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dhays said:
Many? I don't think so. A few? Sure. They are quickly educated on the Cruisers & Sailing Forum if they don't.
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Actually, they tried to "educate" me that because they were under sail, the ships had to alter course to avoid them.

Personally, I believe size wins, especially a freighter or tanker vs. a small recreational trawler, but they wouldn't leave it alone. They claimed that if I altered course to avoid them, I was causing a dangerous situation.

Seriously.
 
WesK said:
Actually, they tried to "educate" me that because they were under sail, the ships had to alter course to avoid them.

Personally, I believe size wins, especially a freighter or tanker vs. a small recreational trawler, but they wouldn't leave it alone. They claimed that if I altered course to avoid them, I was causing a dangerous situation.

Seriously.
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Yep, in come cases you are....

Places like major shipping channels, out guessing the big boys puts them in harms way, better to contact than to just randomly change course.

The guys in the English Channel know for sure...there it is like being a driver in Manhatten during lunch hour...no matter what you do you are turning into someone, something.

I even saw it in narrow ICW channels with assistance towing...at the last minute someone would change course after I already did...bad news.

The rules specify sizes in some situations on purpose....don't out guess the rules...communicate before breaking them....or don't be in a place/position where they matter...that's the easiest.
 
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WesK said:
Actually, they tried to "educate" me that because they were under sail, the ships had to alter course to avoid them.

Personally, I believe size wins, especially a freighter or tanker vs. a small recreational trawler, but they wouldn't leave it alone. They claimed that if I altered course to avoid them, I was causing a dangerous situation.

Seriously.
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Wow. That is really disappointing. I am surprised since most of the time they tend to be much better informed.

I agree, size does matter. Not to mention the small issue of the rules for a give way vessel.
 
Most all commercial vessels in the U.S. either already will have it or will very soon. We have a recieve only unit and find it quite useful.
 
WesK said:
Actually, they tried to "educate" me that because they were under sail, the ships had to alter course to avoid them.

Personally, I believe size wins, especially a freighter or tanker vs. a small recreational trawler, but they wouldn't leave it alone. They claimed that if I altered course to avoid them, I was causing a dangerous situation.

Seriously.
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Ok, I'll bite.

First off - from a practical standpoint I will alter course to avoid a large vessel well in advance of needing to worry about collision avoidance. I did that when I had a sailboat too.

That having been said - where in COLREGS is there anything to support the position that a small vessel has to get out of the way of a large one in the open ocean?

In restricted channels and traffic lanes the COLREGS Rule 9 (b) and Rule 10 (j) apply. However, in open ocean Rule 18 (a)(iv) applies.

Let me repeat that I do get out of the way of large vessels well in advance of a situation where either vessel needs to worry about COLREGS. I'm just curious where people believe that it's the large vessels right to maintain course and speed?

Richard
 
Britannia said:
O
In restricted channels and traffic lanes the COLREGS Rule 9 (b) and Rule 10 (j) apply. However, in open ocean Rule 18 (a)(iv) applies.
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I never venture out into the open ocean and therefore I only encounter commercial vessels in traffic separation zones. Therefore to the extent that it is possible, it is up to me to avoid any conflict with them since they are always where they should be doing what they should be doing.
 
dhays said:
I never venture out into the open ocean and therefore I only encounter commercial vessels in traffic separation zones. Therefore to the extent that it is possible, it is up to me to avoid any conflict with them since they are always where they should be doing what they should be doing.
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100% agree. In and around the SF Bay where I'm located it's always going to be Rules 8 and 10 that apply. I can't see anyone arguing otherwise. I'm just wondering if these "misguided" sailors were discussing the general case where Rule 18 applies (e.g. in the ocean).

Richard
 
Britannia said:
Ok, I'll bite.

First off - from a practical standpoint I will alter course to avoid a large vessel well in advance of needing to worry about collision avoidance. I did that when I had a sailboat too.

That having been said - where in COLREGS is there anything to support the position that a small vessel has to get out of the way of a large one in the open ocean?

In restricted channels and traffic lanes the COLREGS Rule 9 (b) and Rule 10 (j) apply. However, in open ocean Rule 18 (a)(iv) applies.

Let me repeat that I do get out of the way of large vessels well in advance of a situation where either vessel needs to worry about COLREGS. I'm just curious where people believe that it's the large vessels right to maintain course and speed?

Richard
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:thumb::thumb::thumb:
 
I've seen people on bicycles who thought they had the right of way over all other vehicles. Some will ignore traffic lights and rules of the road. Yes, some or many sailboaters act as if they think they always have the right of way. I've also heard of small boat owners who thought they did my merit of size. Yes, I've even heard of a trawler owner declaring he did because he was much slower. All have probably found situations in which they'd have the right of way, but then they try to apply that to all circumstances.
 
"Here lies the body of Michael O'Day.
He died defending his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along,
But just as dead as if he'd been wrong."
 
dwhatty said:
"Here lies the body of Michael O'Day.
He died defending his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along,
But just as dead as if he'd been wrong."
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COLREGS Rule 8 (f)(iii) :thumb:
 
BandB said:
I've seen people on bicycles who thought they had the right of way over all other vehicles. Some will ignore traffic lights and rules of the road. Yes, some or many sailboaters act as if they think they always have the right of way. I've also heard of small boat owners who thought they did my merit of size. Yes, I've even heard of a trawler owner declaring he did because he was much slower. All have probably found situations in which they'd have the right of way, but then they try to apply that to all circumstances.
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There is no "right of way" in the COLREGS. Well, I didn't check, but I'm pretty sure that there isn't...
 
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Baker "I was under that impression. He called his app his "AIS receiver". That is not a very good way of looking at it. So I asked the question to clarify. So I assume it is the same thing as Marine traffic...."

Similar, but not the same. MT is not real time. Boatbeacon is real time where I boat.

For example, on Sunday, in the Traffic Separation Lanes, I watched (visually) as a 28 knot (according to Boatbeacon) vessel approached a freighter, to put a Pilot on board. As I watched this happen, Boatbeacon showed the Pilot vessel slow to the speed of the freighter, as I watched them come together, offload the pilot and leave, Boatbeacon showed the speed and position of the Pilot vessel corresponding exactly to what I was watching. The only quibble I have with its accuracy, is the symbols on the screen were the same size for the pilot vessel and the freighter, though their real sizes were vastly different.
I don't think the information received by a receive only AIS could be any more accurate.
 
koliver said:
Baker "I was under that impression. He called his app his "AIS receiver". That is not a very good way of looking at it. So I asked the question to clarify. So I assume it is the same thing as Marine traffic...."

Similar, but not the same. MT is not real time. Boatbeacon is real time where I boat.
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It is the same. Both get their data from ground stations not directly from ship AIS transmitters. Both are subject to lag and are as good as the Internet connection you have.


koliver;437344I don't think the information received by a receive only AIS could be any more accurate.[/QUOTE said:
An AIS receiver is more accurate. Not all ground stations relay real time. From their own faq "other stations report once a minute, they accumulate the data over a minute and then send it to us. So on average these reports are 30s behind real time." Boat beacons own site says it should not be used for navigation.
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cardude01 said:
Yes. Same goes for calling barge captains using the boat name. They already see you on their AIS so when you call them they always answer. If I'm coming up to a bend I ask them where they want me to be.

When they can't see me visually they are usually surprised when they finally lay eyes on my little boat. Which doesn't make sense because I think my size data should be on their screen.
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On our display, seeing your size info and other data requires a cursor movement and a button push. Not difficult, but not always worth futzing with... in situations where a negotiation is useful, no matter what size the other vessel might be.

-Chris
 
COLREGS or not, I just think it's stupid for someone in a 30' boat to expect an ocean liner to alter its course to avoid them. The guys on the cruisers forum were saying the ocean liner was supposed to alter its course for a 30' sailboat under sail.


And while we're on the subject, what is the "course" of a sailboat anyway? In my experience, it's similar to a squirrel trying to cross the road. The last time I came home from a cruise, there were a couple dozen small ones racing around randomly in the harbor directly in the channel. Each time I would change course to avoid them, they would turn into my heading.
 
People who have never driven a large ship or a large barge with an underpowered tug just can't understand.

Large ships alter course all the time when others are the stand on vessel...early usually so it DOESN'Tbecome an issue later. At least those captains I have dealt with and all, the USCG ships I sailed on (over 15 different ones if I recall corectly). In fact the CO would order to be briefed if even a close pass was coming up...like 3 to 5 mile CPAs.

The ship may have already altered course in accordance with multiple Colregs, and now your course change has just made things worse.

It is always a judgement call, so smaller vessels that make significant course changes well outside of even becoming a crossing situation...then great...but close aboard with multiple large contacts...randomly not following the regs creates headaches unless all vessels involved are making proper whistle signal arrangements. What a responsible skipper should do...not just "apply the law of tonnage" which usually exists in the minds of those who don't really understand the rules...that's why they are written and readily available to all...and TAUGHT somewhat even at the boater safety course level.

Sailboats randomly altering course in confined areas and cutting in front of power vessels aren't following the rules either.
 
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On the Tennessee River, the most insane boating I saw was pulling a water skier across in front of a tow and barges. Skier falls and they have no appreciation for the time it takes the tow to stop or alter course.
 
psneeld said:
Not all commercial vessels are required....have to check specific caregories till you get to a certain tonnage.

Maybe to use certain services but in general, I doubt the whole sound would be exclusive legislation.

It sure is a great idea...but has so many issues both in implementation and tech so far...that it still requires absolute trust in you radar in limited vis over AIS, and in good vis....a good set of eyes, situational awareness and decent radio skills offset it's importance.

Luxurious in some situations, just electronic eye candy in most.
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The rules just recently changed and pretty significantly increased the scope of vessels required to have AIS. I don't recall the exact phase-in schedule. The tonnage for commercial ships came down quite a bit (it was very high initially), and the requirement for passenger ships came was down to. Something like 65' and over with 20 passengers or more. But I think all rec vessels are still not required.
 
twistedtree said:
The rules just recently changed and pretty significantly increased the scope of vessels required to have AIS. I don't recall the exact phase-in schedule. The tonnage for commercial ships came down quite a bit (it was very high initially), and the requirement for passenger ships came was down to. Something like 65' and over with 20 passengers or more. But I think all rec vessels are still not required.
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Yep...just saw that yesterday and didn't get a chance to digest it yet.

But as usual, birds of a feather....so where most small recreational boats are ......so are other small boats, even commercial ones wit out AIS.....

.....like any other tool in the box.....over reliance on it is never good....but what it is good at...it is hard tp beat..
 
ranger42c said:
On our display, seeing your size info and other data requires a cursor movement and a button push. Not difficult, but not always worth futzing with... in situations where a negotiation is useful, no matter what size the other vessel might be.

-Chris
Click to expand...

It's just a couple of taps with a touchscreen...your fingertip is the cursor!!!
 
This notion that freighter, ferries, etc. won't change course for anything certainly hasn't been my experience. I've found that 90% of them do a great job of following the rules. For example, I've passed between the two crossing ferries in various places in the PNW, and they always do what they are supposed to do. I give way to the stand-on ferry, and the other gives way to me. I've called them on various occasions to confirm their intentions, and it's always as expected.

What I think a lot of people confuse is when large vessels are operating in a VTS lane system of some sort. Where there is a traffic separation scheme, participating vessels are required to stay in the lanes, and non-participating vessels are required to stay clear. In other words participating vessels are always stand-on relative to non-participating vessels who are always give-way. And that includes boats under sail.
 
WesK said:
COLREGS or not, I just think it's stupid for someone in a 30' boat to expect an ocean liner to alter its course to avoid them. The guys on the cruisers forum were saying the ocean liner was supposed to alter its course for a 30' sailboat under sail.
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They were right. COLREGS say so whether you like it or not. Do you think an 18 wheeler shouldn't stop at a pedestrian crossing because the pedestrian is so much smaller?

The problem is making it subjective. What if the sailboat is 60' and the cruise ship is 400'. Or 100' and 300'? Where do you draw the line? COLREGS does use as size of smaller than 20m as a "do not impede" limit for traffic lanes. It doesn't for open ocean under Rule 18.

WesK said:
And while we're on the subject, what is the "course" of a sailboat anyway? In my experience, it's similar to a squirrel trying to cross the road. The last time I came home from a cruise, there were a couple dozen small ones racing around randomly in the harbor directly in the channel. Each time I would change course to avoid them, they would turn into my heading.
Click to expand...
Those sailboats were not following COLREGs if they altered course to cut in front of you. A 30' sailboat in the ocean isn't going to be doing that right in front of a cargo ship. And if they do then they can expect to be hit.

Like I said - I do avoid collision courses a long way off - hopefully far enough away that the ship's captain has not started to change course. And this is where AIS is very useful.

Richard
 
twistedtree said:
This notion that freighter, ferries, etc. won't change course for anything certainly hasn't been my experience. I've found that 90% of them do a great job of following the rules. For example, I've passed between the two crossing ferries in various places in the PNW, and they always do what they are supposed to do. I give way to the stand-on ferry, and the other gives way to me. I've called them on various occasions to confirm their intentions, and it's always as expected.

What I think a lot of people confuse is when large vessels are operating in a VTS lane system of some sort. Where there is a traffic separation scheme, participating vessels are required to stay in the lanes, and non-participating vessels are required to stay clear. In other words participating vessels are always stand-on relative to non-participating vessels who are always give-way. And that includes boats under sail.
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Until the vessel required to not impede is impeding, then the stand on vessel is required to follow normal rules...rather than random like some think is the answer to tough helmsmanship. Rule 8 f iii if I remember correctly.

But it is so rare it is an issue unless multiple vessels are involved....again communications are the solution when within 5 miles of the big boys unless there is light traffic and unlimited sea room....because by then they may have already made their correction.
 
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psneeld said:
Yep, in come cases you are....

Places like major shipping channels, out guessing the big boys puts them in harms way, better to contact than to just randomly change course.

The guys in the English Channel know for sure...there it is like being a driver in Manhatten during lunch hour...no matter what you do you are turning into someone, something.

I even saw it in narrow ICW channels with assistance towing...at the last minute someone would change course after I already did...bad news.

The rules specify sizes in some situations on purpose....don't out guess the rules...communicate before breaking them....or don't be in a place/position where they matter...that's the easiest.
Click to expand...


Right. Remember, the rules require TWO things.

1) The give-way vessel needs to alter course.

AND

2) The stand-on vessel needs to maintain course and speed.

When the stand on vessel starts moving around it can really screw things up for everyone.

So, for example, when you give way to safely pass a boat under sail, then they decide at the last minute to tack and cut back in front of you, that's their bad. They don't get to play dodge ball with you.
 
psneeld said:
Until the vessel required to not impede is impeding, then the stand on vessel is required to follow normal rules...rather than random like some think is the answer to tough helmsmanship. Rule 8 f ii if I remember correctly.
Click to expand...


Yes, that's the rest of the story. But I'd argue that ALL of it is just following the "normal rules".
 
twistedtree said:
This notion that freighter, ferries, etc. won't change course for anything certainly hasn't been my experience. I've found that 90% of them do a great job of following the rules. For example, I've passed between the two crossing ferries in various places in the PNW, and they always do what they are supposed to do. I give way to the stand-on ferry, and the other gives way to me. I've called them on various occasions to confirm their intentions, and it's always as expected.

What I think a lot of people confuse is when large vessels are operating in a VTS lane system of some sort. Where there is a traffic separation scheme, participating vessels are required to stay in the lanes, and non-participating vessels are required to stay clear. In other words participating vessels are always stand-on relative to non-participating vessels who are always give-way. And that includes boats under sail.
Click to expand...

Twisted, my experience mirrors yours with ferries. Even with them however, if I can easily do so, I will alter my course long before there is ever a question as to a possible conflict. This allows the ferry to continue on their route unimpeded. The key in my own mind is to make that change very early and very clear. Most of the time, I am in the South Sound and not up around Seattle where there is a lot more traffic to contend with. In the Seattle area, there can be several ferries that could have a conflict with you at any given time as well as working around the traffic separation lanes. Being predictable and maintaining course as the stand on vessel is more important there.
 
BandB said:
On the Tennessee River, the most insane boating I saw was pulling a water skier across in front of a tow and barges. Skier falls and they have no appreciation for the time it takes the tow to stop or alter course.
Click to expand...

Or maybe it was the operator's mother-in-law on the skis. Just sayin'


Keith
 
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