Joystick only, no ships wheel

. . .I have yet to ponder over a boat without some kind of questionable (often expensive) owners mod

This latest one is a Schucker that the current owner removed the wheel steering and replaced it with an autopilot that takes input from a joy stick. According to the broker there is nothing left of the original hydraulic steering. Wasn't able to get much else out over the phone other than the rudder response is almost instant.

I'm scheduled to look at it Saturday. Has anyone here heard of a kit like this? Or done anything DIY like this?

Thanks

We have auto pilot, joy stick bow thruster , joy stick rudder control and a remote to autopilot joy stick for rudder and a steering wheel to hold on to when it get rough
Guess we could have taken the wheel off but we still use it --when something goes wrong or just might
I think the new zeus pods maybe have joy sticks only

That's an interesting setup. By "joystick" do they mean some kind of follow up steering? I have been considering adding this to my boat, but would want to retain the hydraulic steering to ensure redundancy. I wouldn't want to have my only steering to be dependent on an autopilot. I can currently use my autopilot to control the rudder (buttons not a joystick) if my hydraulics failed.

Richard

Britannia said:

That's an interesting setup. By "joystick" do they mean some kind of follow up steering? I have been considering adding this to my boat, but would want to retain the hydraulic steering to ensure redundancy. I wouldn't want to have my only steering to be dependent on an autopilot. I can currently use my autopilot to control the rudder (buttons not a joystick) if my hydraulics failed.

Richard

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Agreed. I have often used my autopilot to steer, but would hate to be dependent on it.

BTW, stupid question time, what happens on a hydraulic steering system if the hydraulics fail? No rudder control I imagine? What drives the pump for the hydraulic system?

dhays said:

Agreed. I have often used my autopilot to steer, but would hate to be dependent on it.

BTW, stupid question time, what happens on a hydraulic steering system if the hydraulics fail? No rudder control I imagine? What drives the pump for the hydraulic system?

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My HyNautics steering does not use a pump. The system is pressurized to 80psi using a foot pump (bicycle fitting) and maintains that pressure for a long time (it's probably been a year since I needed to pump it.)

The "power" to turn the rudder comes from the wheel itself - so that's your actual "pump". If it fails then you're hosed. Just the same as if any mechanical pump fails you're hosed. Or electronic only for that matter. Hence the desire for redundancy.

Richard

My boat has 6 stations, only two of which have wheels, but all of which have jog levers. The wheels, which are in the pilot house and flybridge, are rarely used. The levers are faster and easier, but the wheels are a good back up in case the AP system goes down.

I have noticed that several of the crab boats on Deadliest Catch don't have wheels, just jog levers.

Greetings,
A lot of boats (trawlers) I've seen have provision in the aft cockpit for an emergency rudder. Quite straightforward on our last boat (34' Marine Trader). A bit more complicated on our current vessel but still doable. It IS an emergency after all.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
A lot of boats (trawlers) I've seen have provision in the aft cockpit for an emergency rudder. Quite straightforward on our last boat (34' Marine Trader). A bit more complicated on our current vessel but still doable. It IS an emergency after all.

Click to expand...

My boat has the access plate for an emergency tiller - though I have not managed to find one on the boat! However, it would be next to useless for me. There is zero forward visibility from the cockpit and no access to engine controls and I single hand the boat a lot. I guess in the open ocean it could be useful - I could lash it somehow and go aft for the occasional course change.

Richard

Having been out in some pretty rough seas (not necessarily by choice) I can not contemplate controlling a vessel with only a joystick. Perhaps this works on a mega vessel but on my mere 50 footer the motion can be more than enough to make controlling a joy stick while trying to remain in place at the "helm" more than challenging. Perhaps for docking or other activities but, never without a wheel!!

Next time you see Deadliest Catch count how many of those have wheels. Pretty sure its none.

To be clear, a jog lever is for a temporary operation, like a dodge. It's real simple - basically a "bang/bang" lever for left or right rudder.

A FFU (full follow up) lever is a proportional steering control - move the lever (for example) 10 degrees and leave it there, and the rudder goes to 10 degrees...and stays there.

You cannot "steer" a boat with a jog lever.


Keith

Britannia; said:

My boat has the access plate for an emergency tiller - though I have not managed to find one on the boat! However, it would be next to useless for me.

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Marin wrote about trying the one on his boat. He got down in the lazarette with the tiller while his wife took the controls and told him where to go.

Where is he by the way?

refugio said:

You cannot "steer" a boat with a jog lever.
Keith

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Why not? Simrad jog levers work differently than you describe. When the lever is turned, the rudder turns. When released, it springs back to center and the rudder stops turning, but stays where you put it. Really not much different from a wheel. By contrast, an FFU centers the rudders when you let go. That would be much harder to steer with since you couldn't let go until you are ready to have the rudders centered. On a previous boat, I had the FFU type and never really used it for steering, but was happy to have it, and therefore specified FFU for my current boat. To my surprise, Simrad didn't offer an FFU for their newer systems, so I settled for a "jog lever", with assurances that I would learn to prefer it. And sure enough, I do! (I will say that rudder indicators are necessary to know when the rudders are centered, although some professionals I have talked to insist that a "feel" for centered quickly develops.)

Chrisjs said:

Having been out in some pretty rough seas (not necessarily by choice) I can not contemplate controlling a vessel with only a joystick. Perhaps this works on a mega vessel but on my mere 50 footer the motion can be more than enough to make controlling a joy stick while trying to remain in place at the "helm" more than challenging. Perhaps for docking or other activities but, never without a wheel!!

Click to expand...

I am a little more than 50', but not enough to make much difference in the kind of heavy seas you describe. I have never been in seas so bad that my ability to use the jog lever was impaired, but I imagine that if the seas were so bad that I couldn't control the jog lever for a few seconds (it is really quick), no way could I control the wheel. That said, I think my AP will be doing most of the steering work while I handle the throttles.

I prefer a wheel. Don't want to believe I'm operating a flight simulator.

MYTraveler said:

Why not? Simrad jog levers work differently than you describe. When the lever is turned, the rudder turns. When released, it springs back to center and the rudder stops turning, but stays where you put it. Really not much different from a wheel. By contrast, an FFU centers the rudders when you let go. That would be much harder to steer with since you couldn't let go until you are ready to have the rudders centered. On a previous boat, I had the FFU type and never really used it for steering, but was happy to have it, and therefore specified FFU for my current boat. To my surprise, Simrad didn't offer an FFU for their newer systems, so I settled for a "jog lever", with assurances that I would learn to prefer it. And sure enough, I do! (I will say that rudder indicators are necessary to know when the rudders are centered, although some professionals I have talked to insist that a "feel" for centered quickly develops.)

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I have seen that referred to as Non Follow Up (NFU) steering as opposed to Full Follow Up (FFU).

Richard

My first joystick ride was delivering a 5560 Regal with Volvo pods. The owners mechanic said to use the stick for close quarters so with no practice I headed out of a harbour with many tight turns. After 30 seconds I turned off the stick and went to the wheel. The stick reaction was too fast for my liking. After another 30 seconds I went back to the stick and never used the whell at all for the next 8 days from Toronto to Duluth.

The geometry of the pods did not work at all for conventional steering in close quarters with the props being so far forward. By the end of the trip I was in love with the stick and pod drives. I then did an insurance investigation on another Regal and that put me off pods for good. Gear reduction failure (seized) damaged pod and engine .... $35k for a pod rebuild and $120k for a new engine. I saw the Volvo invoice, the bare engine block was $60k .... put me off pod drives for good. This boat was out of warranty and heavily financed, the owner walked.

Can someone describe exactly what each of those systems actually do? I am used to the Raymarine APs where I can dial in a course change and the AP will change the heading of the boat to that course. It only indirectly dictates rudder position. Is that how these work?

dhays said:

Can someone describe exactly what each of those systems actually do? I am used to the Raymarine APs where I can dial in a course change and the AP will change the heading of the boat to that course. It only indirectly dictates rudder position. Is that how these work?

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Full Follow Up is a lever that can be moved to left or right. When moved to a certain position, the rudder will move to the same angle. In the systems I have seen the lever will stay where it is put until it is moved again. So think of this as directly setting the rudder angle.

Non Follow Up has a lever that is sprung back to center position. Moving the lever either left or right will move the rudder left or right for as long as you keep the lever over to that side. If you the release the lever it will spring back to the center, but the rudder will stay in its current position.

Both systems are used in conjunction with a rudder angle indicator. Although if working properly, you can see that the FFU steering doesn't technically need one. Though there is always some lag.

Overall these are very fast ways of moving the rudder - especially on larger vessels.

Richard

dhays said:

Can someone describe exactly what each of those systems actually do? I am used to the Raymarine APs where I can dial in a course change and the AP will change the heading of the boat to that course. It only indirectly dictates rudder position. Is that how these work?

Click to expand...

And to answer your AP question: these mechanisms control the rudder directly and are not related to you course. They are in lieu of a wheel. However, they may well use the same hydraulics that the AP uses to control the rudder. In many cases they are linked to the AP so that you can set certain behaviors, such as taking over from the AP as soon as you move the FU lever for dodging or emergencies.

dhays said:

Can someone describe exactly what each of those systems actually do? I am used to the Raymarine APs where I can dial in a course change and the AP will change the heading of the boat to that course. It only indirectly dictates rudder position. Is that how these work?

Click to expand...

I can tell you how the jog levers on my Simrad AP work. First, if AP is engaged, they are ineffective unless the AP is first disengaged -- exactly like the wheel: turning it is immediately corrected by the AP, unless the AP is disengaged. When the AP is not engaged, the rudders can be in any position, but regardless of their position, the jog lever will move the rudders in the direction the job lever is moved. The further the jog lever is moved, the faster the rudders turn in that direction. Letting go of the jog lever centers the jog lever but not the rudders. That is where a rudder angle indicator comes in -- again just like a wheel. If you want the boat to go straight, you have to center the rudders (or engage the AP). The only difference with Follow Up systems is that the rudders center when the jog lever is released and (since it is spring loaded) returns to center. I have come to prefer the no follow up.

MYTraveler said:

... The only difference with Follow Up systems is that the rudders center when the jog lever is released and (since it is spring loaded) returns to center. I have come to prefer the no follow up.

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Interesting - the Simrad FU80 manual states (emphasis is mine)

The FU lever can be rotated 70° to port and starboard from mid-
position. The lever will remain in set position, and the commanded
rudder angle/heading change maintained until the lever is returned
to mid-position

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Has that not been your experience?

I think I want an FU system but would not want the center spring loading.

Richard

Britannia said:

Interesting - the Simrad FU80 manual states (emphasis is mine)



Has that not been your experience?

I think I want an FU system but would not want the center spring loading.

Richard

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Not my experience. That is exactly what I had before and what I wanted when I commissioned my boat. At the time, my AP system was the latest offering by Simrad (sorry, I don't remember the model number) and that type of jog lever was not available (per my escalated conversations with their tech support), and would not be offered since Simrad considered the non-FU to be superior. As I recall, my previous system (prior boat) was also spring loaded, which I liked, but I suspect I could have hacked the spring.



I just checked out Simrad's site. I do not believe that the FU 80 was available when I purchased my equipment, but I probably would have purchased it, instead of the S35 (which looks like what I have), if it had been.

MYTraveler said:

...
I just checked out Simrad's site. I do not believe that the FU 80 was available when I purchased my equipment, but I probably would have purchased it, instead of the S35 (which looks like what I have), if it had been.

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Interesting - well maybe they listened to you? That's the one I think I'll get when I upgrade.

Richard

The wheel makes an excellent handle for both hands while it is rough. You can steady yourself and make steering corrections at the same time. Can't see hanging onto a joystick to steady yourself without giving steering inputs. No such problem with a wheel.

MYTraveler said:

Not my experience. That is exactly what I had before and what I wanted when I commissioned my boat. At the time, my AP system was the latest offering by Simrad (sorry, I don't remember the model number) and that type of jog lever was not available (per my escalated conversations with their tech support), and would not be offered since Simrad considered the non-FU to be superior. As I recall, my previous system (prior boat) was also spring loaded, which I liked, but I suspect I could have hacked the spring.



I just checked out Simrad's site. I do not believe that the FU 80 was available when I purchased my equipment, but I probably would have purchased it, instead of the S35 (which looks like what I have), if it had been.

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It would appear both types exist. Until this discussion, I was only away of follow up controls that stay in whatever position you leave them in, i.e. no spring back to center. The Simrad FU80, all the Furuno FU controls, Jastram, and Kobalt all hold their position. The idea with a FU is that the rudder follows the controls position. Wherever you place the control, the rudder follows to that position. It's essentially a power assisted tiller.

Personally I love the FU controls for maneuvering. The AP pump can swing the rudder MUCH faster than I can with the wheel.

But I'm also not ready to give up a wheel. When steering down a tight fairway or channel, for example, I find I can hold my desired course better with the wheel. The FU control is too sensitive. I'm sure I'd get used to it, but I still find myself grabbing the wheel.

That said, I do know a couple of people who have removed their wheels. They still have them and they could be reinstalled in an emergency, but they are never used in normal operation. I'm not there yet.

I have used both Simrad FU50 and FU25 follow-up steering levers and neither are spring loaded. I use the lever almost exclusively when hand steering. I find it much easier than 5-1/2 turns on the wheel, but it did take some getting used to.

Pretty soon fully computerized navigation devices will be usual equip on pleasure boats. They will get so sophisticated, so intensely in tuned with AP, engines, trans, fuel lines and the like that all needed by the captain is to sleep strapped in bunk... till robot aboard wakes him/her after "putter" docks boat at chosen destination.


To me that ain't boating. Steering wheel with throttle and shift handle is!

Art said:

...
To me that ain't boating. Steering wheel with throttle and shift handle is!

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So you don't have an autopilot? I find no pleasure in hand steering for hours on end. Might as well just stand out in the rain, cold and wind and still have my sailboat

refugio said:

To be clear, a jog lever is for a temporary operation, like a dodge. It's real simple - basically a "bang/bang" lever for left or right rudder.

A FFU (full follow up) lever is a proportional steering control - move the lever (for example) 10 degrees and leave it there, and the rudder goes to 10 degrees...and stays there.

You cannot "steer" a boat with a jog lever.


Keith

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Jog levers are standard equipment on commercial boats. I haven't been on a tug with a wheel in at least 25 years. I have also never steered with Full follow up, only use non follow up. You most certainly can "steer" a boat with a jog lever, or else I have been doing it wrong for 30 plus years.