. Not coming out until October so will see whats out there then... For those on the Pacific NW, is October OK to come out to check boats?
 
Werner, look at listings for late '80's 42 Jefferson Sundeck. It is a Taiwanese boat, but I enjoy mine and it meets many of your criteria (center line aft cabin, twin diesel, plenty of room for two to live, in the price range). Not sure that the fuel capacity would work, however.

Something like this (not affiliated, just as an example):

1988 Jefferson 42 Aft Cabin Motoryacht Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

In your situation, I think the best thing you can do now is go look at boats nearby. The more boats you step foot on, the better you will be able to narrow down your search. And don't limit boats by exterior appearances. There are boats that I thought looked great from the outside that were not laid out well on the inside and visa versa. Also, as many have said about older boats, name and age begin to mean less than how it has been maintained. Good luck!
 
The C&C actually has over 2000 hrs on the engines,
Where did you learn that? The listing says 343/340 and "LOW hours on her Volvo engines"
I wonder how many days you can run on the batteries if yo on the hook in a remote area
Depends. Consumption, battery age and size etc.
For those on the Pacific NW, is October OK to come out to check boats?
Any time is a good time. October is probably better than July. You can see leaks; how damp and stinky they are.

Are your relatives in BC boat wise? If so, use them.
 
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The C&C actually has over 2000 hrs on the engines, not sure why they read 343. If we were to look at it I guess that would be a big question. If you don't have a generator you need to run the main engines to charge the batteries unless you go to a marina? I wonder how many days you can run on the batteries if yo on the hook in a remote area before you need to get those motors going. Is it possible to charge them using a portable generator like a Honda. I guess the difficulty is the connection.

I also prefer the Ocean 390. Not coming out until October so will see whats out there then... For those on the Pacific NW, is October OK to come out to check boats?

Any time of year is fine to check boats, if you don't mind some cold and rain.

I came from sailboats and never had a generator. We did OK at anchor for a few days without motoring. However, we were frugal with our power usage. My guess is that you may want to use more power than we did. You can install a Genset, or use a portable like a Honda. The other option, depending on the boat and your usage, is to install a couple solar panels. They can extend your time between charging signficantly, particularly here in the PNW in June-Aug.

I would strongly suggest that you come out and charter a boat for a long weekend or week. You will learn a lot about what features you really like and what you don't. I think Chartering in the Fall would be good as you get a chance to experience the realities of year round boating and likely can get attractive off-season charter rates.
 

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