New Member- MT 49 Survey a disaster. Any advice

"And once again this points to the value of carefully selecting a buyer's broker and not just going to seller's brokers."


I think some folks would be surprised to know hat some buyers brokers do. It is hard to know which ones present the best interests of the buyer since they will never know what they do not hear.
Perhaps on higher priced boats where the % and $$ are more attractive, maybe.

smitty477 said:

"And once again this points to the value of carefully selecting a buyer's broker and not just going to seller's brokers."


I think some folks would be surprised to know hat some buyers brokers do. It is hard to know which ones present the best interests of the buyer since they will never know what they do not hear.
Perhaps on higher priced boats where the % and $$ are more attractive, maybe.

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I never suggested selecting at random or without references and a person to person interview. It's like houses where some will only work for the high commission sales. They may sell one boat a year but make good money doing it. Others prefer the trawler market and others smaller boats where the income per sale isn't as high, but the number of sales is higher. Now they will commit to providing you good representation but they also need your commitment to work through them, to allow them to really help you. They also have a history and know which selling brokers will be honest with them and which not to trust. And definitely choose one who specializes in the type boat you're after. We've got a broker here who has literally written the book on Bayliner and Meridian and knows pilothouse cruisers like no other. I know a South Florida broker who knows all there is to know about every type trawler including the less often talked about ones, who knows the principals of many of the builders and has visited many manufacturing facilities. If I was looking for a Grand Banks in the PNW I absolutely know the broker I'd turn to. I doubt there are many GB's around there that he isn't knowledgeable about.

Ultimately a buyer's broker may well help, if carefully chosen, and costs one nothing.

BandB; said:

We've got a broker here who has literally written the book on Bayliner and Meridian and knows pilothouse cruisers like no other.

I know a South Florida broker who knows all there is to know about every type trawler including the less often talked about ones.

If I was looking for a Grand Banks in the PNW I absolutely know the broker I'd turn to. I doubt there are many GB's around there that he isn't knowledgeable about.

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So why not invite them to join us?

Hawgwash said:

So why not invite them to join us?

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Who said they weren't here, probably lurking. The 1st I mentioned is definitely here and active. The 2nd I think may occasionally read, I don't know. She's not active on but one forum and not very active on it. Mainly writes reviews for it. The 3rd I believe might be a lurker here but not 100% sure. May have even posted

Since I have sold 3 boats within the last few years I have come into contact with a number of buyers brokers. As I was the seller I did not pick them they ended up finding my boat and eventually speaking to me in one way or another. I can say that there has been a good many circumstances where some of them have put together potential offers that really lack what I could consider a minimum effort or time. In some cases they had not seen the boat, in others they did not want to list a list to convey, in some they did not want to reasonably detail the subject to's , did not present counteroffers, and the list goes on. I have also spoken to a couple of folks whom they represented and now I know that they were also not fully communicating to them either - all after the fact. So the problem remains that there is no real place where a potential buyer can go and see reasonably fair assessments of the persons they will potentially utilize - not that I am aware of. Brokers are not necessarily boat experts but some are sale experts.

smitty477 said:

Since I have sold 3 boats within the last few years I have come into contact with a number of buyers brokers. As I was the seller I did not pick them they ended up finding my boat and eventually speaking to me in one way or another. I can say that there has been a good many circumstances where some of them have put together potential offers that really lack what I could consider a minimum effort or time. In some cases they had not seen the boat, in others they did not want to list a list to convey, in some they did not want to reasonably detail the subject to's , did not present counteroffers, and the list goes on. I have also spoken to a couple of folks whom they represented and now I know that they were also not fully communicating to them either - all after the fact. So the problem remains that there is no real place where a potential buyer can go and see reasonably fair assessments of the persons they will potentially utilize - not that I am aware of. Brokers are not necessarily boat experts but some are sale experts.

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Go speak to them face to face, interview them with hard questions, give them a chance to lie to you on something you'll know when they do. Get references. Then after selection, manage them. Make them communicate with you. You're the boss. Act like one.

BandB said:

And once again this points to the value of carefully selecting a buyer's broker and not just going to seller's brokers.

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Better yet, get informed and look these vessels over with a careful eye.

sunchaser said:

Better yet, get informed and look these vessels over with a careful eye.

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I have to agree – if you don't know enough to look over a boat, I think you might also have a hard time vetting a broker. That's why I suggested a few pages back to join a yacht club and find a trusted resource through there.


Keith

I am / was the "next guy"

Hello:
Well, I was the "next guy". I saw the this boat listed a few months back , contacted the broker and heard it was under a contract. I was disappointed because I loved the style as Shaun did.
Two weeks ago I contacted the broker and asked for an update. He said the deal (Shaun's) had fallen apart at the survey because of the results siting electrical and engine oil leak issues among other items.
He said since the survey, the owner had repaired all of the items and I could come view the boat.
His advice was this is not a boat that someone should buy to do the loop and then turn around and sell it as these issues will still exist.
He said the boat is NOT A PROJECT boat but needs someone who is skilled in all of the necessary trade to bring up to par.

I am an owner of my fifth boat which is a 41' President Trawler so I am very familiar with older Taiwanese workmanship and there issues.

After I viewed the boat I don't think it is in too bad of shape for where it is priced today. Sure, some of the items are "residential", like the fridge, the wall unit on the starboard side in the galley is oak, the swim platform is plastic, the salon windows and then my favorite - the propane locker is a rubber maid container !!!!!

Yes, the previous owner was a DIY'r and did not work in any of the construction, engineering or building trades to gain knowledge of NEC or ABYC standards.
The broker told me that the previous owner had changed out the fuel hoses prior to the sea trial and this is why the engines stalled and there was fuel / oil in the engine room. Again, the DIY'er working on fuel lines and not understanding that they need to be bled gives me the willy's.

I am also not a big fan of Brokers that "fly in" for a viewing. He was not able to power up anything including lights and was unable to return the following day (Sunday) for a follow up visit.
We drove our car from Ct, an 8 hr drive to see this boat and the broker was not available on Sunday. He needed to catch a flight south !!!

All together a very sad ending.

TJM said:

Hello:
Well, I was the "next guy".
His advice was this is not a boat that someone should buy to do the loop and then turn around and sell it as these issues will still exist.
He said the boat is NOT A PROJECT boat but needs someone who is skilled in all of the necessary trade to bring up to par.

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So, it's not a project, one should just expect constant problems with every possible part of the boat?

Another translation....The PO has royally screwed up everything he touched and it will take you years to correct it all.

TJM said:

We drove our car from Ct, an 8 hr drive to see this boat and the broker was not available on Sunday. .

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Boat hunting is all about planes trains and automobiles with a ferry ride or two thrown in. Eight hours doesn't seem so bad if you had scheduled about 5 other boats to look at on the same visit. Sounds like the broker was inconvenienced too.

Looking at old boats is a crap shoot. It seems several threads and posts of late on TF regarding a boat not living up to the internet hype. Epidemic maybe brought about by digital clean up of an old boat?

Hi TJM

Please feel free to PM if you want to discuss this on a more personal basis.
I have been "warned" by the owner of the company who called me about my posts (even though I have never mentioned who they are at all and everything I have posted is fact) and stated I would be "monitored" and would consider discussing it with his attorneys if I persisted. I guess the 1st amendment doesn't apply on this forum?

I was told by the broker that no one else had inquired about the boat and I was the only prospect, I would like to think that was true.

When I attended the sea trial and mechanical survey, I had a friend of mine who is a retired commercial Captain, a USCG reservist and trainer come with me. He also travels the state giving speeches to various groups about boat electrical systems and wiring.

I also had Peter, the surveyor, who has been highly recommended by others on this forum return for the sea trial and to inspect the "repairs" done.

There were about 10 items found wrong with the port engine before it was fired up. There were multiple fuel leaks that had nothing to do with him changing the lines, fuel was dripping from 3 injectors. there where about 4 oil leaks that were actively dripping from the gaskets, not the ones that stop when the engines heat up.
The starboard was also just as bad. The one motor mount had been driven down and the motors was not even touching the mount. This happened to be the shaft that just had the cutlass bearing replaced and so definitely not aligned after the replacement.

When the engines died, we went to have a cup off coffee and both surveyors agreed that these motors were done for and leaving the dock for a sea trial was a waste of everyone's time and the fact that were the only boat in the water, if the engines died, we would be in serious trouble. Peter, the surveyor, had also discovered 3 hull leaks and the electrical was still sub par after repair. Both surveyors recommended that the boat have engines overhauled/ replaced and the boat rewired. The starboard engines would have to be lifted to fix the engine mounts Not my words, but theirs. I was given a rough estimate of 50k to replace the engines and about 20k for a rewire and that is before addressing the other issues. My friend agreed with their findings.

I think I would call this a project boat. In contrast there was a 50ft Trojan in the same harbor, with a clean survey that I still have. The owners had rewired the boat, updated the galley and salon etc and it was listed for 70K. That boat is a worth 70K, not the one that needs 80k worth of work.

There was not one insurance company that would entertain coverage unless I could show substantial work had been done to improve the issues in the survey. The "repairs" done would never had cut it. Sorry you had to drive there for nothing, it is such a sad to sight to see this awesome looking boat deteriorating. At the right price and for someone local, I am sure this boat could be an awesome vessel again.

Shaunc said:

I have been "warned" by the owner of the company who called me about my posts (even though I have never mentioned who they are at all and everything I have posted is fact) and stated I would be "monitored" and would consider discussing it with his attorneys if I persisted. I guess the 1st amendment doesn't apply on this forum?

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That tells me all I need to know about the company, that their way of defending their name and honor is to threaten lawsuits. Although I can't say in this case, since I have no idea who the company is, generally when I see that response it means they use attorneys quite a bit and have a good bit of litigation. Either that or the company owner is just a blowhard.

The only real threat is that they're use to spending money on lawyers and you'd have to in order to defend it. They use that rather than a threat of them having been harmed or wronged. I wonder what suit he threatened if any specific, libel or slander?

I've done a lot of business over the years, dealt with a lot of individual and companies. I've never filed a frivolous suit or threatened one such as he is.

In today's world too, there's a new reality. If you're in business, you're going to have good and bad reviews and they're going to be all over the internet and since they're just opinions, you can do nothing about it. You learn to live with it, because if you conduct your business the right way, the good will far outnumber the bad and those reading know how to discern the real situation. The wise company then responds by apologizing for the issues and asking the person to please contact them. The stupid ones jump on to argue and sling mud and threaten litigation. I choose not to deal with companies with a history of much litigation.

The threat bothers me more than the actions themselves.

"Please feel free to PM if you want to discuss this on a more personal basis.
I have been "warned" by the owner of the company who called me about my posts (even though I have never mentioned who they are at all and everything I have posted is fact) and stated I would be "monitored" and would consider discussing it with his attorneys if I persisted. I guess the 1st amendment doesn't apply on this forum?"




Hello Shaun - that is ridiculous and shows what is going on out there now.
Here are the facts as best I can locate them so this is more easily looked up and understood:


1979 Marine Trader 49' for sale
Listed by Curtis Stokes
Listing agent Michael Martin
Current boat name "Perfect Balance"
Past boat name "Skin Walker"


If anyone has more accurate and factual information please correct me for future reference.


Thanks to Shaun and Tom for their efforts to identify potential problems.