VW Diesels for marine

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

Mule

Guru
Joined
May 27, 2014
Messages
1,935
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Florita Ann
Vessel Make
1982 Present
Something is going to happen concerning the VW Diesel cheating scandal. There is credible information talking about buy backs and wrecking out. The 09's up to 13-14 models do not have room under the hood for the mods necessary and with the pollution controls on full time as designed the performance is not acceptable to the owners. They are so dirty for on the road that even India will not allow m in for resale. Word on the street is that VW will have to buy back +- 300,000 cars and wreck em out.

I sure you see where I am going with this. I cannot but help but wonder about refit with marinization for marine use. These engines could likely become available VERY, VERY cheap. They are 4 cylinder @ around 130 hp. I have owned 4, currently have an '06. Makes me want to go hummmmmm.
 
Wouldn't be surprised to see them end up in some 3rd world country without emissions regulations.

Ted
 
Is VW going to be buying back cars?
Sometimes the easiest thing is to send disasters like this to the scrap yard, write this off as a business expense, which of course is a waste of a good car.

Entire 90% finished homes in neighborhood developments were bulldozed when housing market crashed. Rather than just hand over property the prefered way to deal with the problem was destruction.
 
They are great engines and there are marinization kits available.
I have a 99.5 Jetta TDI w/170+ K miles and just got 51+ mpg on a 4300 mile road trip.
 
So Mule .....
You would buy an engine because it's cheap and pump out 40 times the usual pollution as others just so you can save a few bucks?

I know what a green person is ...... you must be black.
 
So Mule .....
You would buy an engine because it's cheap and pump out 40 times the usual pollution as others just so you can save a few bucks?

I know what a green person is ...... you must be black.

Marine diesels have very lax controls of NOx, these vw car engines are MUCH cleaner than any marine engine sold now.
 
Given that a typical rec boat seems to operate 100-150 hrs/year, I doubt a few "off-spec" VW diesels in marine service will yank the ice flow from under a polar bear.

Wonder how the emissions compare to the venerable Lehman?
 
Marine diesels have very lax controls of NOx, these vw car engines are MUCH cleaner than any marine engine sold now.

Ski..sorry about missing you in Wilmington...

Plus...don't let facts spoil a good TF challenge.....:D
 
These are great engines, and putting them in boats would be a fine use. But I bet that part of the deal will be that VW has to destroy the engines. Sad.
 
We've got one of those VW Golf TDi's. Nice peppy little car with the 6-speed. We are not a bit pleased with the cheating or the likely fix.

On the other hand, you wouldn't wish to see what we saw when the 1984 Perkins 6.354s were started in 40deg weather!

We work to be 'green' however and wherever possible. However, I'd bet the environment would be better off over all if the offending VWs were driven to their natural demises. Pollution was caused during their construction and shipping, pollution will be caused in their demise however and whenever it comes. Premature pollution will be caused during the construction and shipping of the replacement cars.

It's also important to consider/understand (which I certainly do not!) what teeeny portion of the vast pollution humans cause is/would be contributed to by the cheating VWs. True even if you were to consider only diesel-powered transportation vehicles.
 
Since VW has a deal with Mercury to sell marinized TDI engines, I don't think that VW can sell the polluting auto engines directly for marine conversions. As noted above, the settlement may require scrapping them. But some will no doubt make it to the black market where anything goes.


David
 
Wouldn't be surprised to see them end up in some 3rd world country without emissions regulations.

Ted

I think that's the likely outcome.......VW is global and there are plenty of markets these can be re-sold in.

I have a diesel Beetle convertible and am watching this closely. Already got the first $1K bribe. Rumor has it there's another $5K on the horizon and a Buyback option.
 
We've got one of those VW Golf TDi's. Nice peppy little car with the 6-speed. We are not a bit pleased with the cheating or the likely fix.

On the other hand, you wouldn't wish to see what we saw when the 1984 Perkins 6.354s were started in 40deg weather!

We work to be 'green' however and wherever possible. However, I'd bet the environment would be better off over all if the offending VWs were driven to their natural demises. Pollution was caused during their construction and shipping, pollution will be caused in their demise however and whenever it comes. Premature pollution will be caused during the construction and shipping of the replacement cars.

It's also important to consider/understand (which I certainly do not!) what teeeny portion of the vast pollution humans cause is/would be contributed to by the cheating VWs. True even if you were to consider only diesel-powered transportation vehicles.

Well put. Of the various resolutions being kicked around, I fear the one settled on will result in a significant net increase in overall environmental damage.

I agree that the best option would be some financial punishment on VW to discourage future cheating, some compensation to the owners for their loss of value... and then let the cars run their natural lives.

By the time this whole thing is litigated to its completion, probably only 10% of the fleet will still be in service.

Typical American legal insanity mixed with classic German hard-headedness. Not going to sort itself quickly.

And WTF were those idiots thinking with this cheat????!!!! Others have tried and got busted in the prior decades. Nothing new to try and get caught.
 
By the time this whole thing is litigated to its completion, probably only 10% of the fleet will still be in service.

Typical American legal insanity mixed with classic German hard-headedness. Not going to sort itself quickly.

And WTF were those idiots thinking with this cheat????!!!! Others have tried and got busted in the prior decades. Nothing new to try and get caught.

This is/was typical corporate behavior for when an unreasonably demanding boss tells employees to accomplish something that can't be technically done. If you spent 20+ years working for a large organization, it would be surprising if you had not seen similar behaviors.
 
Last edited:
Marine diesels have very lax controls of NOx, these vw car engines are MUCH cleaner than any marine engine sold now.

Well if that's the case it would be stupid to go to all the trouble of taking them out of cars and putting them in boats. But there would be far fewer of them then. Besides the guys here don't like high rpm's.

Another thought is that the EPA dropped the ball checking these engines out so VW should be required to stop selling them but those already sold should be grandfathered w/o penalty .. IMO.

And I agree they are great engines. I reciently bought a Jetta and passed on the diesel option. Didn't even consider it actually. Seen many on the road w black butts and the gas Jetta I bought has an MPG rating of 36 hwy. Why would anyone need better MPG that that? But unlike our boats how long they last is or may be a factor.
 
Last edited:
This is/was typical corporate behavior for when an unreasonably demanding boss tells employees to accomplish something that can't be technically done. If you spent 20+ years working for a large organization, it would be surprising if you had not seen similar behaviors.

Unfortunately this is a fairly common behavior.
As an engineer I have been asked in the past to falsify data to back up a manager's "promise".
I refused.
 
Wasn't the VW cover up that the engines falsified "checked data" at emissions test agencies by software lying to the agency tester? Not that being checked was a "dropped" issue?

If so, grandfathering should be out of the question and all owners compensated...even if it means banning g VW from the US for a period. We need to start letting people know laws actually mean something. Making a mistake or pushing a limit is one thing...designing software to lie to the government is tantamount to treason when the vast majority of the money leaves the country.

Or are all engines tested right from the factory and installed.....the old fashion way?
 
Last edited:
Wasn't the VW cover up that the engines falsified "checked data" at emissions test agencies by software lying to the agency tester? Not that being checked was a "dropped" issue?


Yes, the Cheat parameters were triggered by the testing process. This was known as far back as 1999 when Bosch called out VW on the issue. Arrogance at the highest levels caused the problem. I think the estimate is $30 billion to fix this fiasco... VW can afford this, but it's a pretty hard slap on the wrist.

Ironically, $300 per car in additional hardware (Urea injection) could have avoided all this. It's almost impossible to retrofit at this point. EPA has yet to approve a "Fix".
 
Unfortunately this is a fairly common behavior.
As an engineer I have been asked in the past to falsify data to back up a manager's "promise".
I refused.

Yep, when I was an engr in industry, it happened a few times. I too refused and let the dust settle as it may. Part of the reason was that I knew I sucked at BS'ing. But had professional pride, too. Came out of all situations without ill effect on career.

I just can't understand what was going on inside those VW engr offices. Must be some big cultural differences between there and the US. Headscratcher...
 
I just can't understand what was going on inside those VW engr offices. Must be some big cultural differences between there and the US. Headscratcher...

Piech was a tyrant. If the worker bees didn't make this happen they were out of a job.
 
Piech was a tyrant. If the worker bees didn't make this happen they were out of a job.

In the US, I'd guess half the engr's would tell them to F-OFF, the job be damned.

Thus the cultural difference???? Germans have a history of "doing what they are told". To put it mildly...
 
PS, banning VW in this country would punish a lot more than VW. The dealers, mechanics, salesmen, the VW factory workers in this country had NOTHING to do with this fraud.

On another note, not too sure they can even go into another country, third world or otherwise. They will not even let them in India, which has very, very lax EPA rules..
 
Nothing is ever as it seems

Nothing is ever as it seems; especially when you think it's obvious.

From last week's op-ed in the WSJ:

From 27 April 2016 Wall Street Journal:

"OPINION

The Auto Emissions Crackup

One more example of what an analyst calls ‘sophisticated state failure.’

By Holman W. Jenkins, Jr. | 762 words

As expected, Volkswagen’s scandal over emissions cheating is spreading to other car makers. Porsche, Audi, Mercedes and GM’s Opel division in Germany are recalling cars for failing emissions tests.

In France, Renault and Peugeot have been raided by police. Japan’s Mitsubishi admitted on Tuesday that it had been fudging mileage data for 25 years, putting the company’s survival in doubt.

In an honest world the scandal would now spread to the agencies and politicians that conspire to set implausible rules and then help create ways around them for industries that employ millions of their voters and whose products are of vital daily purpose to virtually everyone in their societies.

The crackup here is bigger than the crackup of a single regulatory initiative. The problem only begins with agencies maniacally hoeing their row because it’s theirs, beyond reason, with science reduced to their useful idiot.

Take the Environmental Protection Agency standard that Volkswagen, in its still-unexplained obsession with reconquering the U.S. market with diesel cars, is guilty of flouting.

EPA’s latest target of 0.07 grams of nitrogen oxide per mile represents a 90% reduction from NOx output of the average car on the road today.

It represents a 97% reduction compared to the 100 million pickup trucks on the road. The law of diminishing returns, if agencies behaved rationally, would have caused EPA to declare victory on nitrogen oxide and turn to other matters.

But acting rationally is not an agency interest. The Clean Air Act gave EPA the atmosphere as its regulatory bailiwick, and it won’t let go.

And since racking up of continued costs for small gains must be justified somehow, an unsupported scientific orthodoxy is rolled out—the theory, which permeates federal regulatory endeavors, that anything toxic in large amounts is toxic in small amounts.

Even the chair of the EPA’s Clean Air Scientific Advisory Committee testified in 1997: “I do not believe we are sufficiently well-informed to make the judgment that regulating [fine particulates] to near background levels is an appropriate national commitment.”

The agency since then, of course, has made an even bolder leap to claim that the Clean Air Act entitles it to regulate virtually all activities in the atmosphere in the name of climate change, though 85% of the relevant activities take place outside the U.S. beyond EPA’s reach.

It might seem easy to blame the politicians who superintend this machine, but politicians come and go, while the machine endures.

The Bush administration started out criticizing fuel-mileage standards as perverse and ineffective, yet when the Iraq war went bad, President Bush seized on tighter rules to suggest he was making war on America’s “oil addiction.”

The fuel-economy regime was created in 1975 when gasoline price controls were still extant. If politicians wouldn’t let price ration usage, they needed another way to temper demand—that was the idea behind fuel-economy mandates.

Those price controls are long gone but the mileage mandates survive because so many interests have sprung into being around them, though the cited purpose has become “emissions,”not “energy security.”

In setting his own mileage goals, President Obama selected 54.5 miles-per-gallon because the White House wanted an impressive “headline number.”

The actual target is closer to 40 mpg when various allowances, gimmes, favors to U.S. auto makers at the expense of their foreign counterparts, subsidies to pet technologies, etc., are counted.

And of course, “your mileage may vary,”because the EPA and auto makers silently agreed on a testing procedure that has nothing to do with real-world driving.

The ne plus ultra is Tesla, a company massively propped up by indirect and direct official handouts. Electricity is the most important source of global greenhouse emissions, so the U.S. pays Tesla to make a car that runs on electricity.

Multiply the emissions scandal by many thousands and you have the crackup of the Western model of governance.

Their retirement systems were premised on workforces growing faster than retired populations, yet now are helpless to adjust when the opposite is true. Their tax and welfare systems suppress work, entrepreneurship and eventually childbearing, and now need to be kept ambulatory by direct lending from their central banks.

One thing that can’t be changed, though, is the programs themselves no matter how maladaptive they prove. Jan Techau, of Carnegie Europe, coined the phrase “sophisticated state failure”for the impasse afflicting the advanced industrial nations.

If you think the U.S. is somehow immune to rigid elites and dysfunctional priorities, somehow specially blessed, think again. If you suppose Donald Trump is the solution, an even ruder awakening may be coming.■

 
WX- Profound. Thanks for posting.
 
For the past couple years I have been following the development of the diesel Mazda6. Most of you likely have never heard of such a thing because while the car has been available in other markets, Mazda has not introduced it into the US.

Mazda wanted to have a diesel sedan that could achieve the required emissions standard without the use of an emission treatment liquid. Mazda's engineers did it. However, Mazda wasn't happy with the performance of the engine. Mazda seems to know their customer base pretty well and decided that Mazda drivers would be unhappy with the lack of "Zoom Zoom" from the diesel engine. They have kept delaying the US release until they could solve the problem.

Now my guess, (and this is only a guess) is that Mazda felt that if VW could achieve a peppy diesel engine that didn't require emission additives, the they should be able to do it as well. They just couldn't figure out how. Instead of introducing a car that would disappoint and instead of cheating, they delayed. My guess is that with the VW scandal, the US market for diesel cars will take such a hit that Mazda will give up on a diesel Mazda6 for the US market. Too bad.
 
Maybe not...there are a lot of smart people I this country and follow worldwide tech.

Even just a few well known people can influence millions...as we fortunately and unfortunately see all too often.

Heck, some think all but a few on TF aren't too bright...I disagree.... I think it is the other way around.

Hopefully VWs greed will rank there with Wall Steets and other coporate greed and somehow we will get past it.
 
The likely new President brags about not driving and really hating cars. She will have us all in Tesla pickups making 100 miles per day when hauling that boat trailer.

We are in for a continued bumpy ride on governing emissions and fuel standards. Best advice, just keep those old cars going like we live in Havana.
 
..........I agree that the best option would be some financial punishment on VW to discourage future cheating, some compensation to the owners for their loss of value... ...........

Who at VW will be paying the fines? President? CEO? Engineers?

Nope. Customers will pay the fine. The price will go up or the quality will go down.
 
............ We need to start letting people know laws actually mean something. ...........

Well, I agree with you on that, but in my area, they don't even try to enforce jaywalking laws or laws against riding a bicycle on the sidewalk or the wrong side of the road. Stop signs? You're lucky if they even slow down. Red lights? Forget about it.

Take care of the little things and the bigger ones will fall in line.

Want to punish VW - Put the people who approved the design in jail. Lock them up.
 
Back
Top Bottom