NTSB renews El Faro VDR search

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And you wonder why the national debt is going up?

IMHO, a grand waste of taxpayers dollars. Perhaps uncle can bill it to the boat owner.
 
Just goes to show how creative one can be when spending someone else's money. Added bonus: if the VDR is found, there has to be a follwup mission to recover it. El Faro sank because it sailed in harm's way and was overpowered by the storm. The rest is a human factors question that will not be illuminated by VDR data.
 
Donsan; said:
IMHO, a grand waste of taxpayers dollars.
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sbu22 said:
Just goes to show how creative one can be when spending someone else's money.
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Interesting comments and certainly different from the professional mariners over on gCaptain who often have no say in where and when they sail.

"Let's not waste money" may have been the conversation that gave 33 people a burial at sea.
 
Hawgwash said:
"Let's not waste money" may have been the conversation that gave 33 people a burial at sea.
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As Bernie Sanders would say, that is a low blow. The issue to me isn't the money, it is whose money. All the costs of this should be billed to the ships owner. They made the decision to send the ship out, not the taxpayer.
 
Yes...but the trick might be....they might have the answer and we don't...neither do the grieving families.

Till the owners are found guilty of negligence...who are they to pay? is the insurance Co partly footing the bill?

They took the risk for pay.....may e they are just as interested and should pony up.

I don't have the answer.... but whometer is looking for answers at this point is paying the bills.

Ultimate payment is still around the corner.
 
psneeld said:
I don't have the answer.... but whometer is looking for answers at this point is paying the bills.
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I don't profess to have the facts, but my understanding of the matter is the attorneys for the (financially) grieving families addressed the issue to a certain US senator from FL who in turn has pressured the NTSB to continue the search.

Another words they want the US taxpayer to foot the bill to gather more evidence so they can get big time judgements against the ship owner. As usual, the guys that really have an interest in this are the litigating plaintiff's attorneys. I think this is an issue of private interest and not public interest.
 
Donsan said:
As Bernie Sanders would say, that is a low blow. The issue to me isn't the money, it is whose money. All the costs of this should be billed to the ships owner. They made the decision to send the ship out, not the taxpayer.
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Way too simplistic.
Assuming "they" made the decision to send the ship out, we spectators don't know the intricacies of that decision, nor who made what subsequent decisions over the day and a half following the departure.

Without an investigation we won't know anything about decisions or responsibility. With an investigation we still may not. But, in order to have any investigation, assess and attach culpability, the taxpayer ponies up first.

With up to 48 hours stored on the VDR, there could be a lot of "theys" to choose from. Or not.

Seems fair to me.
 
Hawgwash said:
Assuming "they" made the decision to send the ship out, we spectators don't know the intricacies of that decision, nor who made what subsequent decisions over the day and a half following the departure.

Without an investigation we won't know anything about decisions or responsibility. With an investigation we still may not. But, in order to have any investigation, assess and attach culpability, the taxpayer ponies up first.

With up to 48 hours stored on the VDR, there could be a lot of "theys" to choose from. Or not.

Seems fair to me.
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There is an investigation and there has already been an extensive search for the VDR. They were unable to locate it and have no idea where it came off. The issue here is the NTSB has been told to keep looking.

This is not in the public interest. But it makes good conspiracy stories.
 
Is there a number on that "waste"?

Could currently owned ships, manned by paid to go or sit sailors, and burn already funded fuel be the huge waste?

Again, I don't know.

I do know a lot of USCG searches that people worry about costing taxpayers is absolutely wrong. Those tax dollars are funded whether spent on a specific search or not. Wonder if this could be the same.
 
psneeld said:
Those tax dollars are funded whether spent on a specific search or not.
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Correct me if I am wrong but is there not an element of "research" in a search of this kind? After all how would they have ever developed an AUV capable of 20,000 foot depths, without missions like this? Is there not some "public interest" in most recovery missions?
 
Following your logic, knowledge and beliefs then, Donsan, why not make the families pay?
 
I can only speak of the way the USCG was historically and I suspect currently funded for core missions.

I am only saying that a ship that currently is assigned these types of tasks may be fully funded fod a search like this...but then maybe not.

I don't know, but they certainly are getting more training than sitting at the dock.
 
Hawgwash said:
Following your logic, knowledge and beliefs then, Donsan, why not make the families pay?
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I am having hard seeing how you can logically suggest such a thing.

My whole issue is why go back and do a SECOND search for the VDR at taxpayers expense. Wasn't the search, albeit in 15,000 ft of water performed correctly in the first place? Is there a duty to search the total ocean floor bottom until it is found? I believe what was done previously was reasonable.

IMHO, the mission of the USCG and the NTSB does not require unlimited evidence searches solely for the benefit of plaintiff attorneys. They have more important things to do with their time and resources.
 
Maybe not at the moment.
 
I found the VDR. All that is on it is one word....."Oops"
 
Thank you, Pgitug. Succinct.
 
I think people with more knowledge of the investigation, of findings to date, of what value they feel this might have are the ones to make the decision to return. That was not initially in their plans so something which has been learned during the investigation to this point has made them feel stronger about trying to locate the recorder.

Major accidents like this need full investigation if they're going to be prevented in the future and, often, if the responsible parties are to be held responsible. Whether it's tour buses, airplanes or boats, I think it's worthwhile. It may prevent similar some time in the future.
 
The VDR is a smoke screen. Diversion. Red Herring.

The meat and potatoes is the hull condition, the machinery condition, a 40 year sold converted rust bucket and the legal authority, inspection oversight and insurance guidelines that allowed such a travesty to sail are the real issues.

The VDR is just fluff.

Hull wastage, machinery being rebuilt 'in situ Underway' and inspection responsibilities are the key.
 
All those things may be contributing factors, but still not the cause of the accident.

Probably why they are conducting an investigation.
 
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psneeld said:
All those things may be contributing factors, but still not the cause of the accident.

Probably why they are conducting an investigation vesus just doing a poll on TF.
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Absolutely

And if they in fact did cause the accident, there may be something on the VDR that indicates that. They, at this point, feel it's worth more effort to locate the VDR. The NTSB is in the best position to know. They do not do smoke screen's.

This incident is probably not simple in that there are likely multiple contributing factors.

I trust NTSB to do the best job possible in examining this accident without undue influence by others such as TOTE. They are quite experienced in cutting through everything and getting to the facts or where clear facts are not all available reaching well founded conclusions.
 
The condition of the vessel at the time of the sinking will certainly be a primary factor in the sinking. Having six Polish fitters on board making structural/piping repairs while underway is indicative of a cause of the sinking (possible compromised ballast/bilge piping, a structural member temporarily removed eg) and also provides a clue as to owners modus operandi (no delay for repair/must stay on schedule).

I am of the opinion (probably a minority opinion on this site) that a well found, properly maintained ship of this size and horsepower had little to fear from the storm as forecast or even as encountered. The only reason to divert should have been comfort of the crew and/or care of the cargo. The reason I say this is that ships are designed for the real world and cannot always divert from unexpected storms so the design has huge safety factors built in.

I have sailed on ships in storms with 90' (measured) waves crashing over the bow. The ship had no issue. Although more than half the crew was puking. Gotta stay on schedule.

I think we are looking at condition of the ship and dangerously inept management practices as the true causes of the sinking.

But the Captain will be crucified posthumously as the cause.
 
McGillicuddy said:
The condition of the vessel at the time of the sinking will certainly be a primary factor in the sinking. Having six Polish fitters on board making structural/piping repairs while underway is indicative of a cause of the sinking (possible compromised ballast/bilge piping, a structural member temporarily removed eg) and also provides a clue as to owners modus operandi (no delay for repair/must stay on schedule).

I am of the opinion (probably a minority opinion on this site) that a well found, properly maintained ship of this size and horsepower had little to fear from the storm as forecast or even as encountered. The only reason to divert should have been comfort of the crew and/or care of the cargo. The reason I say this is that ships are designed for the real world and cannot always divert from unexpected storms so the design has huge safety factors built in.

I have sailed on ships in storms with 90' (measured) waves crashing over the bow. The ship had no issue. Although more than half the crew was puking. Gotta stay on schedule.

I think we are looking at condition of the ship and dangerously inept management practices as the true causes of the sinking.

But the Captain will be crucified posthumously as the cause.
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Maybe the minority...but not alone...:thumb:
 
McGillicuddy said:
The condition of the vessel at the time of the sinking will certainly be a primary factor in the sinking.
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And now, after the fact, we learn from the hearings El Faro was about to be placed on a watch list for more frequent and thorough inspections.

Also, and this is speculation on my part, reading between the lines of the hearing; CG seems to be raising one eyebrow at the lack of ship to shore emails during the event. Perhaps the motivation for a second VDR recovery mission?
 
Hawgwash said:
And now, after the fact, we learn from the hearings El Faro was about to be placed on a watch list for more frequent and thorough inspections.

Also, and this is speculation on my part, reading between the lines of the hearing; CG seems to be raising one eyebrow at the lack of ship to shore emails during the event. Perhaps the motivation for a second VDR recovery mission?
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The CG made it clear that they'd looked at previous TOTE communications with boats headed into hurricanes and there was a huge volume of emails versus them being given very few in this case. TOTE has done nothing through this to help their credibility. When they state they weren't following the storm or the vessel, it sounds like either dishonesty or incompetence. Notice that since the sinking they've acquired a storm tracking system, had none before.

It's one more instance of a company trying to place all the blame on persons lower in their hierarchy. In this case, they've attempted to say they are blameless and it all falls to the Captain. Well, no one involved can be blameless. They all shared some part of the culpability. This is like Jimmy Haslem disavowing any knowledge of what was going on in Pilot J. He wants us to believe as CEO he really knew of nothing going on around him, even though every other executive did.

I think TOTE may underestimate the investigative skills of the NTSB and USCG. Either than or I overestimate those skills.
 
BandB; said:
(among other things said)TOTE has done nothing through this to help their credibility. I think TOTE may underestimate the investigative skills of the NTSB and USCG. Either than or I overestimate those skills.
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You say what I was hesitant to and I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion. There was some telling, powerful and emotional testimony. I really do hope they find an intact VDR.
 
The calls to the emergency center were a nightmare too. Captain said the clock was ticking as the person answering was more concerned with the names and spelling. Obviously, in spite of the earlier contact, TOTE did not have their people alerted at all to the situation.
 
The VDR has been found. Getting it to the surface and reading the data is another story, but it's amazing that it was found.

 
Finding something about the size of a basketball three miles under the surface...It will be interesting.
 
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