I failed at impeller install

Puffin_NT32 said:

For those responding about removing the pump for impeller replacement, the Cummins gear-driven pump installating doesn't accomodate that. Access to the pump attachment bolts are blocked by port side, front motor mount (and other plumbing), and that pump removal requires jacking that point of the engine slightly to remove that foward motor mount. There are some Cummins engines that have a belt-driven raw water pump which can be easily removed.

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http://bertram31.com/newbb/viewtopic.php?t=4284

Apparently you can make this an easier job by doing a shim modification to the mount.

Note: To remove the whole pump on the Cummins 6bt with factory mounts just shim the mount between the block 1/2 in. and add longer bolts. Its easy if you do it before initial install but many of you may have the 3/8-1/2in needed in the slot for the shim. I just cut the pallet shipping mounts and used it for a shim since the bolt pattern was already there.

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dwhatty said:

What he said.

I installed the SeaMax pump a couple of years ago when our Sherwood bit the dust. Removed the fuel cooler (just last week). Bought a piston ring compressor. This spring's impeller change went fast and easy and the pump has been trouble free. Didn't have to use any four letter words or shed any blood. Life is good.

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David --

Is the SeaMAx pump a direct bolt-on replacement? I've also heard recommendations of the Super T-Series pumps.

Vic

Update

Tried again to install the impeller using the ring compressor. The ring compressor worked great but I still could put the impeller on.

Today, the mechanic who was reinstalling the HX and aftercooler tried. He had no luck. I had two impellers. The one I had been trying to put on was the spare that came with the boat. On a whim, we tried the new spare that I just bought. It went on in 30 seconds. Even though they both were factory impellers with the same part number, one of them had slightly different splines that kept it from going on.

I don't feel quite so incompetent now. I also think the ring compressor is a good idea. Now I need to go buy another "spare". Those things are stupid expensive.

FWIW, when this pump needs to be rebuilt, I will likely just replace with the SeaMax pump. It is a bolt on replacement.

Thanks again for all the ideas and help!

SHASA III said:

David --

Is the SeaMAx pump a direct bolt-on replacement?

Vic

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Yes.

Art said:

Andy is the inventor's name. He needs pump number or impeller number to match tool. Costs range from $27.50 for smallest to $254.35 for largest. Says he has 10 different sizes... should be good for all pumps in U.S. Can only order through him, Ph. 310 780 8543

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Hard to understand why his website has so little useful information. OK video, says get more info on the website, no further info there except for the phone number. I looked at that site quite some time ago... moths?... a year?... and assumed he didn't really want to sell anything.

Fairly aggressive prices, compared to a piston ring compression tool, or a few hose clamps, or a few more zip ties...

-Chris

$27.50 for a small plastic "funnel," yikes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
Andy is the inventor's name. He needs pump number or impeller number to match tool. Costs range from $27.50 for smallest to $254.35 for largest. Says he has 10 different sizes... should be good for all pumps in U.S. Can only order through him, Ph. 310 780 8543
_________________________________________

Hard to understand why his website has so little useful information. OK video, says get more info on the website, no further info there except for the phone number. I looked at that site quite some time ago... moths?... a year?... and assumed he didn't really want to sell anything.

Fairly aggressive prices, compared to a piston ring compression tool, or a few hose clamps, or a few more zip ties...

hmason said:

$27.50 for a small plastic "funnel," yikes!

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Does seem that one could self produce an exactly similar working unit with a little ingenuity and correct fabric. His might be quire durable. The remover tool he provides is cool. When I get chance I may call him with numbers off my pump and find cost to me. There are plenty ways to accomplish impeller removal/replacements. If his tools saved me 50% off efforts and work time... each time... his cost might well have value.

He does not speak English too well and probably doesn't well know how to price things or how to market them.

No Mast said:

Everything Howard said and some patience.

if it still doesn't work, try putting the old impeller back in. if it goes in double check you have the right replacement.

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Sometimes one that was sold to you as an exact replacement, isn't.

Maybe the spare that came with the boat was in a box (if it was in a box) that had the right number on the box, but the wrong impeller inside?

Steve said:

Maybe the spare that came with the boat was in a box (if it was in a box) that had the right number on the box, but the wrong impeller inside?

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That is what is odd. All the impellers (the one in the pump, the spare on the boat, and the new one I just bought this week) had exactly the same markings from factory on the impellers themselves. They all had the manufacturer (Sherwood) and the part number (27000) printed on the impeller itself. They all had the same number of splines but the one just wouldn't fit over the shaft. Very strange.

I am going to order another one now so I have a spare on board.

I once took my transmission oil coolers apart and found lots of rubber pieces from failed impellers inside. Curious, as since I have owned this boat, (1994) I haven't yet had any vanes come off of the impeller. I have had other types of water pump failures, but never an impeller.
Are they making impellers of better stuff in the last 20 years?

dhays said:

That is what is odd. All the impellers (the one in the pump, the spare on the boat, and the new one I just bought this week) had exactly the same markings from factory on the impellers themselves. They all had the manufacturer (Sherwood) and the part number (27000) printed on the impeller itself. They all had the same number of splines but the one just wouldn't fit over the shaft. Very strange.

I am going to order another one now so I have a spare on board.

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How old was the spare? Impellers do tend to harden over time, even in packaging. We have a replacement schedule for those in our spares. Then the other aspect, your boat is depending on a cheap little piece, probably cost a dollar to make, so how good is the consistency and quality control? Always has gotten me on equipment and boats, you have a $250k piece of machinery and you're at the mercy of a 50 cent piece of plastic.

BandB said:

How old was the spare? Impellers do tend to harden over time, even in packaging. We have a replacement schedule for those in our spares. Then the other aspect, your boat is depending on a cheap little piece, probably cost a dollar to make, so how good is the consistency and quality control? Always has gotten me on equipment and boats, you have a $250k piece of machinery and you're at the mercy of a 50 cent piece of plastic.

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$0.50 piece of plastic is OK... long as it's well designed and made correctly with correct materials. A $25K to $75K engine can also be the fail-point.

Seems to me... the bottom line is to have good parts and parcels as well as stringently adhered to maintenance/replacement schedules.

Easier said than done!

BandB said:

How old was the spare? Impellers do tend to harden over time, even in packaging. We have a replacement schedule for those in our spares. Then the other aspect, your boat is depending on a cheap little piece, probably cost a dollar to make, so how good is the consistency and quality control? Always has gotten me on equipment and boats, you have a $250k piece of machinery and you're at the mercy of a 50 cent piece of plastic.

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No idea how old the spare was. The vans were still very pliable however. The problem with the fit wasn't the vanes but the splines that need to mate up with the splines on the shaft.

I just ordered another spare from Amazon. There it was only $79. When ordered through my local chandlery it was $110. Sherwood must think very highly of their impellers.

Even brand new impellers may not be a working fit...had one for an Onan last sumner not work...second buy worked perfectly.

Funny how the broken older one was working fine and passed the sea trial for sale...

dhays said:

No idea how old the spare was. The vans were still very pliable however. The problem with the fit wasn't the vanes but the splines that need to mate up with the splines on the shaft.

I just ordered another spare from Amazon. There it was only $79. When ordered through my local chandlery it was $110. Sherwood must think very highly of their impellers.

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Cautionary I affix to "Net-Found" items:

Be careful of quality control.

Some net-found items can be from poor manufacturers, or seconds from a reputable manufacturer, or out dated with material composition compromised due to time since manufacturing.

That said - some net-found items are just fine!

To SDOWNEY's comment on shim modification... at the recommendation of Seaboard Marine, I did that when I installed the Seamax pump. Enclosed, you can see the 1/2" aluminum shim plate between the engine block and motor mount. The football shaped flange base of the pump has two 15mm bolts and the shim pushes the motor mount more to port, and theoretically, allows you to get a socket on that inboard bolt (see ratchet extension along the engine block). Only problem, at least in my installation, you'll need a convoluted mix of extensions and universal sockets to get at that bolt. Removing the fuel cooler and related plumbing will simplify the whole process, and when I need to remove pump, I'll remove the cooler as well.

dhays said:

The one I had been trying to put on was the spare that came with the boat.

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May just be my luck, but I've learned to be very skeptical of spare parts that come when purchasing a used boat. Rubber pieces don't age well even if technically they're still "new". Steel pieces rust if not stored well. And I always wind up with lots of spares that don't fit anything installed on the boat.

tcpip95 said:

Take a look at this: Impeller Installation Tool

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The funnel thingy may work, but I wonder how well it copes with the larger impellers.

Not too impressed with the look of the extractor though. In my experience, you can't beat the Jabsco pullers.

Puffin_NT32 said:

To SDOWNEY's comment on shim modification... at the recommendation of Seaboard Marine, I did that when I installed the Seamax pump. Enclosed, you can see the 1/2" aluminum shim plate between the engine block and motor mount. The football shaped flange base of the pump has two 15mm bolts and the shim pushes the motor mount more to port, and theoretically, allows you to get a socket on that inboard bolt (see ratchet extension along the engine block). Only problem, at least in my installation, you'll need a convoluted mix of extensions and universal sockets to get at that bolt. Removing the fuel cooler and related plumbing will simplify the whole process, and when I need to remove pump, I'll remove the cooler as well.

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Good picture there, looks similar as getting to bolts on engine starters.
Some are just about impossible, can not see, have to feel your way.

Jabsco Puller

HiDHo said:

Jabsco Puller

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My boat is kept in what once was a little fishing village. It isn't little anymore, the fishing fleet isn't as large, and the boat builders are long gone. BUT, it is blessed with a small West Marine store (don't have much but can get anything shipped there for free) and an independent chandlery that makes its money selling kayaks and paddleboards but has a small but decent supply of boating hardware and supplies. I always check there first for things I need to buy. If they don't have it in stock, they will order it fast. They aren't the cheapest, but I want them to stay in business so I give them as much of my business as I can. Having a brick and mortar independent chandlery is a huge asset.

Anyway, they ordered me a Sea-Dog impeller puller which cost about $50. It worked really well and is about 1/2 the cost of the Jabsco impeller puller.

I wish I had read a tip on the Seaboard Marine website before I removed the impeller however. The pump had been sitting dry for close to two weeks since the HX and aftercooler had been pulled out for servicing. Even with the puller, it was tough to get out since the vanes were all stuck to to the inside of the pump. The Seaboard Marine tip is something that I'm sure that most of you already know but just in case....

"This is something that should and needs to be done with ALL impellers when you are removing them… Once the cover plate is removed, you need to spray WD-40 (or something similar) inside the housing and into the spline or key & shaft area (liberally) and then BUMP the engine. Then spray it one more time and bump the engine again… TWO times and now that impeller is ready to be removed.Once you do that, it will “break” the dry bond that always seems to occur between the rubber and the housing and also loosen up the spline (or key). This is essential during any impeller removal and now the impeller will slide out EASILY.
When installing a new impeller, throw out all that crap about lubing – Use any common white lithium grease (or similar grease) and life becomes easy for all… Instant prime too. Be sloppy with it, coat all inside, shaft and impeller and I personally guarantee it with not hurt your impeller if you are planning to finish the job and test the engine within a few days or so… That old wives’ tale has got to go – But, if this makes you squeamish, then go ahead and use a synthetic or silicone based grease made specifically for all types of rubber elastomers."

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I didn't think to ask earlier: Is the Cummins 6BT impeller not center-threaded like the ones we have on the 6CT? With ours, I can just screw a long bolt into the center of it, and the impeller backs itself right out...


There's a purpose-made threaded bolt/handle thing that works too, but clearance is actually somewhat easier if I just use a long bolt with a socket and ratchet.


-Chris

ranger42c said:

I didn't think to ask earlier: Is the Cummins 6BT impeller not center-threaded like the ones we have on the 6CT? With ours, I can just screw a long bolt into the center of it, and the impeller backs itself right out...
There's a purpose-made threaded bolt/handle thing that works too, but clearance is actually somewhat easier if I just use a long bolt with a socket and ratchet.
-Chris

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On nine, Sherwood pump on 2003, 6BTM5.9 @ 210 hp the shaft is not threaded for a bolt. I do have a Jabsco puller for it.

ranger42c said:

I didn't think to ask earlier: Is the Cummins 6BT impeller not center-threaded like the ones we have on the 6CT?
-Chris

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The OEM 1700 series Sherwood pump on the 6BT or 6BTA is not.

The SeaMax replacement pump is. Makes impeller removal much, much easier. And if impeller is ordered from Seaboard, they supply a threaded puller with each impeller. (Anyone need one? I now have a few extra.)

The OEM Sherwood also has a key in a slot on the pump shaft, which key can fall out and disappear into the intake hose (ask me how I know).

Reinstalling an impeller on the OEM pump while trying to keep the key in the slot without it falling out or riding up the shaft can lead to overuse of four letter words.

The SeaMax has a splined shaft. Easy peasey.

The OEM 1700 series Sherwood pump on the 6BT or 6BTA is not.

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I had a 1700 series pump and mine were threaded. I read somewhere that they eliminated the thread, then brought it back.

I don't know about the 1700 series, but the QSB engines use the Sherwood 27000 series pump. That impeller is threaded, but I had a hard time finding a bolt to fit it (didn't run all over town however to try and find one). The 27000 impeller is splined.

dhays said:

I don't know about the 1700 series, but the QSB engines use the Sherwood 27000 series pump. That impeller is threaded, but I had a hard time finding a bolt to fit it (didn't run all over town however to try and find one). The 27000 impeller is splined.

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Dave, I think I got mine at ACE but certainly Tacoma Screw should be able to help.

windmist said:

Dave, I think I got mine at ACE but certainly Tacoma Screw should be able to help.

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Yup. I tried ACE in Gig Harbor but they didn't have anything. Traffic being what it is now days, I decided not to go to Tacoma Screw, although they definitely would have one. I have yet to come up with anything they don't have.

dhays said:

Yup. I tried ACE in Gig Harbor but they didn't have anything. Traffic being what it is now days, I decided not to go to Tacoma Screw, although they definitely would have one. I have yet to come up with anything they don't have.

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We have an excellent ACE in Port Orchard with a very good selection of nuts and bolts. I assume you don't need the bolt right now but when you find the bolt, I suggest you get two of them - one about 2 1/2" to extract the impeller and another that is 1" long. I use the short bolt when I install the impeller. I screw it into the impeller and than use a hammer to tap it home. Works great.