VW Diesels for marine

No need to worry about VW's guilty parties spending some quality time in a small, cosy facility, any more than a few bankers or lawyers in NYC will.

But maybe this rant should continue in the off-color, off-topic page.

WesK said:

Who at VW will be paying the fines? President? CEO? Engineers?

Nope. Customers will pay the fine. The price will go up or the quality will go down.

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Beg to differ. The stuckee will be the stockholders. They are in a competitive market with a largely undifferentiated product and they will be unable to pass on the added costs. Who would by a VW and Mercedes Benz prices? What is ironic is the stockholders was and is paying the executives of VW big bucks to prevent this type of thing from happening. A miserable break down in internal controls.

Greetings,
To get back to the OP. There is a world of difference between on road and marine use for a lot of motors. On road, a motor is "working" about 20% of the time. On water, a motor is "working" about 90%+ of the time. I would think a VW diesel would be too light weight for the rigors of marine use.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
To get back to the OP. There is a world of difference between on road and marine use for a lot of motors. On road, a motor is "working" about 20% of the time. On water, a motor is "working" about 90%+ of the time. I would think a VW diesel would be too light weight for the rigors of marine use.

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I agree, but tell that to Mercury Marine.

David

djmarchand said:

I agree, but tell that to Mercury Marine.

David

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I think the VW engine could do fine around 120hp in marine dress. Do the coolers and other marine hardware right and it should do ok. Big qualifier there, though.

60hp/liter.. Similar to Yanmar 4JH, Volvo 41, D4, D6, QSB 380, QSC 540, C12, C32, etc etc. All in the same ballpark.

Yanmar 6LP, 6LY, the hot Q Cummins are up at 75hp/liter and up. That's like the marine VW up around 150hp in marine dress. Doable, but sketchy.

Actually the better metric is BMEP, as engines get bigger the rpm must come down, so work per fire goes up.

And VW has a rep for making tough engines. Lots of VW stuff to gripe about, but their four banger diesels are tough.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
To get back to the OP. There is a world of difference between on road and marine use for a lot of motors. On road, a motor is "working" about 20% of the time. On water, a motor is "working" about 90%+ of the time. I would think a VW diesel would be too light weight for the rigors of marine use.

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Would not be very dependable either. Since 2009 the MK6 engine has had dependability issues. Ask me how I know! Just google VW diesel high pressure fuel pump issues. I went through 3 before 40,000 miles.

Unless you could reprogram the ECU for Marine use i am afraid they would be useless.

Ski, they where tough until the newer MK6 engine came out. The older MK5's and MK4's were some of the best. My older MK5 went over 200'000 miles and could still get 55 MPG when it meet its demise!

Capt. Jon said:

Would not be very dependable either. Since 2009 the MK6 engine has had dependability issues. Ask me how I know! Just google VW diesel high pressure fuel pump issues. I went through 3 before 40,000 miles.

Unless you could reprogram the ECU for Marine use i am afraid they would be useless.

Ski, they where tough until the newer MK6 engine came out. The older MK5's and MK4's were some of the best. My older MK5 went over 200'000 miles and could still get 55 MPG when it meet its demise!

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Welcome to REVO | Revo Technik

ECU mapping for just about anything that has one.

We have a 2011 VW Jetta Diesel. We easily get 47MPG HWY and 36 city and flies over 11,000ft mountain passes. Plenty of low end torque.

Perhaps 70 percent of Duramax, Cummins, and Powerstrokes have delete kits resulting in far more noxious gases in the atmosphere but I don't hear anyone complaining. Plenty of Detroits in trawlers if we want to bring up an engine that emits lots of noxious gases.

We told the dealer do not touch our TDI and they laughed. Seemed like they heard it before. I love my Isuzu c240 60hp in my trawler but personally I wouldn't be afraid to use a VW TDI if marinized parts were made available at a reasonable price.

I have yet to see any soot come out of the tailpipe of my TDI and smells clean at high altitude unlike the Isuzu. Owned and rebuilt several VW diesels. Pretty simple machines. Parts availability would be a plus for a marinized VW TDI.

psneeld said:

We need to start letting people know laws actually mean something. Making a mistake or pushing a limit is one thing...designing software to lie to the government is tantamount to treason when the vast majority of the money leaves the country.

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if that was the case at least one of the presidential candidates would be in prison.
Fine them a fixed amount equal to the profit on each car evolved and move on.
HOLLYWOOD

I don't recall seeing a marinized application for a 4 cyl. VW TDI, even in Europe, although there are some 4 cyl. versions listed by VW as in "Industrial" applications. Even the Greenline 33, 40 and 48' models use the 5 cylinder models in the naturally aspirated 75, and Turbo 120 and 220 HP versions. The 4 cyl VW diesels are marvelous engines. If those engine became available cheaply, there surely must be an opportunist out there willing to do something with them, whether marine, industrial, third world or perhaps developing some new, daring green technology to clean them up sufficiently for the use VW intended and still fit under the hood.

I have seen a fishing guide boat painted up with TDI clean Diesel power on the side. I saw it in on the road, in traffic. The transom had 2 out drives sticking out of it. I suspect it was in the 25 foot range.
We have been driving TDI's since 03, so it Kindda jumped out at me. No chance to talk to the guy, or even catch a number.

hollywood8118 said:

if that was the case at least one of the presidential candidates would be in prison.
Fine them a fixed amount equal to the profit on each car evolved and move on.
HOLLYWOOD

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I don't disagree.....we have to do things to deter things like this whether punishment or incentive...but something as just creating the law doesn't do crapola.

Ski in NC said:

I think the VW engine could do fine around 120hp in marine dress. Do the coolers and other marine hardware right and it should do ok.
And VW has a rep for making tough engines. Lots of VW stuff to gripe about, but their four banger diesels are tough.

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Yes they are tough. I've owned a few in the past. Even with our current 99 it overheated at about 60 K miles when the water pump impeller sheared off the shaft. I was doing 80 on the interstate (actually going to look at my current boat LOL) and the gage pegged.
I ran it home (albeit slowly) about 40 miles up hills etc. got the pump changed and it still runs awesome to date. And we do not baby it. 80 on the interstate is its comfort zone.

Remembering, many on TF lambast the Tier III offerings from the traditional suppliers. Where is the angst regarding marine application for a new era TDI's design akin to a laptop or smart phone?

for my old fashioned mechanical non CPU diesel design.

dhays said:

For the past couple years I have been following the development of the diesel Mazda6. Most of you likely have never heard of such a thing because while the car has been available in other markets, Mazda has not introduced it into the US.

Mazda wanted to have a diesel sedan that could achieve the required emissions standard without the use of an emission treatment liquid. Mazda's engineers did it. However, Mazda wasn't happy with the performance of the engine. Mazda seems to know their customer base pretty well and decided that Mazda drivers would be unhappy with the lack of "Zoom Zoom" from the diesel engine. They have kept delaying the US release until they could solve the problem.

Now my guess, (and this is only a guess) is that Mazda felt that if VW could achieve a peppy diesel engine that didn't require emission additives, the they should be able to do it as well. They just couldn't figure out how. Instead of introducing a car that would disappoint and instead of cheating, they delayed. My guess is that with the VW scandal, the US market for diesel cars will take such a hit that Mazda will give up on a diesel Mazda6 for the US market. Too bad.

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I know some AT&T managers who were beat up every month and some even fired for not being able to match MCI's numbers (spoiler alert, they were cooked)

Re: Wxx3 (post 23) - EPA ceased to be a competent, science based organization under and at the direction of Carol Browner during the Clinton administration. She directed the official disregard of standard data evaluation practices to gin up the case against "second hand smoke." Like smoking or not (I'm a non-smoker), there was no scientific basis for concern - unless you move the goalposts to conform to the desired outcome. Move them she did. The resulting purge of the real scientists and engineers (most of whom had been there since the inception of the agency) who held fast to real science resulted in the Sierra Club Chapter that you see today.

The original EPA crew accomplished tremendous advances in meaningful environmental areas: cleaning up the flaming Cayouga (sp?) River, the lower Mississippi, unrestricted strip mining (cost me a good job), actually defining and regulating hazardous waste, etc, etc. A real life demonstration of the 90/10 rule.

Now we have an agency that declares every puddle of water in the US a "navigable waterway" (over the objections of the Army Corps, for Pete's sake), demands phony mileage and emissions for rolling stock, and takes responsibility for nothing (Animas River). All the while nibbling away at that remaining 10% at enormous cost.

They are coming for your boat - the Pajama Boy in the corner office just hasn't thought of it yet. I mean - who really NEEDS a polluting rec boat?

Love my 1976 engines.

sb

Don't lose sight for a second that VWs unpunished fraudsters had the full backing of the German Environmental Ministry for years on the NOx issue. How? By not having the same standards as the US for diesel exhaust emissions. Further complicated by being decades behind the US regarding catalytic converters for gas engines.

The ultimate solution to the clean air debate is getting China, SE Asia and India on board for NOx, HC, particulates and SO3 derivatives. Clean air is not to be confused with the global warming CO2 issues stuff littering the landscape.

Politics aside (hint, hint), VW make some great engines. I would be happy to have a properly marinized TDI diesel in a suitable boat.

Good call, dimer2.

Auto and marine or generator HP ratings are very different.

The old rule of thumb , 3 cubic inches to make a long term HP should be observed , unless its a ski boat.

I doubt any of us would be wearing out a VW engine that was well maintained and well run.

I remember trucks from the 50's w flat head 6's and FH V8's in small to medium sized trucks going down the highway close to flat out and definitely flat out on hills and even medium grades. Some of them I actually knew went for years in such hard service. Almost all boats that weren't small OB boats were powered w such engines. Sure w poor maintance or abuse like shutting of after climbing a long grade at full throttle or missing shifts ect ect they died. But most led long lives and gave good service.

TF members frequently think one needs a heavy duty engine for light duty service. Not so IMO.

FF said:

Auto and marine or generator HP ratings are very different.

The old rule of thumb , 3 cubic inches to make a long term HP should be observed , unless its a ski boat.

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Fairly close. But don't confuse rating hp with operating point hp. I would have no problem with a VW rated at 120hp for 120cu in. But I would not run it above 40-50hp if I wanted it to live forever.

My Cummins makes 450hp out of 504cu in, but I run it at 200-220hp, which per Cummins it is in its sweet spot and should go "forever". 2.2 to 2.5 cu in/hp. Seems reasonable for a modern engine.

So Ski,
You're burning 10 - 11 gph?

"What is ironic is the stockholders was and is paying the executives of VW big bucks to prevent this type of thing from happening."

The stock holders pay big bucks to sell the largest number of cars at the highest markup.

The executives were following this mandate by providing cars with the best performance and fuel economy.

That they did not please the uninformed BuroRats , that create political "laws" out of their ear wax is no big deal.

Cancel the EPA , not VW.