gray water

When operating on Lake Champlain, boaters must have their MSD rendered inoperable and all overboard lines disconnected and plugged."

They can require resident boats to do that, but the 33 CFR citation I posted above: no State or political subdivision thereof shall adopt or enforce any statute or regulation of such State or political subdivision with respect to the design, manufacture, or installation or use of any marine sanitation device on any vessel subject to the provisions of this section...
that is not identical to a regulation prescribed under section 4302 of this title makes it clear that they cannot require transient vessels to disable any installed system...that they can only require that it be "secured" using one of the acceptable means described in 33 CFR 159.7 But because none of the "Loopers" are willing to risk going through the hassle of being the test case in court that would prove that, they all cave and disconnect even though no one knows of a single one of 'em who've ever even been inspected. And so another gov't agency successfully moves one small step closer to gov't gaining total control of the people without ever firing a single shot.

HeadMistress said:

When operating on Lake Champlain, boaters must have their MSD rendered inoperable and all overboard lines disconnected and plugged."

They can require resident boats to do that, but the 33 CFR citation I posted above: no State or political subdivision thereof shall adopt or enforce any statute or regulation of such State or political subdivision with respect to the design, manufacture, or installation or use of any marine sanitation device on any vessel subject to the provisions of this section...
that is not identical to a regulation prescribed under section 4302 of this title makes it clear that they cannot require transient vessels to disable any installed system...that they can only require that it be "secured" using one of the acceptable means described in 33 CFR 159.7 But because none of the "Loopers" are willing to risk going through the hassle of being the test case in court that would prove that, they all cave and disconnect even though no one knows of a single one of 'em who've ever even been inspected. And so another gov't agency successfully moves one small step closer to gov't gaining total control of the people without ever firing a single shot.

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I think you are right, but the law still stands and can be enforced. And like many illegal laws, it will stand until challenged and struck down.

HeadMistress said:

I didn't realize till I read your post that the brochure RT cited wasn't produced by any state or local enforcement agency, it's just propaganda from the "Lake Champlain Committee," a self-appointed group of well-meaning people who've decided how things should be and have just enough of their facts right to be dangerous. They aren't even based on Lake Champlain, but in VT! Here's the link to their website The Lake Champlain Committee - Working for a healthy, accessible Lake Champlain

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But wait, about half of Lake Champlain is in VT, and Burlington where the Lake Champlain Committee is headquartered is on Lake Champlain.

woodscrew said:

It would be interesting to dump dye into some random toilets in NYC and see where it comes out. Just saying'.

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That would be crazy to see all those red and blue and yellow alligators in the sewers

twistedtree said:

But wait, about half of Lake Champlain is in VT, and Burlington where the Lake Champlain Committee is headquartered is on Lake Champlain.

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But the L C Committee is an environmental group that can advocate but NOT make law...that's why they can't (won't) cite any Fed, NY and\or VT Reg's or Laws that back them up.

"So, if I plumbed my grey water discharge to exit via my engine exhaust..."

For RV's this was actually done in the 60's - 70's era as a way of getting rid of black water underway..

A bit more complex than just a Y valve , and car exhaust is not water cooled , but it has been done.

Many RV have plumbing that always tanks the Black and allows the Grey to be captured or discharged directly in a campground.

This could be our boating future , bigger waste tanks.With more frequent pump outs.

HeadMistress said:

I have twice written to the Lake group that published that brochure asking them to cite the NY and/or Vt law that their statement re; grey water refers to.

I didn't realize till I read your post that the brochure RT cited wasn't produced by any state or local enforcement agency, it's just propaganda from the "Lake Champlain Committee," a self-appointed group of well-meaning people who've decided how things should be and have just enough of their facts right to be dangerous. They aren't even based on Lake Champlain, but in VT! Here's the link to their website The Lake Champlain Committee - Working for a healthy, accessible Lake Champlain

And it's a prime example of how, if some group claims that something is so, people just assume that it is and spread it as "fact." RT fell victim to it, and till I read your post, Don, so did I...I even saved the bookmark to my Laws and Regulations folder!

As soon as I have time after I get back from the show in CA, I'll search state and federal legislation for any citation that backs up their claim that it's illegal to discharge gray water on Champlain and I'll also take another run asking them to produce any. I prob'ly won't have any more luck than you did, though.

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Truthiness again.

"So, if I plumbed my grey water discharge to exit via my engine exhaust..."

For RV's this was actually done in the 60's - 70's era as a way of getting rid of black water underway..

But only for a very short time because it damaged catalytic converters but also resulted in VERY smelly exhaust that vehicles following those RVs found intolerable.

A bit more complex than just a Y valve , and car exhaust is not water cooled , but it has been done.

At least two companies have tried it on boats, but neither lasted long because it only worked on boats with dry exhaust--mostly muscle boats--and had the same odor problems it had on RVs. Wet exhausts, found on 90% of recreational vessels, don't get hot enough. "The ZLD" is/was another try that may or may not still be in business...its website is still up The ZLD

Many RV have plumbing that always tanks the Black and allows the Grey to be captured or discharged directly in a campground.

Most RV parks have direct hookups for both sewage and gray water. Except for very dumpy "mom and pop" operations you wouldn't want to stay in, none allow gray water to be just discharged onto the ground.

This could be our boating future...

Not very likely, Fred.

HeadMistress said:

But because none of the "Loopers" are willing to risk going through the hassle of being the test case in court that would prove that, they all cave and disconnect even though no one knows of a single one of 'em who've ever even been inspected. And so another gov't agency successfully moves one small step closer to gov't gaining total control of the people without ever firing a single shot.

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Ahem....For the record I'm one who did NOT cave

Bacchus said:

But the L C Committee is an environmental group that can advocate but NOT make law...that's why they can't (won't) cite any Fed, NY and\or VT Reg's or Laws that back them up.

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I agree. I was just responding to Peggy's comment that the org was in VT, not lake champlain. In this context, they are one in the same.

The question of disconnected/disabled black water hoses came up a few years ago and I know I went and read the actual laws back then and found it I think in both the VT and NY books. I started to pursue it in VT where I own property since I agree that it is in conflict with the federal laws, and Champlain meets the criteria for for falling under the federal CG and EPA laws since it is navigable to the sea. But I quickly decided it wasn't a crusade I wanted to take on at the time, which is exactly the problem. It's easier for any individual to a) take a different route and skip Champlain, b) take the risk that you won't get boarded and inspected and called on the law, or c) just disconnect the hoses then reconnect when you get out of the area. To me this is the perfect task for the BoatUS government liaison group. as a representative of it's constituent's interests. I'm convinced that if challenged, the law would get struck down, but it needs to be challenged which is a giant PITA, and surely costly.

So if this is a regulation that needs to be challenged, where is BoatUS and other boating groups?

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

So if this is a regulation that needs to be challenged, where is BoatUS and other boating groups?

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My guess is:
1) It takes awareness - BoatUS focus is on Fed Regs and isn't as concerned w/ states (not saying totally unconcerned but focus is Feds - from experience I've communicated w/ them on another issue)
2) Priorites - they also focus on the big issues affecting many vs fewer

I wonder if they are even aware or have had requests.
Boated Lk Champlain twice - I disconnected my discharge when I brought the boat to NY so wasn't an issue - most not all that hard to disconnect a hose clamp / hose
Lk Champlain / Richleu Canal are beautiful and I would encourage anyone contemplating the trip to not let the regulation discourage them.

Our plans are (finally after 2 years of postponements) to do the Erie Canal up and Richlieu and Champlain back down this summer. The thought of having to disconnect that putrid, dripping hose before entering Champlain does not enthuse me.

Trying to think of a way of preparing for the disconnect/reconnect in advance that would be simple and clean and easy. Right now it would entail a heat gun to soften up the hose between the holding tank and the seacock, yanking off the hose and getting slimed and gagged by what's in the hose. Not to mention that now the holding tank discharge is open to the air.

woodscrew said:

I have heard and read reliable reports of dye being used in both Long Island sound and around Newport. They dump it in the head, flush,flush, flush away and woe be unto those who discharge overboard. It would be interesting to dump dye into some random toilets in NYC and see where it comes out. Just saying'.

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Depends on whether it is raining.

It's far cheaper to pass a law or regulation that affects some, thus giving the illusion of solving a problem.

Politicians get reelected every two to four years by putting on these shows.

In the meantime: the real problem, untreated waste in waters that get puts there by the bypass of the water treatment plant would cause millions to correct and affect voters by taking up more land to build the required additional storage.

So, we have clean water theater, brought to you my the same people who have your grandmother taking off her shoes at the airport.

dwhatty said:

Our plans are (finally after 2 years of postponements) to do the Erie Canal up and Richlieu and Champlain back down this summer.

Trying to think of a way of preparing for the disconnect/reconnect in advance that would be simple and clean

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Absolutely do the trip...you will love it.
Prep simple...last ok discharge zone dump & flush w "clean" water...close seacock...pull hose & have plug ready to install.
A little inconventient but worth it

Bacchus said:

Absolutely do the trip...you will love it.
Prep simple...last ok discharge zone dump & flush w "clean" water...close seacock...pull hose & have plug ready to install.
A little inconventient but worth it

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If it was me, I wouldn't disconnect the hose. I would simply secure the thru hull with a zip tie or padlock and be done with it. Unless your boat is registered in that state, you only need to comply with the Fed Government regulations.

So, you get inspected and they tell you that you are breaking the law. Are they going to arrest you? Doubt it. Are they going to impound your vessel? Doubt it. Are they going to issue you a citation? Maybe, but I certainly wouldn't pay it if I wasn't a resident of the state.

The black water hose restriction on Lake Champlain is no big deal to comply with, and it is well worth following because it is a beautiful cruising ground. It is one more piece of insurance to prevent waste from being discharged into the pristine waters. I made the point here a long time ago that gray water is not an issue on LC, but internet paranoia runs deep.

By the way, the very small areas of the Keys where there is no grey water dischrage are to protect the water clarity and sensitive coral.. not places you can or would camp out on or cruise over.

When it comes to protecting water quality, count me as a borderline enviro-nazi. Personally I want to boat in nice water, and preserve things like coral reefs and fresh water lakes. No sympathy here for those who want to use those waters as their personal human bodily waste sewers because it is more convenient for them.

caltexflanc said:

The black water hose restriction on Lake Champlain is no big deal to comply with, and it is well worth following because it is a beautiful cruising ground. It is one more piece of insurance to prevent waste from being discharged into the pristine waters. I made the point here a long time ago that gray water is not an issue on LC, but internet paranoia runs deep.

By the way, the very small areas of the Keys where there is no grey water dischrage are to protect the water clarity and sensitive coral.. not places you can or would camp out on or cruise over.

When it comes to protecting water quality, count me as a borderline enviro-nazi. Personally I want to boat in nice water, and preserve things like coral reefs and fresh water lakes. No sympathy here for those who want to use those waters as their personal human bodily waste sewers because it is more convenient for them.

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The boats are not the problem, its the science. I agree with those who say this is just a show. Until there is scientific proof that boats are the source of the pollution (most lily not) then the law need to be challenged.

For instance. I challenged the USCG Aux person who was inspecting my boat when he told me that I must have my "Y" valve secured and the circuit breaker wired in the "off" position. 33 CFR 159 "Marine Sanitation Devices" does not require this. It states

sewage may be discharged beyond 3 nautical miles )​

in a No Discharge Zone, the operator must secure the device in a​

manner that prevents any discharge. Some acceptable methods are:​

padlocking overboard discharge valves in the closed position, using​

a non-releasable wire tie to hold overboard discharge valves in the​

closed position, closing overboard discharge valves and removing​

the handle, and locking the door to the space enclosing the toilets.​

Note: these methods for preventing the overboard discharge are only​

required when operating in a No Discharge Zone. State and local laws​

may place further restrictions on overboard discharges.


My position with the inspector was that in the Columbia River which is NOT a "No Discharge Zone" the requirement to strap my "Y" valve and secure the circuit breaker is not required by federal law. His response to me was that the State of Washington/Oregon requires........I interrupted him and suggested that he was here to conduct a safety inspection IAW federal requirements, not state. He thought I had made a good point and would take it back to his command, I also got my sticker.

Not being on the east coast is this Lake everyone talking about, is it a federal navigable water way?