Propane tank fuel lock?

Have this new to me boat, the 34 CHB of course. In going thru various systems today, had a look at the propane tank and the gauge showed zero pressure. Went and had the tank filled but it was obvious it was near full already. Tank had this weird fitting on top between the regulator and the fill connection. I took that fitting off and put it back together without it, and had 100 psi instantly. So this fitting is a Marvel Schebler Century fuel lock- off I guess, saw a couple on ebay. I have never seen such a gizmo on a propane tank before and it works without it, so do I need this goofy thing on my tank??

Sounds like you are describing a 12volt fuel shut-off solenoid and yes you need it. I am reluctant to say more because playing with propane on a boat is extremely dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. Get an experienced gas tech to get your system and it's components in the proper order.

Thanks boatpoker, I did look it up on line and found the company but it sounds like they mostly make carburetors. One I found on Fleabay described it as a fuel lock. It is wired so perhaps you are right. It was not allowing gas thru to the regulator so perhaps as you say it was mounted wrong.

It's very important that you have a properly functioning gas shutoff solenoid. It's also very important that you have a gas sniffer and solenoid controller. It sounds like you removed the former and don't have the latter. This is a recipe for disaster. To be safe, you need somebody who knows boat gas systems to set this up properly.

Ken

When I left the boat all gas was off. I will have it looked at.

I'm going to jump in here because I know nothing and Ken and Boatpoker know a lot. Sometimes an explanation from someone who doesn't know anything can be easier...

A boat's propane system should not only have a shut off valve one the tank, but it should also have a solenoid shut off. In every boat I have seen and owned, the solenoid is down stream of the pressure gauge. Yours seems to have the pressure gauge beyond the solenoid. Boatpoker would know if that matters, I don't.

The solenoid provides an additional layer of protection if the valve on the tank doesn't close all the way. The electric solenoid is activated from the galley area before the stove is used, and then is deactivated after you are done using the stove. I also make it a habit to close the valve on the tank as well, but most probably don't.

There should also be a propane detector (sniffer) in the galley area that is connected to the solenoid. If it should detect gas, it closes the solenoid, shutting off the gas supply and sounds an alarm. My 2005 era boat did not have this, my 2010 boat does.

That at least is my understanding of how the systems should work. I am sure that others will correct my errors, but it sounded as if the propane system was new to you so I wanted to provide as simple an explanation as possible to make sure that you got the basics.

Like most of the stuff on this boat things are labeled indifferently. I guess I will just plead ignorance as having been around a number of propane tanks in trailers and campers, I don't recall any of them having solenoid shut offs. Not saying that's OK, just is. While trying to get gas to register on the gauge today, and not recognizing this Marvel Schebler gizmo, as an experiment I took it off and got pressure. So guessing it acts as a solenoid even though its not called one, and the switch in the boat was on or the gizmo is installed wrong or gunnybag, it appears I need to get it all looked at and all parts identified and working correctly. Thanks for the replies gents.

One of the differences with a boat vs a trailer or camper, is that leaking propane gets contained in the bilge creating a huge hazard. In a trailer, leaking propane finds it way to the ground outside the trailer where it disperses.

FWIW, those solenoids do go bad on occasion. I had to replace one on my last boat.

Greetings,
Mr. 78. Every propane tank I've ever seen has a TW (weight of empty tank) stamped on it. To determine fill state of the tank, simply weigh it and subtract the TW. A completely full tank should weigh somewhere in the neighborhood of TW+17lbs for a 20 lb. tank.

Yup, it seems you've figured out you've got a fuel solenoid. Were the wires connected up to something? Switch? Leak sensor? Without a leak sensing system, IMO, the solenoid is NOT needed. What's the point? The tank should be in a proper propane locker so any leaks will not collect in the bilge. If that unfamiliar with propane, yes, get a tech.

78puget-trawler said:

Thanks boatpoker, I did look it up on line and found the company but it sounds like they mostly make carburetors. One I found on Fleabay described it as a fuel lock. It is wired so perhaps you are right. It was not allowing gas thru to the regulator so perhaps as you say it was mounted wrong.

Click to expand...

Or the switch was off.

Propane is reasonably safe if installed correctly and handled correctly.

Without being there and seeing your setup, I would guess that you removed the solenoid that allows you to turn off the propane when not actually using it. There should be a switch in the galley that you turn on when you want to use the stove and turn off when not using the stove. This switch controls the shut off solenoid in the propane locker.

Find the switch. Now reinstall the solenoid exactly as it was. Turn on the switch in the galley and you should have propane to the stove.

If you can't figure it out, get an experienced pro to fix it for you. Don't remove safety devices.

Look on your stove. My switch for the solenoid was mounted to the face near the gas knobs. It also had a lamp to show when it was switched on.

If you don't know which way the solenoid goes (most are not directional but not all) and if you don't know which connections require pipe dope and which should not have pipe dope
....... don't play with this stuff. if you don't know the order in which the solenoid, regulator and pressure gauge are fitted, don't play with it. I am a propane fan but it should not be played with if you don't know.

RT Firefly said:

...Without a leak sensing system, IMO, the solenoid is NOT needed. What's the point? The tank should be in a proper propane locker so any leaks will not collect in the bilge. If that unfamiliar with propane, yes, get a tech.

Click to expand...

It's needed because without one the gas lines are pressurized all the way to the stove. If there's some kind of leak in the stove your bilge will fill with propane. The solenoid allows you to turn on and off the gas from the galley. I never leave it on except when I'm actually cooking.

Richard

You should always turn off the propane solenoid when you are not using propane because the solenoid is cooled by the flowing gas. The solenoid itself is oil-filled for cooling but forgetting to shut off can cause the unit to overheat and fail, they are expensive and a nuisance to replace. I installed a light over the stove as a telltale to remind me.

Xsbank said:

You should always turn off the propane solenoid when you are not using propane because the solenoid is cooled by the flowing gas. The solenoid itself is oil-filled for cooling but forgetting to shut off can cause the unit to overheat and fail, they are expensive and a nuisance to replace. I installed a light over the stove as a telltale to remind me.

Click to expand...

I never knew that, thanks for the information. I don't recall, but it is certainly possible that I had left mine on one time and that might have sped up its demise. Replacing it wasn't too much trouble on my last boat as it was relatively easy to access. In my new boat, it has a much better propane locker, but the solenoid would be more of a pain access.

The tank is up in the flybridge like most CHB boats I imagine. It is vented outside as well. I will get it looked at, thanks again for the replies.

Greetings,
Mr. B. Thanks. I hadn't thought about THAT point. I guess we never ran with the tank valve open (ONLY opened for cooking then closed) and as a result I'd never considered that.

Britannia said:

It's needed because without one the gas lines are pressurized all the way to the stove. If there's some kind of leak in the stove your bilge will fill with propane. The solenoid allows you to turn on and off the gas from the galley. I never leave it on except when I'm actually cooking.

Richard

Click to expand...

Exactly.

What everyone above said.

Think of it this way, at home on my BBQ, I would turn the gas on on the bottle, then turn the burners on. When done, burners off, and bottle closed also.

Now, on a boat, the bottles are stored OUTSIDE, ussually on the fly bridge. So it's convenient to have the solenoid to give you that SECOND shutoff. The first being whatever apliance, stove or BBQ, that is using propane.

i also installed a lite rocker switch, so that I always can see when propane is ON. As others have said, it should always be off when not in use.

My stove, a Princess, also has a internal solenoid that only allows the gas to flow when the thermistor is hot. Thus if a gust of wind would blow the burner out, the stove will turn off the gas sooner or later.

My BBQ is outside, so less of safety issue, but more of a problem with me forgetting to turn it off, thus the lite switch.

Wxx3 said:

............. Now, on a boat, the bottles are stored OUTSIDE, ussually on the fly bridge. ............

Click to expand...

They should be in a propane locker. The propane locker is sealed, the lid is on the top and it has a vent through to the outside of the boat near the waterline. The vent hose goes down without any loops. There should be a pressure gauge and solenoid.

Suggest you take a look at Safe Boat Propane Installations

How do folks store their outdoor cooker propane? We just bought a table-top Cuisinart CGG-306, and will need to find a place for the tank. There is a bulwark around the back porch, several scuppers, but also the gutter and drains for the lazarette hatch. I'd like to mount the cooker to the outside of the rail so that it's both out of the way and excess fats that are not caught in the drip pan go over the side. The thing is made for a normal 20lb tank. We used to have a Magma on the pushpit of the sailboat which used only a 2lb bottle; we kept the 'next' bottles in a canvas bag on deck.

As is apparently in common with other Taiwanese-builds, the galley cooker's tank is in the flybridge enclosure, it did not have, but will receive a proper mounting, solenoid, etc.

Greetings,
Mr. DH. Convert the cooker to small bottles and refill them.
Propane Bottle Refill Kit

DHeckrotte said:

How do folks store their outdoor cooker propane? We just bought a table-top Cuisinart CGG-306, and will need to find a place for the tank. There is a bulwark around the back porch, several scuppers, but also the gutter and drains for the lazarette hatch. I'd like to mount the cooker to the outside of the rail so that it's both out of the way and excess fats that are not caught in the drip pan go over the side. The thing is made for a normal 20lb tank. We used to have a Magma on the pushpit of the sailboat which used only a 2lb bottle; we kept the 'next' bottles in a canvas bag on deck.

As is apparently in common with other Taiwanese-builds, the galley cooker's tank is in the flybridge enclosure, it did not have, but will receive a proper mounting, solenoid, etc.

Click to expand...

Run another properly protected line from your already properly installed propane locker.

Good thought, RT; I had considered changing the hose fitting on the Cuisinart to accept bottles. Our outdoor cooker gas consumption has been 3-4 2lb bottles per year so it's not been a onerous problem.

Good thought, BP; I had considered that, too. Though it sounds like a lot of fuss-n-feathers to do the job elegantly. Running/fishing tubing and a second switch leg for the solenoid from flybridge to back porch, tee and valve at the tank, making a neat little watertight, but vented, enclosure for the connection and new switch.

RT, an adapter for connecting between the fitting suiting a 20lb tank and a 1 or 2 lb bottle are readily available. $10-20. Adapters for refilling 1 or 2lb bottles from a 20lb tank are also readily available. Hoses with end fittings suitable for running equipment made for either 20lb tanks or 1 or 2 lb bottles from either fuel source are readily available as well. The usual 20 lb male tank fitting is called 'POL'. The male bottle fitting is called a 'QCC1'. No thinking required, just dough. Also available are adapters for connecting multiple tanks simultaneously. Who knew? And who would want more than exactly the needed choice on a boat?

I don't think it's legal to refill the small "throwaway" propane canisters but I'm sure that's not stopping some folks from doing it.

Just illegal to transport them on the road....not sure if on a boat it would be considered transport....at least that was the warning on my refill adapter.

There used to be many you tube videos on how to do it.

Still plenty of adapters out there for sale...even from Walmart.....liability can't be too huge.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Enerco-Mr-Heater-F276172-Propane-Tank-Refill-Adapter/21799898

When outfitting boats we always use a quality switch (Cole Hersy) that also turns on a red light at eye level.

For folks cruising we add a mechanical 1 or 2 hour timer that must also be wound.

A rum & coke or 5 makes it EZ to forget to turn off the switch,

Both must operate to have a gas flow.

A propane bilge sniffer is also a great idea, many will secure the gas as well as sound a warning.

FF said:

When outfitting boats we always use a quality switch (Cole Hersy) that also turns on a red light at eye level.

For folks cruising we add a mechanical 1 or 2 hour timer that must also be wound.

Click to expand...

That is a great idea. In my boat the switch is lit and is incorporated into the LPG sniffer. When it is power up from the DC panel, you can't turn on the solenoid until after the sniffer has operated for a very short time. During this time the power light flashes. When it is solid green, you can then turn on the solenoid and get another light. This control is at eye level next to the stove/oven. I do like the idea of a mechanical timer though.

I tested my propane system last weekend and was not happy. I get no pressure drop from the tank to the solenoid after 3-5 minutes of the tank being closed. However, I do get a pressure drop downstream from the solenoid with the tank closed after 3-5 minutes. This means I have a small leak in the system somewhere, likely inside the boat. It will be a challenge to track down. I am hoping that it is at a fitting on the stove so is readily accessible.