I failed at impeller install

Capt.Bill11 said:

Depends on the diesel and depends on the day. I've gotten away with it plenty of times.



But I've also seen them fire off with not much more than a bump.

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Thanks.

Mine fires off really quickly so that's why I was wondering.

OK, just curious here....why is it necessary to bump the ignition to get the key at the top?

Take a look at this: Impeller Installation Tool

I just changed out the impeller in my Lehman last sunday. Wife timed me and said 15 minutes.
Old one came out with needle nose vise grips, Wife bumped the starter two times and it pulled out easily.
I did not use a compressor for installation I used the lube packet that came with the impeller (Johnson) and with a slight twist while squeezing the vanes and a push it slid right in.
You just need a little practice.

jleonard said:

I just changed out the impeller in my Lehman last sunday. Wife timed me and said 15 minutes.
Old one came out with needle nose vise grips, Wife bumped the starter two times and it pulled out easily.
I did not use a compressor for installation I used the lube packet that came with the impeller (Johnson) and with a slight twist while squeezing the vanes and a push it slid right in.
You just need a little practice.

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That works great for small to medium sized impellers. But when you get to the big ones, it's a whole other story.

twistedtree said:

That works great for small to medium sized impellers. But when you get to the big ones, it's a whole other story.

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Yeah... I can't compress (enough), twist, and push ours at the same time. Especially on the pump I can't reach easily.

-Chris

tcpip95 said:

Take a look at this: Impeller Installation Tool

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Really cool looking/working tool... see the video. I contacted and asked where to purchase.

hmason said:

How frustrating. Compress the vanes with a series of wire ties. Don't worry which way they compress they will fix themselves when the pump starts. Lube the impeller and shaft generously with grease of some sort; I use white lithium grease. As you push the impeller into the housing, cut each wire tie as it reaches the edge of the housing.

Hope this works for you. Good luck.

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Respectfully Howard,

I would be very careful with type of grease as most grease(s) yes ! even vasoline will eat the rubber in the impeller. ( tried that n done it ) I find that dishwashing soap works great ! ....... FB

GFC said:

. . . I cut the middle section out of an empty milk jug, making the section about 3" tall and the strip long enough to go all the way around the impeller and overlap an inch or two.


I wrap the section around the impellers then put the zip ties on the outside of the plastic strip. As I tighten the zip ties (I use 2 because of the height of the impeller) it forces the plastic strip to compress the vanes on the impeller. . . . .

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Same idea. 1-gallon ice cream containers that look like Tupperware are also a good source of this slippery material.

Use pure silicone grease or wash-up liquid as a lube.

Ex Sailor said:

Respectfully Howard,

I would be very careful with type of grease as most grease(s) yes ! even vasoline will eat the rubber in the impeller. ( tried that n done it ) I find that dishwashing soap works great ! ....... FB

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Agree


KY is also "safe" if you happen to have some in your "tool box"

Lots of other uses aboard

Now that the group has heard the many tricks used (don't forget swearing a lot too) a question comes to mind:

How many months or hours do your main engine impellers last? Mine on Jabscos get changed out every 18 months or about 200 hours. They come out looking good, which is how I want it.

sitting my kill them more than working...also depends on how clean the water going through them is in terms of trash/sediment.


my Lehman ones easily do a 400 hr, 5 month trip to Fl and back. if 200 hrs is your annual trip, then they sit for months...not sure...but a change can't hurt unless the replacements are junk.


on my 3208s that got winterized every year...they were pulled and sat on the bench next to the pump till spring...they lasted 3 years easy at around 100-150 hrs a year...and they were beefy impellers...the kind hand gripping replacing was almost impossible.

twistedtree said:

That works great for small to medium sized impellers. But when you get to the big ones, it's a whole other story.

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I agree. I have been changing impellers for a number of years now. Never had this problem but have never tried to change one thus size either.

Art said:

Really cool looking/working tool... see the video. I contacted and asked where to purchase.

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It looks just like something I have imagined in the past. Nice to see someone actually pursued the idea. Let us know what you find out.

All good advice, personally I use washing up liquid for dishes and it works a treat, hand towels easily clean any excess.
I also changed my impeller cover to a 'Speedseal', I bought the 'Run Dry kit' for belt and braces.
Basically it's a modified face plate and instead of those 6 little fiddly screws, one always manages to go down into the bilge.
It uses 4 knurled nuts which you undo by hand, swing the plate to one side, change the impeller, swing the plate back, tighten the knurled nuts and your ready to go.
It's especially useful if you burn out an impeller and need a fast replacement.

Speedseels are great but on my new boat I only have three 13mm bolts to remove the cover. That part is easy.

sunchaser said:

...How many months or hours do your main engine impellers last? Mine on Jabscos get changed out every 18 months or about 200 hours. They come out looking good, which is how I want it.

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psneeld said:

...
my Lehman ones easily do a 400 hr, 5 month trip to Fl and back. if 200 hrs is your annual trip, then they sit for months...not sure...but a change can't hurt unless the replacements are junk...

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We change ours annually, on our schedule. Usually, any where from 200-400 hours. They all good coming out but I'm not willing to try to squeeze more time. It's a 10 minute job without having to go hunting for missing impellor blades.

Larry M said:

We change ours annually, on our schedule. Usually, any where from 200-400 hours. They all good coming out but I'm not willing to try to squeeze more time. It's a 10 minute job without having to go hunting for missing impellor blades.

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I let mine go for an extra year this time, so it was 3 seasons and maybe 500 hours.
It had no cracked vanes everything looked good.

That works great for small to medium sized impellers. But when you get to the big ones, it's a whole other story.

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I changed the one on my Cummins which is the 1700 series pump and I did that without a compressor also. It just took many attempts because that pump had a keyway and I had trouble getting that started. Oh yea the key fell into the intake hose and that added a good bit of time to retrieve it.
So it can be done

When you use the piston ring compressor method, do you lubricate the impeller before compressing it? I imagine that is necessary to get it to slide out of the device. Right?

hmason said:

When you use the piston ring compressor method, do you lubricate the impeller before compressing it? I imagine that is necessary to get it to slide out of the device. Right?

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I would imagine so. I picked up a piston ring compressor on my way home from the office yesterday. $4.99. If it works, it will be the best five bucks I've ever spent on a boat. I will try tonight.

I will use Superlube. I have used it before in the past with success. FWIW, Tony Athens at Boatdiesel.com claims that you can you any grease you want and not worry about it damaging the impeller. He considers that a myth. Tony has very strong opinions, but he has lots of experience on Cummins engines like mine. I will stick with the Superlube that I've used for years.

dhays said:

I would imagine so. I picked up a piston ring compressor on my way home from the office yesterday. $4.99. If it works, it will be the best five bucks I've ever spent on a boat. I will try tonight.

I will use Superlube. I have used it before in the past with success. FWIW, Tony Athens at Boatdiesel.com claims that you can you any grease you want and not worry about it damaging the impeller. He considers that a myth. Tony has very strong opinions, but he has lots of experience on Cummins engines like mine. I will stick with the Superlube that I've used for years.

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Good luck. Let us know how it goes. If you are successful, I'm on my way to Autozone.

hmason said:

When you use the piston ring compressor method, do you lubricate the impeller before compressing it? I imagine that is necessary to get it to slide out of the device. Right?

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Yes, lube it up.

For a while I was using silicon spray, but someone told be silicon grease works better because to stays on better. Used it this last time and agree the grease works much better.

As for change intervals, I agree it's much more about calendar time than engine hours, especially if the boat is laid up. If you put your boat away for the season, I think it's always worth changing the impellers as part of recommissioning.

dhays said:

It looks just like something I have imagined in the past. Nice to see someone actually pursued the idea. Let us know what you find out.

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Dave - Let you know what I find. No reply today. I emailed the inventor/owner. Think that was the only contact offered on the website. Video makes it look easy! Several diameter inserts appear to come in the package??? Real nice added tool for impeller extraction.


Edit: I went back into website. Noticed order # (310) 780-8543. I may call tomorrow. Need to know if the several diameter inserts shown come in package; along with what the price is.

Art said:

Dave - Let you know what I find. No reply today. I emailed the inventor/owner. Think that was the only contact offered on the website. Video makes it look easy! Several diameter inserts appear to come in the package??? Real nice added tool for impeller extraction.


Edit: I went back into website. Noticed order # (310) 780-8543. I may call tomorrow. Need to know if the several diameter inserts shown come in package; along with what the price is.

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My guess is you buy the size you need individually.

I have a Sherwood pump on a 6BTM 5.9 I have always used a nylon zip cable tie to compress the vanes and lubed with liquid soap. no problems. I do orient the vanes in the right direction although they will self orient if that is not done

Capt.Bill11 said:

My guess is you buy the size you need individually.

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Andy is the inventor's name. He needs pump number or impeller number to match tool. Costs range from $27.50 for smallest to $254.35 for largest. Says he has 10 different sizes... should be good for all pumps in U.S. Can only order through him, Ph. 310 780 8543

Best Luck! - If you call Andy... tell him Art sent ya. I mentioned we in TF are discussing his pump impeller replacement tool. New product inventors/marketers can always use a helping hand... been there, done that with my own construction building tool products.

PS: I'm 100 miles from boat and due to circumstances not able to get to boat very soon; otherwise I'd give him the pump number and try his tool out. Soooo... if anyone on TF tries it out before I get opportunity please post your results onto this thread. TY - Art

Hmmm, I always remove the pump to replace the impeller.
Hardest job removing the old one. And that is not too hard usually.
Easiest job putting in the new one. Seriously never had much troubles.
Perhaps if the shaft was damaged, the impeller wont want to fit.

That has happened once on a Jabsco raw water pump. The shaft somehow, the splines were slightly mangled by a previous owner? (POV, previous owner virus). The new impeller, I could not get it to slide all the way down. impeller was binding on the pump shaft. I had to press out the shaft and file on the shaft, either a spline was mangled or maybe someone had hammered the shaft end.

You could take your old impeller, cut off the vanes and see if the impeller core slides easily all the way on the shaft without any binding. If it gets down partway and hangs up, a simple fix might be take some metal valve grinding compound, and work the impeller on the shaft to grind away an imperfection in the shaft.

Dave,

I feel your pain. I've replaced impellers on my Cummins 6BTA 5.9 every 2 years until the Sherwood P.O.S pump failed after 8 years (and yours will fail). Many of the suggestions here are valid.

To remove the impeller, Tony Athens (Seaboard Marine and boatdiesel.com) suggests liberal spray of WD40 and bump the starter and the impeller should work its way out. If not, continue with the puller. Disconnect the wire connector leading to your fuel solenoid and that will prevent the engine from starting.

To install, wrap the impeller with 2 to 3 wide wire ties compressed well below the size of the housing. Slather shaft and impeller with a lot of grease (I use lithium grease) or Dawn detergent, and push impeller into housing. If necessary, tap it in gently with a piece of wood (cut broom handle). Line up keyway by bumping engine.

As I mentioned, my Sherwood pump failed 3 years ago and I replaced it with Seaboard Marine's SeaMax pump. Better design, better quality, with a splined shaft that makes inserting impeller easier, and a threaded impeller face with a removal bolt that comes with the new impellers. The cramped placement of these pumps on Cummins engines are always an issue. My engine doesn't have an aftercooler, and the hose coming off the pump feeds the fuel cooler. I remove that hose to the cooler just to give me more room to remove and insert the impeller. In fact, Seaboard Marine recommends removing the fuel cooler, considered a vistigual component in 99% of engine installs.

For those responding about removing the pump for impeller replacement, the Cummins gear-driven pump installating doesn't accomodate that. Access to the pump attachment bolts are blocked by port side, front motor mount (and other plumbing), and that pump removal requires jacking that point of the engine slightly to remove that foward motor mount. There are some Cummins engines that have a belt-driven raw water pump which can be easily removed.

sdowney717 said:

Hmmm, I always remove the pump to replace the impeller.
Hardest job removing the old one. And that is not too hard usually.
Easiest job putting in the new one. Seriously never had much troubles.
Perhaps if the shaft was damaged, the impeller wont want to fit.

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I agree with this. I have a belt-driven Sherwood pump on my 1989 6BT5.9 engines. Both pumps were rebuilt 3 years ago...once they fail, I'll go with the current recommendations. Much easier to work on the pumps on a bench.

Vic

Puffin_NT32 said:

Dave,


As I mentioned, my Sherwood pump failed 3 years ago and I replaced it with Seaboard Marine's SeaMax pump. Better design, better quality, with a splined shaft that makes inserting impeller easier, and a threaded impeller face with a removal bolt that comes with the new impellers. The cramped placement of these pumps on Cummins engines are always an issue. My engine doesn't have an aftercooler, and the hose coming off the pump feeds the fuel cooler. I remove that hose to the cooler just to give me more room to remove and insert the impeller. In fact, Seaboard Marine recommends removing the fuel cooler, considered a vistigual component in 99% of engine installs.

For those responding about removing the pump for impeller replacement, the Cummins gear-driven pump installating doesn't accomodate that. Access to the pump attachment bolts are blocked by port side, front motor mount (and other plumbing), and that pump removal requires jacking that point of the engine slightly to remove that foward motor mount. There are some Cummins engines that have a belt-driven raw water pump which can be easily removed.

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What he said.

I installed the SeaMax pump a couple of years ago when our Sherwood bit the dust. Removed the fuel cooler (just last week). Bought a piston ring compressor. This spring's impeller change went fast and easy and the pump has been trouble free. Didn't have to use any four letter words or shed any blood. Life is good.