Propane tank fuel lock?

Thread steal...

I am going to do away with the gas stove/oven in the boat with an induction stove. ?Whats the opinion of not using a solenoid in the case where the only propane use is on the flybridge for a builtin bbq grill?

FF the timer is a great thing and the reason for it hits home solidly.

dhays said:

I tested my propane system last weekend and was not happy. I get no pressure drop from the tank to the solenoid after 3-5 minutes of the tank being closed. However, I do get a pressure drop downstream from the solenoid with the tank closed after 3-5 minutes. This means I have a small leak in the system somewhere, likely inside the boat. It will be a challenge to track down. I am hoping that it is at a fitting on the stove so is readily accessible.

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I believe that's a normal leakdown rate, but I'll wait for the pros to chime in. I just read it somewhere, but for the life of me, I can't remember where. Maybe BoatUS Seaworthy?

psneeld said:

Just illegal to transport them on the road....not sure if on a boat it would be considered transport....at least that was the warning on my refill adapter.

There used to be many you tube videos on how to do it.

Still plenty of adapters out there for sale...even from Walmart.....liability can't be too huge.

Enerco - Mr Heater F276172 Propane Tank Refill Adapter - Walmart.com

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The problem with refilling the small "one time use" cylinders is that the valves aren't made with the intention of being refilled over and over. They can leak and that is the problem.

If you stored them in a propane locker, this wouldn't be a problem, they would just empty themselves. Same with storing them outdoors at home. Store them in an enclosed space like so many folks do and you have a potential explosion.

FlyWright said:

I believe that's a normal leakdown rate, but I'll wait for the pros to chime in. I just read it somewhere, but for the life of me, I can't remember where. Maybe BoatUS Seaworthy?

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Eureka!

From BoatUS Seaworthy Magazine, April 2016, page 9



Sounds like your system is passes the ABYC standard for leakdown rate. One less thing to worry about while enjoying your nice new boat!

No, I fail. If I open the cylinder and then close it with the solenoid open I do get a pressure drop in three minutes. I just don't get one with the eh solenoid closed, which tells me the leak is downstream from the solenoid.

dhays said:

I tested my propane system last weekend and was not happy. I get no pressure drop from the tank to the solenoid after 3-5 minutes of the tank being closed. However, I do get a pressure drop downstream from the solenoid with the tank closed after 3-5 minutes.

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dhays said:

No, I fail. If I open the cylinder and then close it with the solenoid open I do get a pressure drop in three minutes. I just don't get one with the eh solenoid closed, which tells me the leak is downstream from the solenoid.

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I based my reply on your first post that it only bleeds down "after 3-5 minutes." Now you claim it really "drop(s) in three minutes".

My read on the guidelines from BoatUS is that if the pressure stays constant for 3 minutes or more, you're OK. If it's less than a 3 minute leakdown, you need maintenance.

FlyWright said:

I based my reply on your first post that it only bleeds down "after 3-5 minutes." Now you claim it really "drop(s) in three minutes".

My read on the guidelines from BoatUS is that if the pressure stays constant for 3 minutes or more, you're OK. If it's less than a 3 minute leakdown, you need maintenance.

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I will double check to see what the drop is at 3 minutes.

WesK said:

The problem with refilling the small "one time use" cylinders is that the valves aren't made with the intention of being refilled over and over. They can leak and that is the problem.

If you stored them in a propane locker, this wouldn't be a problem, they would just empty themselves. Same with storing them outdoors at home. Store them in an enclosed space like so many folks do and you have a potential explosion.

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Never had a problem in 30 years....

Usually rotate cylinders out after a few years as they get rusty anyhow.

Like all things, you just have to be smarter than what you are working with.

WesK said:

They should be in a propane locker. The propane locker is sealed, the lid is on the top and it has a vent through to the outside of the boat near the waterline. The vent hose goes down without any loops. There should be a pressure gauge and solenoid.

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Yes. That's what I meant. I have mine in a locker under the seat on the flybridge. Room for three bottles, with solenoid and pressure gauge.

Though most sail boats I've seen just have them stored on deck someplace.

dhays said:

I will double check to see what the drop is at 3 minutes.

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Now I'm confused.

When you open the bottle valve and solenoid, you should see a pressure drop as it fills the hoses in the system. Now it depends on the last time they were used and your shutoff procedure, but...

Also, don't get caught up in "3 minutes", so if it's 3.1 it's OK? Obviously NOT.

Once your system is pressurized and nothing is on, then there should be NO continued pressure drop, like forever, or until the the next cold season, whichever comes first.

In fact, the more I think about it, 3 minutes means nothing. Who comes up with this stuff?

That's like saying it would be normal for propane to take 3 minutes to get to your grill or stove. If I had to wait 3 minutes to light my stove, I would have blown myself up my now just from boredom.

You should see a pressure drop or not pretty quickly, less than a minute. But then it should be steady.

Wxx3 said:

Yes. That's what I meant. I have mine in a locker under the seat on the flybridge. Room for three bottles, with solenoid and pressure gauge.

Though most sail boats I've seen just have them stored on deck someplace.

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I occasionally do my Marine Survey 101 talks for yacht clubs, power squadron etc. One of the things I bring along is an unused 3-pack of those small bottles .... all of them empty. Thankfully they were kept in my ABYC compliant propane locker.

It says, if ANY leakage is noted within 3 minutes there is a problem. Technically, there should be no leak whatsoever. So if the gauge starts to drop after 3 minutes that means it's ok? Not for me. It's still a leak, just less of a leak. I wouldn't be satisfied with any level of leak. I know that around here, when testing new piping in a house, the system is pressurized and left overnight and ANY drop noted the next day means a leak has to be found and fixed.

Ken

Wxx3 said:

In fact, the more I think about it, 3 minutes means nothing. Who comes up with this stuff?

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ABYC comes up with it.

Wxx3 said:

You should see a pressure drop or not pretty quickly, less than a minute. But then it should be steady.

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I rechecked. I start to get a pressure drop before 3 minutes. Therefore I fail the ABYC standard. Not that the standard is written on stone tablets, but it is created by experienced folks who are a lot smarter than I. So if I don't meet that minimum standard, then I should do something.

Next step is trying to identify the location of the leak. If I had to guess it would be at the stove. If it isn't at the stove, nor that the solenoid, then I have a bigger problem than I had hoped.

"Run another properly protected line from your already properly installed propane locker."

When purchasing a USCG labeled propane hose at the Hyd shop , ask if you can take a long discarded large hyd hose.

Run your hyd hose with the propane line inside.

IMPERVIOUS to anchors or shifting tool boxes! and usually free.

Xsbank said:

You should always turn off the propane solenoid when you are not using propane because the solenoid is cooled by the flowing gas. The solenoid itself is oil-filled for cooling but forgetting to shut off can cause the unit to overheat and fail, they are expensive and a nuisance to replace. I installed a light over the stove as a telltale to remind me.

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I've installed and worked in quite a few gas solenoids and never noticed nor seen any evidence of that.

Where is the oil supposedly contained, around the coil?

A follow up on my OP. After spending some time figuring out what the system does etc., there is a switch in the galley to shut off the gas up top on that lock out. There seemed to be a drain in the system as the gauge would go from 100psi to 0 overnight with everything closed. So today I went to Home Depot and for $25 got a hand held gas sniffer. I went around all the fittings, tank and lines that are exposed and with gas off found nothing. Opened the tank and did it again. This time I found a small leak at the fabric coated line between the lock off and the regulator at the fitting. It goes yellow on the sniffer and even red once or twice but would not stay there. I went back and found it 3 times so its not an anomaly. I had to have the sniffer in just the right place but its there. I could not detect it with my nose however and I have a good nose. For $25 I think the sniffer is a great buy. Will be replacing that line now.

Great find! That's a cheap boat tool that perhaps should be on all propane boats. Can you post a link to your model?

BrassCraft Gas Leak Detector for Natural, Liquid Propane, Butane and Methane Gas Detection-BCGLD01 X6 - The Home Depot


This one.

Thanks!

"For $25 I think the sniffer is a great buy"

Some Joy in a cup of water and a paint brush is probably on board already.

When you find a leak send $12.50 to ............

FF said:

"For $25 I think the sniffer is a great buy"

Some Joy in a cup of water and a paint brush is probably on board already.

When you find a leak send $12.50 to ............

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In fact like most I do have those on hand, however I don't feel that I wasted my money on the sniffer.

FF said:

"For $25 I think the sniffer is a great buy"

Some Joy in a cup of water and a paint brush is probably on board already.

When you find a leak send $12.50 to ............

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There can be very small leaks on the back side of a hose or fitting that you can't see with that method. I know you will simply say to look at all sides of a fitting, but we all know there are some places in a boat where that is impossible even with inspection mirrors.

For most boats there are usually only 1 or two propane users.

The range and perhaps a propane reefer.

Its not like electric goodies where there may be 200 connections burried someplace..

And one connection is outside in the bright sunshine!

YRMV

FF said:

For most boats there are usually only 1 or two propane users.

The range and perhaps a propane reefer.

Its not like electric goodies where there may be 200 connections burried someplace..

And one connection is outside in the bright sunshine!

YRMV

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Good point.

Another update. The faulty line was replaced and then all tested. Fail. It still leaked, just less. So I had the guys who made the line come over, found a couple more leaks with their high tech sniffer and pink fluid. One in the old regulator and another at the shutoff valve under the stove lid. Admittedly my little sniffer didn't find these leaks. So a week later he and another guy come by and replace all of that with new and all appears well. Almost. About two hours after they left we lost about 5 PSI. Overnight we lost another 20, then over the next 24 hours it lost just another 4psi! Now that seems kind of strange or perhaps as the pressure drops there is less push to get out. Beats me. I will be calling the guys back tomorrow. I asked the PO if anyone ever used any of the systems on the boat, like on an overnight cruise or something?? Never replied Boat was more neglected than I thought.

For folks installing a propane range , remember propane is made from oil and will still have some in it.

To make the appliance run better it is common to install a T with a 6 inch piece of pipe or tubing pointing down.

This works as an oil or dirt trap , and might need to be cleaned every few years.

Just for cooking a 20# should go a few months 2 or 3.

The gas reefer folks will go thru a 20# every month or so .

The reefer folks would need to check the down leg annually with a US propane source , more often for refills outside the USA.