Old Puddle Pirate
Newbie
I'm not sure but if any part of the transaction was through the US Mail there may be mail fraud involved and as best I,know the postal investigators get very upset over those kind of things. Might be worth checking in to
Broker malpractice ?
- Thread starter BinkleyBoat
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Or, maybe it is a simple matter of the UPS Store in Apollo Beach returning it to the brokerage if no one claimed it.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Welcome aboard Mr. OPP.
Welcome aboard Mr. OPP.
Nick14
Guru
I have become so disgusted and disenchanted with my own experiences with brokers that I have all but given up searching for a used boat. I've been here before, and ended up buying new just so I wouldn't have to deal with used boat brokers.
My own experiences have been nearly universal misrepresentation of the condition of a boat, or other circumstances related to its sale. I know brokers are trying to get potential buyers to come see a boat (so they can report back to the seller the count of 'showings'), but if the condition of a boat is grossly exaggerated to me, and I travel a long way to see it, I'm not going to buy it. I'll just be pissed for having my time wasted.
FWIW, I've had consistently outstanding dealings with Trey Schaeffer of Coastline Yacht Sales in Baltimore MD. I found him to be honest, straightforward, forthright, hard working, and a pleasure to work with. If I was still living on the east coast, I wouldn't hesitate to work with him again.
Best of luck in straightening out your current situation.
My own experiences have been nearly universal misrepresentation of the condition of a boat, or other circumstances related to its sale. I know brokers are trying to get potential buyers to come see a boat (so they can report back to the seller the count of 'showings'), but if the condition of a boat is grossly exaggerated to me, and I travel a long way to see it, I'm not going to buy it. I'll just be pissed for having my time wasted.
FWIW, I've had consistently outstanding dealings with Trey Schaeffer of Coastline Yacht Sales in Baltimore MD. I found him to be honest, straightforward, forthright, hard working, and a pleasure to work with. If I was still living on the east coast, I wouldn't hesitate to work with him again.
Best of luck in straightening out your current situation.
BinkleyBoat
Senior Member
So, how are you associated with this broker?
Or......are you the broker?
You cited some info that only the broker knew and you changed your avatar to a guy in jail.
That is just weird.
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BinkleyBoat
Senior Member
Thanks, I knew I wasn't the only one.
Mabey we should start a "Creepy Brokers from Hell" thread.
Maybe you should learn how to select a good buyer's broker to represent you and assist you. I'm sure the brokers could just as easily start a "Creepy Customers from Hell" thread. I know some very excellent brokers who, if I was looking for a used boat, I'd turn the task over to. Same way I'd buy a house, by finding a broker I trusted and letting her help.
Any additional information today?
BinkleyBoat
Senior Member
State of Florida contacted me and requested I file a formal complaint. Will do that tomorrow.
No word from the broker.
And, I have spoken with several buyers brokers. One wanted me to sign a contract that guaranteed him a minimum commission of 5K. Another told me that he would only travel 100 miles and then he was on the clock, aka my nickel.
At this point I'm out of the broker market.
I'll find a boat in the private market.
No word from the broker.
And, I have spoken with several buyers brokers. One wanted me to sign a contract that guaranteed him a minimum commission of 5K. Another told me that he would only travel 100 miles and then he was on the clock, aka my nickel.
At this point I'm out of the broker market.
I'll find a boat in the private market.
Britannia
Wannabe
Obviously people's experiences vary greatly. Here are mine.
I made three offers before buying Stillwater. In all three cases my deposit check (personal) was never cashed. In all three cases I did not have a buyer's broker.
The first two offers were local to me. In the first case the boat was overpriced and I believe the owner had purchased it from the same broker less than a year before - at an inflated price. The broker was reluctant to present my offers to the seller telling me that the seller would be offended. I felt that it was the broker protecting himself from being embarrassed. I soon backed out when it was clear we weren't even close on price.
The second case was an older boat that was also over priced. I couldn't get a loan on it because of the high price and in the end dropped out because we weren't able to agree on a final price. I later found out that the seller fired his broker for not really being realistic with him about what he could expect to get for the boat.
The third time was a charm. The boat was in Ketchikan, the seller in Anchorage and I was in SF Bay Area. For the first showing, the seller agreed to meet me at the boat since he had to fly down to check up on her. I flew up, saw the boat and stopped by to meet the broker in Seattle on the way home. After the offer was accepted I flew up a second time for the surveys and sea trial. The broker also flew in from Seattle and spent the weekend with me and the owner. He rolled up his sleeves and helped the owner wash the boat for the survey. The broker helped me find great financing and generally seems like a very honest guy. He has contacted me a few times in the last year to see how things were with the boat. Nothing I have found in the last year has led me to believe that anything was misrepresented. I feel like I got exactly what I had expected.
I'm happy to provide the name of the Seattle/Tacoma based broker to anyone who wants it.
Richard
I made three offers before buying Stillwater. In all three cases my deposit check (personal) was never cashed. In all three cases I did not have a buyer's broker.
The first two offers were local to me. In the first case the boat was overpriced and I believe the owner had purchased it from the same broker less than a year before - at an inflated price. The broker was reluctant to present my offers to the seller telling me that the seller would be offended. I felt that it was the broker protecting himself from being embarrassed. I soon backed out when it was clear we weren't even close on price.
The second case was an older boat that was also over priced. I couldn't get a loan on it because of the high price and in the end dropped out because we weren't able to agree on a final price. I later found out that the seller fired his broker for not really being realistic with him about what he could expect to get for the boat.
The third time was a charm. The boat was in Ketchikan, the seller in Anchorage and I was in SF Bay Area. For the first showing, the seller agreed to meet me at the boat since he had to fly down to check up on her. I flew up, saw the boat and stopped by to meet the broker in Seattle on the way home. After the offer was accepted I flew up a second time for the surveys and sea trial. The broker also flew in from Seattle and spent the weekend with me and the owner. He rolled up his sleeves and helped the owner wash the boat for the survey. The broker helped me find great financing and generally seems like a very honest guy. He has contacted me a few times in the last year to see how things were with the boat. Nothing I have found in the last year has led me to believe that anything was misrepresented. I feel like I got exactly what I had expected.
I'm happy to provide the name of the Seattle/Tacoma based broker to anyone who wants it.
Richard
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BinkleyBoat
Senior Member
And a very beautiful boat she is.
Glad you had a great experience. It's not a rare occurrence, of that I'm sure.
I am not anti broker in any way. But I have had my share of bad experiences and it's very frustrating when the people that are supposed to be facilitating a sale are actually doing things, saying things and implying things they know are wrong, misleading or outright lies.
They are not just having a negative effect on me but also the seller and the professionals that do care.
Here is a quickie that happened a few weeks back
We drove three hours to look at a boat. Arrived on time and the broker was sitting in his car waiting for us. We greeted and tried to make some small talk, no smiles, no hand shakes, just " the boats this way". We followed him to the slip. He said " there she is " and walked into some shade and told us he would open the boat when we were ready. I pull the boat over to board my wife and told him we were ready. He came over and opened the boat, unzipped the path to the fly and went back to the shade tree. No lights, no AC, no talk, no nothing. So we looked around and retired to the shade tree to ask some questions. He was not real helpful. I ask him about the engines, have they been run, maintained, maintenance records, ships papers, etc. He didn't know. So I said, well let's start it up!. I thought he would have a heart attack. Oh we don't start engines, against company policy. But, if you give me a deposit I can call the owner. But I'll need a check and a accepted offer before I could start the engines. My wife let him know we were going to pass on him, not the boat. And we did. Drove three hours back home.
The next day he called and said the owner said he could start the engines. I told him " that's great".
BB.
Glad you had a great experience. It's not a rare occurrence, of that I'm sure.
I am not anti broker in any way. But I have had my share of bad experiences and it's very frustrating when the people that are supposed to be facilitating a sale are actually doing things, saying things and implying things they know are wrong, misleading or outright lies.
They are not just having a negative effect on me but also the seller and the professionals that do care.
Here is a quickie that happened a few weeks back
We drove three hours to look at a boat. Arrived on time and the broker was sitting in his car waiting for us. We greeted and tried to make some small talk, no smiles, no hand shakes, just " the boats this way". We followed him to the slip. He said " there she is " and walked into some shade and told us he would open the boat when we were ready. I pull the boat over to board my wife and told him we were ready. He came over and opened the boat, unzipped the path to the fly and went back to the shade tree. No lights, no AC, no talk, no nothing. So we looked around and retired to the shade tree to ask some questions. He was not real helpful. I ask him about the engines, have they been run, maintained, maintenance records, ships papers, etc. He didn't know. So I said, well let's start it up!. I thought he would have a heart attack. Oh we don't start engines, against company policy. But, if you give me a deposit I can call the owner. But I'll need a check and a accepted offer before I could start the engines. My wife let him know we were going to pass on him, not the boat. And we did. Drove three hours back home.
The next day he called and said the owner said he could start the engines. I told him " that's great".
BB.
If you keep having issues with broker after broker, then there's only one commonality to that equation and that's you. You need to evaluate what you're doing wrong. $5k guarantee is simply his half of a commission on a $100k boat. If he then finds you a boat for less, I would think that's still a good deal. The other broker outlining his distance limitation without you picking up the cost is also reasonable. The brokers who just say, "fine, we'll do it" with no requirements or details are the ones that get you into trouble. I don't know of any buyer's broker who would have advised you sending a cashier's check. Perhaps it wasn't you I advised not to do that in advance, but know I advised someone not to on this site and they gave the reasons they must. There is no reason whatsoever for a broker to require it.
There are good people in every profession and that includes brokers. There are even some good brokers on this site. Whether it's brokers or lawyers or any other group, when we lump them together and say they're all bad, then we're attacking some good people as well.
Now, I do wish luck in getting out of this situation and think in time you will. Either the broker banked the check, which it appears from what you posted he did not, or sent it by uninsured and untrackable mail like an idiot. If so, ultimately the bank will return your money and you should be able to recover the cost from the broker, at least with pressure from the state.
There are good people in every profession and that includes brokers. There are even some good brokers on this site. Whether it's brokers or lawyers or any other group, when we lump them together and say they're all bad, then we're attacking some good people as well.
Now, I do wish luck in getting out of this situation and think in time you will. Either the broker banked the check, which it appears from what you posted he did not, or sent it by uninsured and untrackable mail like an idiot. If so, ultimately the bank will return your money and you should be able to recover the cost from the broker, at least with pressure from the state.
BruceK
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I`m guessing Hawgwash`s post was an attempt to lighten an unhappy situation.
The hoops you jump through to recoup the funds in the cashiers check show how close to cash the check is. Here, when you hand over a Bank Cheque at house purchase completion, you get the title docs and the keys, in exchange.
Of all the brokers I have dealt with, 2 stand out as clearly competent, ethical, and reliable. I hope you find one you can rely on.
The hoops you jump through to recoup the funds in the cashiers check show how close to cash the check is. Here, when you hand over a Bank Cheque at house purchase completion, you get the title docs and the keys, in exchange.
Of all the brokers I have dealt with, 2 stand out as clearly competent, ethical, and reliable. I hope you find one you can rely on.
BinkleyBoat
Senior Member
Thanks.
Filing the complaint tomorrow.
89 days to refund.
Filing the complaint tomorrow.
89 days to refund.
We canceled a deal on a boat purchase, the boat failed the survey. The broker delayed refunding our deposit for 7/10 days and when he finally did we said he mailed a check. 8 days later, no check. I ask him to stop payment on the check and reissue a new one and Fed X it.
He advised me he never deposited the cashiers check that I originally handed him, he just put it in an envelope and mailed it back to me. Now it's lost and my responsibility, according to him.
So, what do you think. My problem or his. IMO he mishandled my funds and the responsibility to make this right is his. In the best case circumstance I will now have to pay to stop payment on my original check, worst case I just lost my deposit.
Need some wisdom from the great forum garu's please.
BB.
I think you should hire an attorney to get reimbursed for the stop payment fee your bank charges you.. That will teach him. Or, you can take the broker to small claims court to recover the fee.
You could just ask the broker to pay you back for the stop payment fee. He will probably pay it just to make things right.
I'm guessing you are out $25 or so and this seems like a small amount to get worked up over. It's less than a typical restaurant meal. It certainly doesn't constitute "malpractice".
This has been a strange and sad thread. Two things went wrong here:
1. The buyer gave the broker a cashier's check when a personal check would have worked fine. If the broker asked for the cashier's check then that should have been a clear indication that he wasn't going to deposit it until the survey was accepted and closing was assured.
2. The broker did not deposit the check in his escrow account and apparently lost it after the survey went bad.
Unfortunately the brokerage industry has gotten lazy and in many cases like these the deposit check simply gets returned. I have had deposit checks returned, but they were all personal checks. In my experience a high percentage of offers don't get accepted or contracts fall apart after survey so the broker just holds the check and returns it if it goes bad. It is easier for him but leads to problems such as this one.
If the deposit were made as a personal check, then the buyer could have quickly stopped payment (for a fee of course). Since it was a cashier's check, it is much more complicated..
From the broker's perspective, he screwed up, but there is nothing he can do about it. The buyer has to go through all of the hassle to get the check cancelled.
I would advise having a conversation with the broker now about reimbursing you for all of the costs of cancelling the check. It will be lots easier to come to an agreement now rather than after you have filed a complaint.
David
1. The buyer gave the broker a cashier's check when a personal check would have worked fine. If the broker asked for the cashier's check then that should have been a clear indication that he wasn't going to deposit it until the survey was accepted and closing was assured.
2. The broker did not deposit the check in his escrow account and apparently lost it after the survey went bad.
Unfortunately the brokerage industry has gotten lazy and in many cases like these the deposit check simply gets returned. I have had deposit checks returned, but they were all personal checks. In my experience a high percentage of offers don't get accepted or contracts fall apart after survey so the broker just holds the check and returns it if it goes bad. It is easier for him but leads to problems such as this one.
If the deposit were made as a personal check, then the buyer could have quickly stopped payment (for a fee of course). Since it was a cashier's check, it is much more complicated..
From the broker's perspective, he screwed up, but there is nothing he can do about it. The buyer has to go through all of the hassle to get the check cancelled.
I would advise having a conversation with the broker now about reimbursing you for all of the costs of cancelling the check. It will be lots easier to come to an agreement now rather than after you have filed a complaint.
David
Shaunc
Veteran Member
Most of these Brokers, I believe are governed by some state regulatory body and I know from my real estate business that this is one of the most serious violations that one can occur and there are normally very strict guidelines and time frames for handling other peoples money.
I see you are in Florida and I would Call DBPR 850.487.1395. You can also also go tho this link and enter his name and/ or companyyou can see how he is registered with the state and if he has violations.
There is also a link as to how to file a complaint on the site.
https://www.myfloridalicense.com/wl11.asp?mode=1&SID=&brd=&typ=
They will go after him in Florida fore sure!!!
I see you are in Florida and I would Call DBPR 850.487.1395. You can also also go tho this link and enter his name and/ or companyyou can see how he is registered with the state and if he has violations.
There is also a link as to how to file a complaint on the site.
https://www.myfloridalicense.com/wl11.asp?mode=1&SID=&brd=&typ=
They will go after him in Florida fore sure!!!
Shaunc
Veteran Member
David
In Florida, its the brokers duty to handle other peoples money with care and under the regulations. Most times they wont accept a personal check in case it bounces as it voids the contract, so being asked for a cashiers check is normal. I know in Real Estate and I believe its the same in boats that the check must be deposited into a none interest bearing separate escrow account that HAS to be reconciled regularly or face fines from the state.
Give him 24 hours notice to resolve and then file a complaint with the state.
In Florida, its the brokers duty to handle other peoples money with care and under the regulations. Most times they wont accept a personal check in case it bounces as it voids the contract, so being asked for a cashiers check is normal. I know in Real Estate and I believe its the same in boats that the check must be deposited into a none interest bearing separate escrow account that HAS to be reconciled regularly or face fines from the state.
Give him 24 hours notice to resolve and then file a complaint with the state.
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sunchaser
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My money, my choice. This thread perfectly exemplifies why the buyer has to be careful as to how their money is handled.
A personal check should be just fine. The personal check should not bounce back as it was never deposited. We are speaking of an offer prior to survey here, not the final transactions where all sorts of ribbons and bows need tidying up.
I've never known a broker (house or boat for that matter) that wouldn't accept a personal check as a deposit. Yes, a bounced check voids the contract. So do a lot of other things. Mainly the buyer is always able to back out of the contract until the home inspection or the boat survey are complete and all things are to their satisfaction. Very seldom is there ever a binding contract, not subject to anything more.
I know with total certainty I would never use a cashier's check for a deposit, and I say this as a warning to others not to. If the broker wants to wait for your personal check to clear, then fine. Do not let them pressure you. Also, in Florida and California, make sure they are licensed. If so, they are bonded, and, as in this case there is another avenue to recover, that through their insurance/bonding.
BruceK
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Even unbanked, it has some value. It indicates to the seller the "buyer" is sufficiently interested to hand over a monetary deposit. Not a lot, but better than no deposit check.
Of course it has a purpose and value. It means the prospective buyer is interested enough to put out that much money. And it can be cashed as appropriate.
Capt.Bill11
Guru
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. 11. "An un-cashed/not deposited personal check has value!?" Of course. More so than a blank piece of paper.
Check: "7 : a written order directing a bank to pay money as instructed :"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/check[1]
Mr. 11. "An un-cashed/not deposited personal check has value!?" Of course. More so than a blank piece of paper.
Check: "7 : a written order directing a bank to pay money as instructed :"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/check[1]
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Capt.Bill11
Guru
Maybe in your world. But in mine, until the money is in my hand or in my account, it has no more value than a blank piece of paper.
In fact they can be of equal value. In that they can both be nothing more than an IOU that is worth no more than the paper it is written on.
Maybe in your world. But in mine, until the money is in my hand or in my account, it has no more value than a blank piece of paper.
In fact they can be of equal value. In that they can both be nothing more than an IOU that is worth no more than the paper it is written on.
Yes - agreed, we often get checks that have non sufficient funds backing them. But the point is if there is an intent to show real interest then cash the check so you know it has value. If not then just take their word for it rather than waste time with a piece of paper that may or may not have value.
Pack Mule
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This is not related but maybe it will give everyone a good chuckle .
When we tried to buy our first house a long time ago there was a charge
($25 I think )when the bank did a credit check on you . Well my credit charge check I wrote bounced . Joy got the call from the bank that day ,"Mrs Joy we are sorry to inform you but your credit check bounced " ouch! . She meet me at the door that day when I came home from work and it wasn't for a kiss .
When we tried to buy our first house a long time ago there was a charge
($25 I think )when the bank did a credit check on you . Well my credit charge check I wrote bounced . Joy got the call from the bank that day ,"Mrs Joy we are sorry to inform you but your credit check bounced " ouch! . She meet me at the door that day when I came home from work and it wasn't for a kiss .
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