Joystick only, no ships wheel

I'd have no issue using one of the modern steering systems, such as the one Will Ham provided the Dashews as well as one of his auto-pilots. Or like the commercial boats use. I used the little wheel on my AP remote to steer 90% of the time, usually with the AP on and it just adjusting the heading. But also as a "power steering" unit.

On a twin engine boat, if the steering fails, you steer with the engines.

Personally, I have spent plenty of my life using a steering wheel, so it's not a "joy of boating" requirement. I liked being able to sit back and take in the surroundings, or moving around with the "wheel" still in one hand.

Britannia said:

So you don't have an autopilot? I find no pleasure in hand steering for hours on end. Might as well just stand out in the rain, cold and wind and still have my sailboat

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Aw heck, don't you really miss it after all?

Britannia said:

So you don't have an autopilot? I find no pleasure in hand steering for hours on end. Might as well just stand out in the rain, cold and wind and still have my sailboat

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No need to chastise! - LOL Just the fact that you boated too long and too often... while... "stand[ing] out in the rain, cold and wind and still have[ing] my [your] sailboat"... shows your latter year needs to now often use AP!!

Kidding aside. If I get to where we B taken long jaunts, ya know... multi week/month coastal trips... AP would be my choice too. Currently in the small-stream realm of SF Delta, for cruising and swimming and anchoring... I really enjoy playing Captain with wheel in hand. In the Delta... course corrections to follow sloughs, rivers, canals, dock at different marinas and restaurants and the like preclude AP use. Part of my fun in Delta waters is close-up boat handling. With twin screws it's a blast.

BTW - Shat can happen... with electronic controls. Can with mechanical controls too... but I'd rather have...........

At Great Harbour, we installed the Simrad FFU system in most of the GH47s that we built. Several of these boats went to owners with little or no big boat experience. However, I found that training these owners with the FFU lever (tiller) was much easier than training other new owners on a traditional wheel helm. All of them found the FFU lever very intuitive - basically, point it in the direction you want to go.

We also left the full hydraulic system in place with a steering shaft hidden in the center of the helm station and an "emergency" wheel stored underneath. It all worked pretty flawlessly and our owners loved the system. MUCH easier to go lock to lock on the rudder during docking maneuvers - while also handling twin engine controls and thruster.

In the picture, you can see the Simrad FU lever on the right, in front of the Mathers controls - and the stub of the steering shaft in the center of the cabinet door.

Lee Simpson built Sonata with joystick controls and no wheel. He built it as a PNW boat and also added a tethered remote control for docking. I don't know who is running this boat now, but it looked nice!

Cars that drive and park themselves... boats that pilot and dock themselves... where's the fun in it all??


Give me a good ol' loud exhaust muscle car that can leave a 150 strip of rubber and a boat that can continually test my handling capabilities! Other wise - I'm taking my wife into the bedroom and we ain't cummen out till big grins are on our faces! That's a promise!!

Greetings,
Mr. A. Sorry, wrong joystick and WAY too much information....

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. A. Sorry, wrong joystick and WAY too much information....

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I know... sometimes what I say scares me too!

...another GH47 helm/pilothouse - this one "East Passage". Just had to post because it's such a cool shot...

While there are many kinds of joysticks from those simply designed to bump the AP course to those designed for docking to those designed to replace wheels. We still have wheels and often use them. But we also have joysticks. Joysticks hold a couple of very significant advantages. They can take you directly to the direction of your choice. You want to move to the side, you go to the side. With a wheel, you have to go through other stages to get there and still have to use other controls. Also, a joystick can include and use all your means of steering and propulsion, not just your rudder. It includes your engines and your thrusters. To accomplish what you can with a single joystick conventionally you need to use your steering wheel, both engine throttles and gears, and your controls for your bow thrusters. Last, joysticks allow easy replication in multiple areas of the boat and even portable. Someone mentioned six sets of controls. Can you imagine if those all had to have steering wheels, gear controls, throttle controls, and thruster controls? Instead they are simple and compact.

LarryM said:

Aw heck, don't you really miss it after all?

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If I had a wheel like that I might be tempted!

It is too bad that Raymarine discontinued their Autopilot SeaTalk Joystick. It looks like it would be pretty handy to have. As far as boat stuff is concerned, it wasn't as expensive as many items.

Tiller bars (joy sticks?) aren't new. My dad used one on Lac Leberge
years ago. No wheel (power steering) , it controlled a steam valve to a cylinder. Oops, there was a wheel, it went across the stern with multiple
beater bars (paddles)

Ted

Sailor of Fortune said:

Jog levers are standard equipment on commercial boats. I haven't been on a tug with a wheel in at least 25 years. I have also never steered with Full follow up, only use non follow up. You most certainly can "steer" a boat with a jog lever, or else I have been doing it wrong for 30 plus years.

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Ok, tell us how you used a jog lever to counter the equivalent of a "weather helm". Looking forward to how you keep, say, 2 degrees of rudder with only "left full", "right full", and "center" commands.

Edit: I think I see your point. Nudge left or right to drive rudder, centering does nothing. Can't recall seeing that configuration but would certainly be possible.


Keith

Jog lever lets you keep as many or as few degrees as you want. NFU, leaves the rudder where you stop pushing the jog lever. Want 3 degrees port? a moment on the lever and let go. rudder stays where you leave it...

We used the Raymarine Jog-type lever like S.O.F. is referring to on one GH37. Although it worked fine, I found it nowhere near as intuitive as the Simrad FU system - especially around the dock. The button on top returns the rudders to center.

kraftee said:

We used the Raymarine Jog-type lever like S.O.F. is referring to on one GH37. Although it worked fine, I found it nowhere near as intuitive as the Simrad FU system - especially around the dock. The button on top returns the rudders to center.

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I was contemplating that control for my new EVO pilot. I already have the ST-STNG converter. Is it spring loaded? My main use case is maneuvering in and out of my slip where I'd like to shift the rudder quickly (my steering rams total 39 cubic inches) but not have it move if I let go of the lever. That control has a couple of configurable modes but the docs are unclear.


Keith

Yes, the joystick is spring loaded. I just found it a bit difficult to get a "feel" for how far it has moved your rudders. So when you are trying to quickly go to opposite lock, you find yourself leaning on the lever while still trying to manage throttles, clutches, thrusters, etc. However, it is nice to always be able to center your rudders with a push of the button! YMMV

ERIC

kraftee said:

Yes, the joystick is spring loaded. I just found it a bit difficult to get a "feel" for how far it has moved your rudders. So when you are trying to quickly go to opposite lock, you find yourself leaning on the lever while still trying to manage throttles, clutches, thrusters, etc. However, it is nice to always be able to center your rudders with a push of the button! YMMV

ERIC

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Kids who have grown up playing games and using joysticks don't have those issues. They're use to subtle small movements with one and big bold moves. Power wheel chairs also use joysticks and it takes some a bit to adjust, whereas with kids it's just second nature.

Okay. I understand that. However, with a video game you SEE the results as you are manipulating the joystick. With a wheelchair, it actually moves. Even with the IPS and Zeus joystick controls, you feel the boat move in the direction you are moving the stick.

With a spring-loaded rudder joystick, especially when sitting almost still in a docking situation, you really cannot see or get a concept of where your rudders are unless you stare at the rudder angle indicator.

The same could be said for a steering wheel, but you (or at least I) have a much better idea of how far you have turned that wheel, intuitively, than a spring loaded joystick.

But that's just how it worked out for me. I did not like the spring-loaded Raymarine joystick at the dock. It was okay underway.

kraftee said:

But that's just how it worked out for me. I did not like the spring-loaded Raymarine joystick at the dock. It was okay underway.

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I've never used the Raymarine spring loaded. I've used Zeus, Yacht Controller, and Xenta. We use the Autopilot and the wheel when at the helm, but joysticks for close maneuvering and docking.

Keith,

As I understand it, the RM had two modes. One would return the rudder to amidships when released. The other would leave the rudder in the deflected position when the joystick was released. That second mode is what I think you would use?

However, I don't think RM makes those anymore even for the newer EVO autopilots.

dhays said:

............ BTW, stupid question time, what happens on a hydraulic steering system if the hydraulics fail? No rudder control I imagine? What drives the pump for the hydraulic system?

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My hydraulic steering failed once as I was leaving the dock. The boat made a complete 360. Halfway through this, I realized that it was most likely because the fluid was low (it had a minor leak) so I ran below in time to back it into the slip using the lower helm.

I refilled the upper helm and we were on our way.

A better plan, of course is to check the steering before casting the lines off.

On my Sea Star, the helm is the pump. More specifically, the helms are the pumps.

refugio said:

To be clear, a jog lever is for a temporary operation, like a dodge. It's real simple - basically a "bang/bang" lever for left or right rudder.

A FFU (full follow up) lever is a proportional steering control - move the lever (for example) 10 degrees and leave it there, and the rudder goes to 10 degrees...and stays there.

You cannot "steer" a boat with a jog lever.


Keith

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That's not quite true. A jog lever is all I have seen on tugs for over 20 years. There were a few old boats that had both a wheel and an electronic jog stick. But the idea that a jog lever cant be used to steer a boat is false.

The jog lever installation means that the steering system uses electrically driven solenoids to shunt hydraulic pressure to the ram(s). A jog lever is just another way to control steering. As some mentioned, a steering system that uses the wheel to pump the hydraulic fluid can't use jog levers.


Personally I don't like FFU levers. Unless in a specific situation where the levers are large enough to use as a visual/physical indicator of rudder location. The FFU levers I have used (simrad) are not proportional. Meaning the first 5 degrees of throw are not equal to the rest of the throw. I have used FFU levers that were exact representations of rudder location, and were great. The 'overthought' systems like Simrad are not intuitive.

dhays said:

BTW, stupid question time, what happens on a hydraulic steering system if the hydraulics fail? No rudder control I imagine? What drives the pump for the hydraulic system?

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On my boat (which I believe is fairly typical), the wheels drive mechanical pumps that are part of the same system that the AP's power pump drives. So even if the AP or its pumps fail, the wheels still work. That redundancy is their raison d'etre.

I'm happy with a destroyer wheel, as well as the left-right joy stick for the bow thruster.

This has been an interesting read! Not sure what kind of system this is, need to bug the broker some more.

Thanks!