gps/chartplotter

The iNAV app or Navionics allow*an Ipad to*work as*a very good touch screen chartplotter. I do not nor will I (not soon anyway) own one but i did check them out at a recent boat show. Stunning to say the least. As a second or third unit on a boat they may be the ticket. Cost, maybe less than $1000. Have you priced a big name plotter lately? I just bought a second NN3 unit for the flybridge - I was torn.

Sunchaser, I don't think that iPad will do well in direct sunlight....I KNOW it won't. Your NN3 will work wonderfully in full sunlight. THAT is ultimately what you are paying for. Sunlight viewable displays are extremely expensive and are THE main cost of your NN3 or any chartplotter.

And Benn, I wasn't saying you shouldn't use computer nav apps, I was just saying you should probably have a dedicated nav system on board to fall back on. *Computer nav systems are likely more detailed and even potentially more user friendly with way more features. *But all of that does introduce the potential for problems. *So if it does go tits up, you still have a solid system to fall back on. *I mean, I fly a $100 million dollar airplane that has beautiful bright displays that do all kinds of neat stuff....but guess what is in the center panel....mechanical gyro standby instruments. *Regular simplicity for the last resort.

PS...the new United Airlines will be going with the iPad for their digital flight bags. I will believe it when I see it but that is what we have been told. We will be carrying around iPads instead of those 80lb flight bags full of charts and manuals. Sure will be nice not to have to carry around that bag anymore....or have to do chart revisions.....which is literally the worst thing about being a pilot.


-- Edited by Baker on Saturday 19th of February 2011 10:06:42 AM

Baker wrote:Sure will be nice not to have to carry around that bag anymore....or have to do chart revisions.....which is literally the worst thing about being a pilot.

Click to expand...

So what's second because it is about to become #1. :>))

*

The continuous decline in life style quality felt industry wide. And for me that was the number ONE issue and has been for quite some time now. Evidence by declining quality if schedules regardless of seniority, declining number of days off between trips, more and more "back side of the clock" flying together with daytime flights withing a trip pairing, minimum crew rest layovers, declining pay scales, loss of pensions,........, but I digress.

SteveH

Baker wrote:

Sunchaser, I don't think that iPad will do well in direct sunlight....I KNOW it won't.

PS...the new United Airlines will be going with the iPad for their digital flight bags. I will believe it when I see it

Click to expand...

On a recent flight back to Seattle from Charleston (well, Atlanta, really), a fellow across the aisle from me was reading a book on his brand new iPad.* I was reading a book on my Kindle.* The plane made a course adjustment and the sun came in the windows on my side of the plane and hit his iPad screen.* The person in the window seat was not inclined to close the shade so that was the end of this fellow's reading and he took out a regular book.

I know we're looking at all sorts of applications for the iPad here.* Don't know about pilot stuff but for maintenance operations in particular*it has a lot of potential that's being actively explored.

I recently tried the computer based nav program called Open CPN with a cheap puck GPS on my net book. It worked great as long as I was inside. Since I don't have a inside steering station, it's pretty much useless unless it's cloudy. But it's a great and cheap backup and good for planning.

John B, you'll love not lugging your brain bag. USAir went to aircraft based brain bags about 2 years ago. Cheaper than computer based and if it can be done cheaper, USAir will do it. The FAA awarded some money to USAir to test a EFB which they installed on about 20 Airbus'. The 10" screen is hard wired into the AC system and will display current position on the airport pages in addition to all the other approach plates. I guess it gets it's position data from the Aircraft GPS. The FAA is on a big push to reduce runway incursions and they are using USAir and these EFB to see if giving the pilot a pictorial view of the aircraft position helps reduce ground incursions. It automatically updates the charts through the internet via some sort of card and I think security issues have prevented the FAA from turning them on. So for about a year we've had these EFB's which have been totally useless.

I can't believe the intensity of opinions here. What's the big deal?
Marin wrote:
"If you go with a dedicated plotter the only brand worth considering in my opinion is Furuno."
How rediculous. Opinion or no. There's lots of systems out there and they all work well but some have better details in some ways than others. We choose one unit or system over others because we LIKE it better. Just like boats. PCs have advantages over plotters and plotters have advantages over PCs. The difference is fly stuff. The idea that if you don't have the stuff I have you'll be in a dark cave and totally lost is childish. Marin made that remark on page 1 and it seemed to give everyone else license to do same. That said here's my opinion.
I like the Plotter because:
1. * It's brighter*** ..much brighter. Not sure why that is in that my new iMac is so bright I never run it at max brightness. Do you guys run your laptops on computer batts instead of 12v boat power? It would seem to me the PCs could be as bright and contrasty as my iMac but all PCs I've seen are very dark and w very little contrast. It must be like reading a book in half light.
2.** Like Walt says it's more user friendly.
3.** It's reported to be more dependable.
I like the PC because:
1.** Bigger screen.
2.** More economical
3.** I think there's more information like tidal currents. And people say the PC display shows more information from the chart.
About the latter I seem to recall someone saying ALL the information from the charts is on the Plotter so I'm wondering how a PC could be better than a plotter in this regard. I don't like it when I zoom in to check out an anchorage (I do that a lot especially when underway) and the shoreline is a series of straight lines saw tooth style and there's no soundings. I've been told that's because there's there's no more information on the chart and I've looked at charts and found this to be true but I didn't take an extensive survey. Other than that the only thing I'd like plotter wise is another plotter so I can see the close in information for immediate navigation information (like a rock 200yds dead ahead) while I surf around at charts and chart information far from the boat where we will be in a few hours time. I don't like multi-function displays. My radar came w it's own display and all I need from the sounders is a number.
I think I'd do fine piloting my boat w a PC system or another brand of plotter and assuming that one brand is supreme and all others garbage is nonsense.

nomadwilly wrote:

Marin wrote:
"If you go with a dedicated plotter the only brand worth considering in my opinion is Furuno."
How rediculous.

Click to expand...

What's ridiculous about it?* That's my opinion.* If I'd left out the "in my opinion" you'd be right.* But that's how I feel.* In my opinon there's Furuno and then there's everything else and I wouldn't buy any of the "everything else" brands if a radar is involved.* Furuno has too good a reliability track record and*repuation for excellent and prompt service when it's needed to settle for anything less.* *But that's just*me.* Doesn't mean anyone else*has to agree with me.* But if someone asks me what*radar or integrated radar/plotter*I recommend, the only one I'm going to recommend is Furuno because that's the ony one I would ever buy.* So I'm having a hard time seeing how that position*is ridiculous.

We will be acquiring a new*GPS plotter for our Arima fishing boat in a month or two.* Just a plotter--- no radar.* We're not going to go with Furuno for that because for this particular*boat it wouldn't be cost effective.* So we're going with another brand which, I'm sure, will work just fine for what we need it to do.

As to PC vs Mac, I use both every day, both desk-type and laptop,*and in my opinon it's six of one half dozen of the other in terms of screen brightness, etc.* In the applications I use there are some that a PC handles better and there are others that a Mac does a better job with.

But my*attitude toward computer-based chart plotters is that I don't believe in layering one computer application (the plotter) over another one (the computer's operating system).**Particularly an operating system from Microsoft.* Of course I do this all the time with all the other applications I use--- Avid editing systems, Adobe AfterEffects,* ProTools audio applications,*Photoshop, etc.* But I'm not using these applications*to navigate our boat in the fog

Marin,It just sounded like you said Furuno is next to that bearded fellow up in the sky and all other brands are garbage. I read "not worth considering" as marketing for garbage. And being closed minded. You should have said "the way I feel about it" is bla bla bla. And closed mindedness is ridiculous. But that's OK Marin as I've prolly said a few ridiculous things somewhere along the way myself.


About the Mac/PC thing I've had 3 computers since I've been on TF. The 1st was a small and old Mac that was given to us by Chris's brother. It got me started. I learned to post on TF and WBO on that one. Then we spent $1000 on a Compac PC over in Ketchikan. * And after a year or 2 w that (the thing drove me nuts at times) I bought a 27" iMac all in one at the Apple store in the University Village in Seattle. I know part of the reason the PC had so many issues was that it had Vista program. That set us back $2200 plus $300 for the router/time machine. I love the programs and the way things are presented AND the beautiful pictures. The name of the sales girl we bought the iMac from is Kady. Believe this or not but her parents named her after the Kady Krogen Yacht. A really neat lass and not an ounce of push in her sale at all. I'm learning new ways of doing things all the time. Very clean. Almost no unwanted stuff comes in at all. I have no laptop and when I go out of the house I go into a computerless world. Never even use a cell phone here in Alaska * *...just don't need one.

Eric--- I have always used Macs at home. In fact we bought the third Mac sold in Seattle in 1984 (the inside of the case has the signatures of everyone at Apple who worked on the Mac project from Steve Jobs on down). I much prefer their user interface to PCs. Boeing standardizedon PCs years ago so I have no choice in the matter at work. But I've found that once you're in an application like Word (which I write with at home on a Mac and at work on a Dell) or just about any other application the differences between Mac and PC as a user (as opposed to a program designer/code writer) are pretty minor.

They say that Macs tend to be favored by creative people and PCs by analytical people. A generality, for sure, and the distinction has been blurred to a degree by the ability to run many of the same applications on both platforms. But I find the stereotype still has validity to it. For example, ever notice that in movies and TV shows, 90 percent of the time when someone is shown using a laptop it's a Mac. Even when you know damn well that the situation in reality would call for a PC. You're not going to find a government agent or a cop or a CSI invstigator or a rocket scientist with a Mac. They'll have a PC for the same reasons that Boeing standarized on PCs. But on a movie or TV set, the only computers you'll find almost everyone using is a Mac. So that's what they put in their scenes. I see this all over the world, not just in the US. We work with airline people all overthe planet--- always PCs.* We also work with airline's ad agency people from countries as diverse as Turkey, England, Egypt, and Germany.* Always Macs.

-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 22nd of February 2011 02:52:31 PM

Hi Marin,
"They say that Macs tend to be favored by creative people and PCs by analytical people."
Hmmmm....... Someone that knew me well once "Eric-----your'e the most analytical person i've ever known".* But I have a minor in art and can be creative too. I should spent a month or so off line and learn to do all the amazing things Kady showed us on the iMac at the Apple store. But on the boat so far I like the Garmin.

nomadwilly wrote:

But on the boat so far I like the Garmin.

Click to expand...

We have Garmin nav units for our vehicles and for that application I would venture to say they are the best and most user-friendly.* But when we get around to installing a new GPS plotter in our Arima prior to our upcoming halibut trip to the north end of Vancouver Island I believe we'll probably go with a Standard Horizon.* We haven't started actual comparison shopping yet but we would like to stay with the C-Map chart system as we've been so satisfied with it on the GB.

*

We use Std Horizon. Started with a 5" black and white, then upgraded to the color 10". C-Map chips are amazing - easy to use and accurate.

The 10" model is no longer made, but I think there is a 12" one with a built in radio available.

The new chips (MAX) even have current predictors shown with colored arrows (Red, Yellow, Green) for real time graphic representations of what the water is doing.

When you are in the San Juans or the Gulf Islands, this is the only way to try and figure out which way to go and get a push, as it is hard to calculate which pass is ebbing in one direction while another nearby one is doing the other.

When traveling in the PNW below Campbell River, I have found the Tides and Currents book with updated (yearly) Murray tables to be far more accurate and user friendly than the electronic charting or computer based programs. For those of you not familiar with this book, it has an hourly*velocity of current arrow for every possible location. Don't leave home without it!

My question is: How do you even START deciding what chartplotter to buy? I WANT one... I don't NEED one. The one we have is quite old (Raytheon 420, I think... monochrome), but we've been doing the paper thing with great success. Besides, just tooling around the ICW?... Really... How much chartplotter do we really need? The next buoy is never out of sight with binocs.

bshanafelt wrote:

When you are in the San Juans or the Gulf Islands, this is the only way to try and figure out which way to go and get a push, as it is hard to calculate which pass is ebbing in one direction while another nearby one is doing the other.

Click to expand...

Our Furuno NavNet VX2 has the current direction and strength indicators for the places that its important, like narrow passes and channels.* But even though they are always displayed we never use them.* We use three paper references for tides and currents.

One is the annually published "Ports and Passes" guide that comes out of Canada but covers Puget Sound waters as well.* This gives the tide ranges for each day of the year as well as maximum and slack current times for the important passes.

*The second one is the Canadian Current Atlas which covers the San Juan and Gulf Islands in detail and the Strait of Georgia in a broader picture.* The Atlas is made up of pages that represent an hour difference in current strength and direction.* The Atlas never changes as it reflects all the possible current characteristics.* There are separately published annual tables that tell you which pages of the Atlas to use to see the current directions and strengths for a given date and time.** So for 0900 on March 1, it will refer you to page xyz which will show you with arrows of varying widths the direction and strength of the currents throughout the region covered by the Atlas.

The third one is the Captain Jack's Current Atlas.* It works the same as the Canadian Current Atlas described above but it covers the regions from the south end of Puget Sound up through SE Alaska.* The problem with this is that the Atlas itself has been out of print for years.* You can find them used, which is how I got ours.* But the annual current tables are still published.* I like it because it covers areas the Canadian Current Atlas doesn't cover.* We use the Captain Jack atlas and annual table, for example, for our halibut fishing trips to the north end of Vancouver Island.* Halibut react to currents and it's very helpful to know which way teh currents are going to go and when.

GonzoF1 wrote:

My question is: How do you even START deciding what chartplotter to buy?

Click to expand...

We buy our all our electronics from a local marine electronics dealer in Bellingham.* Yes, you can get better prices on the internet but this dealer (and most others I expect) get very close to the internet prices.*

So when we have needed a new piece of electronics*we have gone to him for his recommendation.* He carries a variety of brands, not just Furuno and Icom, and is very familiar with most of what's on the market.** So he tells us what he thinks would meet our requirements and then we go and read descriptions, reviews, and comparisons on the internet.* So far, he's not steered us wrong.

We like supporting our local suppliers, plus you get something you don't get off the internet--- personal service when you want or need it.**To us, this is worth the little extra we pay above an internet "best price."* For exmple when we bought and installed our Furuno NavNet the owner of the electronics store came to our boat and spent well*over an hour showing me how to properly align the radar display*and so on.* He also showed me the various "hidden" key combinations that get you into various setup modes that are not included in the user operations manual.* Almost all of our electronics--- Icom radios, Furuno radar/plotter, Echotec plotter--- have these "secret" setup modes meant for the dealers and repair shops and it's very handy to have someone tell you what they are and how to use*them because they are sometimes the answer to what seem like problems that crop up.

In addition to the dealer(s) you can talk to people in your area to see what kind of plotters*they use and why they like them.

For us our search for various components has also been narrowed down by how big*or small* it has to*be to fit in the space, what we want the display to look like, and what we want to be able to do with it.* Once those things have been determined we then go to the dealer and say, these are our parameters, and he comes up with a list of recommendations.* He's a long-time boater, former commercial operator, and so has a great working understanding of the realities of running a boat.* So he has a lot of credibility in his customers' eyes.* I would probably*not feel the same about a salesman in a*West Marine store.

Too bad there is nothing like that around here. Certainly not in the Raleigh area, however, I don't know if there is one in the Wilmington area. I'd love to support a local merchant if I can. Always been big on that.

*EDIT* A quick Google search reveals I may have options in the Wilmington area.

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Wednesday 23rd of February 2011 05:48:34 PM

GonzoF1 wrote:

*EDIT* A quick Google search reveals I may have options in the Wilmington area.

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Wednesday 23rd of February 2011 05:48:34 PM

Click to expand...

********* I would think there should be some.

********* If you do not use your current unit, you probably don't need anything to elaborate.

********* First I would figure out how large a screen you want.

********* The big ones are big $$$

**********Then I would pick a brand and research the options online.

**********When you go to the store you can ask more questions and get recomendations

********* At least you will have an idea if it is*going to cost 500. or 5000.*

********* I have never had an issue with Garmin Chartplotters I have owned.

********* JohnP

Garmin | GPSMAP 700

Take one of these for a test ride.

Hard buttons are a must. Check out some YouTube videos of touchscreen failures when they are cover in rain water. Touchscreens are great, but I would require hard buttons too, as our flybridge is not totally enclosed.

timjet wrote:

I recently tried the computer based nav program called Open CPN with a cheap puck GPS on my net book. It worked great as long as I was inside. Since I don't have a inside steering station, it's pretty much useless unless it's cloudy. But it's a great and cheap backup and good for planning.

John B, you'll love not lugging your brain bag. USAir went to aircraft based brain bags about 2 years ago. Cheaper than computer based and if it can be done cheaper, USAir will do it. The FAA awarded some money to USAir to test a EFB which they installed on about 20 Airbus'. The 10" screen is hard wired into the AC system and will display current position on the airport pages in addition to all the other approach plates. I guess it gets it's position data from the Aircraft GPS. The FAA is on a big push to reduce runway incursions and they are using USAir and these EFB to see if giving the pilot a pictorial view of the aircraft position helps reduce ground incursions. It automatically updates the charts through the internet via some sort of card and I think security issues have prevented the FAA from turning them on. So for about a year we've had these EFB's which have been totally useless.

Click to expand...

Tim, we likely have the same exact ones in about 40 of our 757s. *It was a good idea...just poorly executed(hmmm...dunno how that oculda happened with the FAA involved). *What happened with us(and likely y'all) was that the device was supposed to update via wifi at the hubs. *Well, we went cheap and didn't buy the provided Jepp based revision system...we went with a cheaper alternative and it was not suffered compatibility issues......anyway......

*

Marin wrote:

*

Click to expand...

We like supporting our local suppliers, plus you get something you don't get off the internet--- personal service when you want or need it.**To us, this is worth the little extra we pay above an internet "best price."* For exmple when we bought and installed our Furuno NavNet the owner of the electronics store came to our boat and spent well*over an hour showing me how to properly align the radar display*and so on.* He also showed me the various "hidden" key combinations that get you into various setup modes that are not included in the user operations manual.* Almost all of our electronics--- Icom radios, Furuno radar/plotter, Echotec plotter--- have these "secret" setup modes meant for the dealers and repair shops and it's very handy to have someone tell you what they are and how to use*them because they are sometimes the answer to what seem like problems that crop up.





*



Marin, that is likely some of the best advice you have ever given on here!!! What amazes me is the people that buy "lowest price" off of the internet and then go to the nearest dealer when they have an issue and then get pissed off when that dealer does not treat them with kid gloves.


-- Edited by Baker on Sunday 27th of February 2011 10:24:10 AM

Baker wrote:



Marin, that is likely some of the best advice you have ever given on here!!! What amazes me is the people that buy "lowest price" off of the internet and then go to the nearest dealer when they have an issue and then get pissed off when that dealer does not treat them with kid gloves.


-- Edited by Baker on Sunday 27th of February 2011 10:24:10 AM

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We do have such a place here in Eastern NC right*in New Bern.* Ensley's Radio http://www.ensley.com/*** They do all of the work on Hatteras's new boats.**

Back 10 years ago I needed some work done an a sailboat and asked around but was told that these folks were way out of sight price wise.* Well as it turned out*that was just folks talking that wanted everything for free.* *I had Ensley come over and estimate a small job and then had them do the work.* Every thing was done as requested and worked as needed.* The only problem was that a month and a half had gone by and I had not received a bill.* So I called expecting the worst and after a few minutes the lady came back to the phone and explained as nicely as possible that they were covered up with some other work and she had not had time to figure my bill but it was on her desk and she*would do so that week.* Again I was on pins and needles expecting to be over charged as everyone said I would be.*

Well a week later the bill came in the mail and when*I opened it I was floored.* My wife and I had a bet as to how much we would be over charged from the original estimate and we were.* The original estimate was $1,050 for the labor and materials needed (we had our own new*chart plotter installed plus the rewire of the*existing radar to the helm and a junction box for the radar*at the keel stepped mast installed) and the bill was for $1,078 total.* What the lady was trying to be nice about was that my bill was so small that she didn't have time for it.

I do need some work done on this boat and this fall I will have them do the work without a doubt.

Looks like I have settled on a Standard Horizon brand. I like what they provide in features at a much more reasonable price than other brands.

As promised, I talked to a local marine electronics guy and wasn't very impressed with his approach, however, I have yet to see a price offering from him. He was a fast-talking guy who talked more than listened and he didn't get glowing reviews from others I talked to. Good thing my marina can order stuff for me, but I haven't gotten a price from them either.

Anyway, going to look at the CP390i, CPF390i, and the new CPN700i. All three are 7" screens (perfect size for me, I think), internal antenna so I can move it to lower helm, and can accept a SiTek radar array. We'll see if the 700i stays within my budget. It's a bit fancy-schmancy for our needs, but if I can get a good price, sobeit. I suspect I'll end up with the CPF390i with the onboard fish finder. If you recall, I have some issues with my current depth sounder and this would resolve that.

Tom-

Be sure to verify that your existing transducer is compatible with the Standard Horizon unit you are looking at. I found that my Plotter is capable to display depth info, but will only run on one specific transducer.

I don't have one other than the cheap-o from Hummingbird that I know will not work. So I'll be getting one of those soon too.

Transducers are likely proprietary anyway.

bshanafelt wrote:

Be sure to verify that your existing transducer is compatible with the Standard Horizon unit you are looking at. I found that my Plotter is capable to display depth info, but will only run on one specific transducer.

Click to expand...

Airmar Technolgy, who makes most of the transducers out there, has good cross referencing data on their web site.* We added a*temperature sensor to a discontinued Furuno depth/fish finder very easily.

http://www.airmartechnology.com/

*

Just had the GPS puck (Deluo) die after 6 years. I guess the little Li battery gave up.
I had it mounted on the PH roof in a weatherproof plastic box.

I couldn't get another Deluo, so bought a Prolific. The software supplied, including the USB to serial driver was incompatible with Windows XP and even caused a blue-screen crash on my laptop.

I swapped it out for a Holux, with equally hopeless software supplied, but*was able*to download a different driver from the web and all works fine. In fact, the sensitivity is so good that I don't need to put it on the roof.

With such software problems being common according to various web forums, you really need to be a bit of a geek to get these things going. I don't understand how these manufacturers can put this stuff out knowing it*won't work properly - unless you're a certiified systems engineer!