Government studied putting Ethanol into diesel

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy03osti/34817.pdf

IMO, all ethanol in fuel is a bad idea.
But what do you expect, will the EPA someday mandate ethanol into diesel?

Apparently this has some benefit. and is being done for some particular uses.
http://cornandsoybeandigest.com/energy/they-add-ethanol-diesel

The ethanol farmers and makers say it works good!

sdowney717 said:

will the EPA someday mandate ethanol into diesel?

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Maybe not the EPA directly, but I'm sure the Corn Lobby would be all over it.

Glad this didn't go further than the 2003 report...yet.
Check out page 36 Table 4-4 and on.

It would be a catastrophe to most diesel powered boats as many have fiberglass fuel tanks. Fiberglass fuel tanks and ethonal do not mix!

Capt. Jon said:

It would be a catastrophe to most diesel powered boats as many have fiberglass fuel tanks. Fiberglass fuel tanks and ethonal do not mix!

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Aye, it has a bad effect on fiberglass tanks in gas powered boats, something those owners had to deal with, but that did not stop the government from enforcing ethanol use in gasoline.
Recreational boaters likely the only few affected having fiberglass tanks, they are small potatoes, so maybe viewed as acceptable casualties by the government and EPA, adapt or die type of thing, tough luck. Plenty of unfortunate gas boat owners suffered.

That was with older formulations of polyester resins, so maybe newer boats are ok with it.

Not all glass tanks are effected and mant tanks can be coated with epoxy on the inside as a repair.

Ethanol has been used at my marina and my towing area for nearly 5 years now...it isn't that big of a deal....with some effort....but not that much more than any fuel system requiring basic attending to.

Speaking from here in the heart of corn country, boaters avoid ethanol mixes as much as we possibly can, and gas stations around the marina - about a mile from the nearest corn fields - even advertise no-ethanol gas. What galls me the most though, the few farmers I know also avoid it like the plague in farm equipment.

New Jersey has had it for at least 5 years or more, everywhere.

Doesn't seem to be the problem it is made out to be other than everyone who doesn't have it talking about it.

Less than great? Yes, but not nearly what I hear about its reputation discussed here.

psneeld said:

New Jersey has had it for at least 5 years or more, everywhere.

Doesn't seem to be the problem it is made out to be other than everyone who doesn't have it talking about it.

Less than great? Yes, but not nearly what I hear about its reputation discussed here.

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And Connecticut has had even longer and I agree that once you learn how to deal with it it's not that big of a problem.

Last fall we purchased a new vehicle. It has a very nice fuel consumption read out and tracking system. I have heard for years that E10 will not get as good mileage as straight gasoline. So, in driving from AZ to WA lately I was able to purchase non E gas and compare read outs vs E10.

Yup, the differences were noted, in favor of E10! What gives I ask? Only a dyno and exact octane, Inlet temperatures, elevation controlled etc data known and recorded will tell the tale. Until then I will sagely nod knowing from a scientific basis that E gasoline fuels provide lesser oomph.

As far as diesel additives for cleaner air, watch out for VWs fix for their fraudulent activities. Diesel types and additives (beyond urea) are being investigated. To avoid bankruptcy some extremes are being considered, whether financial, management or technical.

BTW, what is bio diesel other than a way to get the farmers into the mix? If you have a real Deere whether what you get subsidized is for gas or diesel who cares?

Let’s see. When compared to gasoline: Ethanol has 2/3 of the energy density; is a “seed to wheel” net and substantial thermodynamic loser when compared to “well to wheel” gas; produces less than to massively more GHG emissions depending on biomass source; has much higher NOx emissions; 40+% higher corn based food cost for humans and livestock; exceedingly hygroscopic; cannot be pipelined; and is damaging to older engine accessories at E10 – disastrous at E85.

Then, of course, there’s the billions of taxpayer dollars – if you think the major benefactors are a mom and pop 200-acre farm, think again. It’s names like ADM, ConAgra, Bunge that reap the major benefits. And good luck finding the actual, hard number dollar transfers that that make up the true cost – it’s spread over dozens of agencies from DOE to DOD. The RFA (just one ethanol program) and its progeny are a major ripoff. But those guys send more fat envelopes to DC than the sheep.

And, of course, while oil/gasoline prices have fallen off a cliff, the Renewable Index Number (RIN - required by the EPA to prove that a refinery has been adding ethanol up to the 10 percent mark – traded as a commodity) has increased $0.76/gallon and EPA is planning future and greater forced ethanol content.

What a steaming load.

One thing in that report is that E-Diesel is also as, or more, flammable than gasoline (I seem to recall it is a type 1 fuel, like gas) so would require powered ventilation, back-fire flame arresters and spark-protected accessories like gas engines do. So to use it we would have to back-fit out engines and engine rooms. That would be a huge show-stopper for me. Hope this stays dead.

Marty...................

"What a steaming load"

What ever blend of political bio fuel is forced on over the road diesel, will be our boat fuel source .

Regardless of how damaging it is.

MartySchwartz said:

One thing in that report is that E-Diesel is also as, or more, flammable than gasoline (I seem to recall it is a type 1 fuel, like gas) so would require powered ventilation, back-fire flame arresters and spark-protected accessories like gas engines do. So to use it we would have to back-fit out engines and engine rooms. That would be a huge show-stopper for me. Hope this stays dead.

Marty...................

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MSDS of bio diesel shows Flashpoint at 100 degrees F which is pretty close to regular diesels and no where near gas.

Have any links to the report you heard?

psneeld said:

New Jersey has had it for at least 5 years or more, everywhere.
Doesn't seem to be the problem it is made out to be other than everyone who doesn't have it talking about it.
Less than great? Yes, but not nearly what I hear about its reputation discussed here.

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I think the real issues are not whether it works well as a fuel, but the possibility of it chemically reacting with some tank and fuel line materials, and how well will it cope with being left for longer periods in the tanks, as tends to happen with most of us. It is quite hygroscopic, so will tend to absorb moisture.

Referring to above comments...I agree, in cars designed with lines and tanks that are compatible, no problem. My car is a 1990 GT4, turbo, yet runs well on E10. Why? Because of this interesting fact...which I had sort of suspected actually, because of how well it does go in my car, compared to say 'regular' 91 octane pure fuel. Here's why...

"Unleaded E10 is United Petroleum's ethanol-based unleaded petrol offering. As a result of ethanol being present, it has an octane rating of 95; higher than the 91 octane of normal unleaded petrol. Ethanol is a natural octane enhancer - adding ethanol to petrol boosts the octane number and its performance."

Quite possibly in biodiesel it will also have that effect, but the water absorption/corrosion issue remains a concern.

psneeld said:

MSDS of bio diesel shows Flashpoint at 100 degrees F which is pretty close to regular diesels and no where near gas.

Have any links to the report you heard?

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Correct. A read of the various bio fuel manufacturers sites and Wikipedia report flashpoints for biofuel to be much higher than regular diesel. Mid 200s F for bio diesel vs mid 100s for petroleum diesel.

Rudolf Diesel himself was a user of bio diesel as he perfected various aspects of his engine. A drive through Europe finds bio diesel blends pervasive.

But, the oil glut has dampened the economic realities of bio diesel especially in the US where pump diesel can be found for less than $2 per gallon.

"MSDS of bio diesel shows Flashpoint at 100 degrees F which is pretty close to regular diesels and no where near gas."

Biodeisel and E-diesel are different animals.

Biodiesel made by chemically reacting lipids (veg oil, soybean oil, tallow, etc.) with an alcohol to produce fatty acid esters that are the biodeisel.

E-Diesel is diesel mixed with ethanol. This drags the mixture flashpoint down toward the ethanol FP of 63 F.

Peter B said:

"Unleaded E10 is United Petroleum's ethanol-based unleaded petrol offering. As a result of ethanol being present, it has an octane rating of 95; higher than the 91 octane of normal unleaded petrol."

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I'm sure someone with a better organic chemistry background will chime in, but my understanding is that historically, more octane in the mix of hydrocarbons meant a fuel that didn't pre-ignite as easily. Blends with a higher octane ratio could be used in engines with higher compression, avoiding the problem of pre-ignition ("pinging".)

Other things, such as ethanol, can have the same effect, making the "effective" octane rating higher, even though there's not actually more octane in the fuel. It still releases less heat (fewer calories) when burned, reducing efficiency overall.

In other words, ethanol makes gasoline worse, not better.

CaptTom said:

I'm sure someone with a better organic chemistry background will chime in, but my understanding is that historically, more octane in the mix of hydrocarbons meant a fuel that didn't pre-ignite as easily. Blends with a higher octane ratio could be used in engines with higher compression, avoiding the problem of pre-ignition ("pinging".)

Other things, such as ethanol, can have the same effect, making the "effective" octane rating higher, even though there's not actually more octane in the fuel. It still releases less heat (fewer calories) when burned, reducing efficiency overall.

In other words, ethanol makes gasoline worse, not better.

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Yes, and consider ethanol does boost octane, BUT, refiners know this and use gasoline of lesser octane to mix with ethanol to get to the target octane number.
It is not they take good gas and put in ethanol, they take poorer octane gas and put in ethanol to get it back to say 87 octane. ethanol is mixed into the gas station tank at the station. The refiners know how damaging ethanol is to their infrastructure, but we have to live with what they do and that according to government mandates. Laws we can change, it is hard but not impossible to change the laws.


A future car engine may be electric hybrid, not an internal piston engine, but a fuel cell. Seems good to go with a direct gasoline fuel cell which is more efficient than a piston motor.
So direct conversion of gasoline to electricity to electric battery and motor.
http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/n...ll-directly-fueled-with-jet-fuel-or-gasoline/

If it triples gasoline efficiency, it might tip the balance away from diesel even for boats.

Peter B said:

I think the real issues are not whether it works well as a fuel, but the possibility of it chemically reacting with some tank and fuel line materials, and how well will it cope with being left for longer periods in the tanks, as tends to happen with most of us. It is quite hygroscopic, so will tend to absorb moisture.

Referring to above comments...I agree, in cars designed with lines and tanks that are compatible, no problem. My car is a 1990 GT4, turbo, yet runs well on E10. Why? Because of this interesting fact...which I had sort of suspected actually, because of how well it does go in my car, compared to say 'regular' 91 octane pure fuel. Here's why...

"Unleaded E10 is United Petroleum's ethanol-based unleaded petrol offering. As a result of ethanol being present, it has an octane rating of 95; higher than the 91 octane of normal unleaded petrol. Ethanol is a natural octane enhancer - adding ethanol to petrol boosts the octane number and its performance."

Quite possibly in biodiesel it will also have that effect, but the water absorption/corrosion issue remains a concern.

Click to expand...

I would think as an assistance tower for the entire transition to ethanol laced gas period...I have a pretty good handle on what the "added ethanol" is doing to vessels in all regards...mainly because I follow up on my tows, asking the disabled boater what was the final determination of the problem and how it was rectified.

The comments on if it is a better fuel or not....E-gas at 10 percent was actually supposed to provide better power....e-diesel on the other hand was supposed to lose a bit. That was the early readings...and from local testing...the e-gas was rarely 10% ethanol so it was actually a little under rated and had lower octane than it should have.

The fixes for the issues associated with adding ethanol except for a few fiberglass tanks and really only engines with really old seals and hoses are pretty simple and inexpensive.

The biggest headache were the difficult to access fiberglass fuel tanks that couldn't handle the ethanol....but those were only a speck in the boating community...but I do feel for those that got hurt.

The only real trick with ethanol fuel..at least the gas was don't let much free water get to it as it will phase separate in a heartbeat. just letting moisture laden air get to it takes a LONG time in my experience to get to that point.

Still a steaming load without any objective benefits and with plenty of downsides - unless you're collecting checks from Uncle Sugar.

Science and climate be damned. The politicians will "study" Lego as an additive if enough special interest money is up for grabs.

Big difference in agreeing with the concept of ethanol and trying to live with it till it changes...just offering the reality is that it is nowhere as bad as what you read about it on the internet.

Not really on the topic, but when did that matter?

Here is an interesting demo. And even I would not do this at home.