New Outboard

BTW, I have a nice 28 horsepower 1961 Mercury 200 Super Hurricane (one of the "white Mercs") that I'd sell to one of you guys who REALLY loves his vintage two strokes. Unrestored and actually runs quite well. Art? It's definitely "romantic"!

ERIC

BandB said:

Wifey B: Guess your definition of "romantic" is far different than mine. I don't like stinky.

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Yo... Wifey - Don't you recognize tongue n' cheek?? LOL

kraftee said:

BTW, I have a nice 28 horsepower 1961 Mercury 200 Super Hurricane (one of the "white Mercs") that I'd sell to one of you guys who REALLY loves his vintage two strokes. Unrestored and actually runs quite well. Art? It's definitely "romantic"!

ERIC

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Taint nutten romantic bout them ol' Mercs! Ran way too hot, burned up their innards. I was strictly a Johnson/Evinrude guy... back when...

I challenge those who claim the new small four strokes are better. I ran a buds 9.8 Tohatsu that I think is two years old. Hard to pull start, shakes the boat, heavy and the carb plugged up. I cleaned the carb and it looked spotless inside, but there must have been a little chunk hiding in a jet somewhere. Drilled out the anti-tamper plug so mixture could be tweaked, that helped dial it in a bit better.

I don't like two stroke stink, but take all the pros and cons and lump them together, I still rather have a 10hp two stroke. The amount of pollution from these things is trivial when viewed in perspective. They are not run in inner city Los Angeles like leaf blowers are.

Am I correct... having heard... that 2 stroke o/b engines run cleaner (i.e. burn oil laden gasoline more efficiently) when revved to higher rpm, especially when under load? And, that the unburned fuel/oil smoke emitted when same engine is on idle with no load is not representative of the cleaner operations while engine is under load/use for increased boat speed. This seems logical.


If increased efficiency as I mention above is true - can anyone provide the stats on increased efficiency ratio when 2 stroke engine is in use for propulsion-load and simply not sitting at idle with no load?

Can't give stats, but remember, ONLY two-strokes have "oil laden gasoline". Four strokes keep their lubricating oil in their crankcases and out of the combustion chamber.

Art said:

Am I correct... having heard... that 2 stroke o/b engines run cleaner (i.e. burn oil laden gasoline more efficiently) when revved to higher rpm, especially when under load? And, that the unburned fuel/oil smoke emitted when same engine is on idle with no load is not representative of the cleaner operations while engine is under load/use for increased boat speed. This seems logical.


If increased efficiency as I mention above is true - can anyone provide the stats on increased efficiency ratio when 2 stroke engine is in use for propulsion-load and simply not sitting at idle with no load?

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This would be true for older 2-strokes or smaller 2 strokes. Modern Electronic DFI 2 strokes like the new evenrude are incredibly clean burning even at idle and actually in overall economy edge out the 4 strokes.

kraftee said:

Can't give stats, but remember, ONLY two-strokes have "oil laden gasoline". Four strokes keep their lubricating oil in their crankcases and out of the combustion chamber.

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Duh! - LOL

Less of course the 4 stroke oil ring breaks - and - of course when oil needs to be changed!

Two strokes even at power do not burn clean. The fuel/air charge used to scavenge the cylinder ends up with a good bit getting out the exhaust ports. The extra fuel they use over a four stroke is a good measure of the unburned fuel going out the exhaust.

Not an issue with direct injected twos like ETEC, Optimax and HPDI. Those the fuel is injected after the exhaust ports are closed.

devorenm said:

This would be true for older 2-strokes or smaller 2 strokes. Modern Electronic DFI 2 strokes like the new evenrude are incredibly clean burning even at idle and actually in overall economy edge out the 4 strokes.

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Interesting. Then lets go a step further...

With DFI (and other new design) 2 stroke outboard engines incredibly clean burning: What is their emissions ratio compared to same size 4 stroke outboard?

Oil Usage Numbers Game; i.e., "2 stroke - vs - 4 stroke":

2 stroke with 50 to 1 oil to gasoline ratio mixture burns approx 1 qt to 6 gallons. Notice I used the word burns... which means the oil (mixed with gas) becomes part of the energy producing fuel mix. Therefore, if DFI 2 stroke engine is efficient enough the oil with gas mix may represent a best case scenario for helping to maintain environmental cleanliness??

- - on the other hand - -

4 stroke with oil in crankcase needs to have oil changed on certain number hour usage. That old oil needs to be dealt with in some potentially polluting way. Therefore, the 4 stroke engine may not represent a best case scenario for helping to maintain environmental cleanliness??

Answers - Anyone??

Tohatsu 20

I love the smell of two stroke in the morning. Cold morning clearing the windows of dew, warming up the outboard. Love the horse power to weight ratio, my ability to fix on the run , the reliability. But they be getting old, the seals are gettin brittle, the parts are getting hard to find and expensive.

I rebuilt my last one a couple of years ago , 35 Evinrude 90's era.
I managed another 6 months, before a seal let go , would run great if you could get it fired up.

I really wanted the new E Tech 30 , back to that horse power . weight deal. But one computer fail and a limited warranty scared me off.

Ended up with a Tohatsu 20 hp long shaft in March of 2015. Dollar for dollar I could buy two for the coast of the 25, 30 E tech. Plus the Tohatsu has a 5 year warranty and is sound older tech ( kinda ). Assembled in Texas , along with being labeled by other manufacturers, helps with service , and parts.

I beat the crap out of this little motor, and love the electric start. Tangle rope in the prop, over dead heads, grind the prop through sand and gravel, used in freezing weather, etc etc. I am happy after the first year. I hope to get a couple out of it. Sure I miss the power, but it gets the job done just fine, and the fuel consumption is sweet.

My 2 cents

Ski in NC said:

I challenge those who claim the new small four strokes are better. I ran a buds 9.8 Tohatsu that I think is two years old. Hard to pull start, shakes the boat, heavy and the carb plugged up. I cleaned the carb and it looked spotless inside, but there must have been a little chunk hiding in a jet somewhere. Drilled out the anti-tamper plug so mixture could be tweaked, that helped dial it in a bit better.

I don't like two stroke stink, but take all the pros and cons and lump them together, I still rather have a 10hp two stroke. The amount of pollution from these things is trivial when viewed in perspective. They are not run in inner city Los Angeles like leaf blowers are.

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Roger that, Ski

Art said:

Yo... Wifey - Don't you recognize tongue n' cheek?? LOL

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Wifey B: Don't you?

BandB said:

Wifey B: Don't you?

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Don't you?

This could go on forever!!

Wifey B: Four Strokes.

Art said:

Interesting. Then lets go a step further...

With DFI (and other new design) 2 stroke outboard engines incredibly clean burning: What is their emissions ratio compared to same size 4 stroke outboard?

Oil Usage Numbers Game; i.e., "2 stroke - vs - 4 stroke":

2 stroke with 50 to 1 oil to gasoline ratio mixture burns approx 1 qt to 6 gallons. Notice I used the word burns... which means the oil (mixed with gas) becomes part of the energy producing fuel mix. Therefore, if DFI 2 stroke engine is efficient enough the oil with gas mix may represent a best case scenario for helping to maintain environmental cleanliness??

- - on the other hand - -

4 stroke with oil in crankcase needs to have oil changed on certain number hour usage. That old o il needs to be dealt with in some potentially polluting way. Therefore, the 4 stroke engine may not represent a best case scenario for helping to maintain environmental cleanliness??

Answers - Anyone??

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DFI two stroke injects the oil into the crankcase where it can lube the bearings and underside of the pistons. The fuel is injected after the ports close so no fuel lost. But a good bit of oil is lost out the ports much like the fuel/oil mix was lost out the ports on an old carb two stroke. The crankcase oil mist becomes part of the scavenging air used to chase exhaust out. So not as clean as a four stroke as far as HC emissions into the air or water.

But it is such a small amount of oil that I think it is not a big deal. There are bacteria in sea water that eat oil. Free lunch for the critters, I guess.

BandB said:

Wifey B: Four Strokes.

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Like often said... Three strokes, and ..."You're Out!"

Ski in NC said:

DFI two stroke injects the oil into the crankcase where it can lube the bearings and underside of the pistons. The fuel is injected after the ports close so no fuel lost. But a good bit of oil is lost out the ports much like the fuel/oil mix was lost out the ports on an old carb two stroke. The crankcase oil mist becomes part of the scavenging air used to chase exhaust out. So not as clean as a four stroke as far as HC emissions into the air or water.

But it is such a small amount of oil that I think it is not a big deal. There are bacteria in sea water that eat oil. Free lunch for the critters, I guess.

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Sooo... 4 stroker o/b's could experience a "consta-oil-change" by constantly letting tiny amount of old crank case oil vaporize into "atmo-water"; letting oil eating critters have even more food. Then, the 4 stroke engines could simply have one gallon containers of oil with suction tube attached so small amounts of new oil always replaces the old vaporized oil. Oh what a wonderful deal! Never again would o/b oil change residue need to clog our Planet Earth!

My Evinrude e-tech (40) was delivered w the oil injection system set at 50-1. After break-in I was supposed to go to the dealer to have the injection system set to 100-1. I've run a lot of 2strokes and believe generally 40-1 for air cooled engines and 50-1 for water cooled engines is ideal. Some synthetic oil can be run at less than 50-1 but not dino oiled engines. With that knowledge or belief I decided the e-tech wasn't lubricated sufficently at the ratio of 100-1. So when it came time to have my engine adjusted to 100-1 .... I passed. It's my opinion that the only way the DFI 2-strokes can meet emission requirements is to lube them at the 100-1 level. It's my opnion that if it were legal the DFI's would all be sold and run at 50-1. I'm not saying your DFI OB will fail at 100-1 but I do belive 100-1 is on the raggid edge of lubrication well done.

manyboats said:

My Evinrude e-tech (40) was delivered w the oil injection system set at 50-1. After break-in I was supposed to go to the dealer to have the injection system set to 100-1. I've run a lot of 2strokes and believe generally 40-1 for air cooled engines and 50-1 for water cooled engines is ideal. Some synthetic oil can be run at less than 50-1 but not dino oiled engines. With that knowledge or belief I decided the e-tech wasn't lubricated sufficently at the ratio of 100-1. So when it came time to have my engine adjusted to 100-1 .... I passed. It's my opinion that the only way the DFI 2-strokes can meet emission requirements is to lube them at the 100-1 level. It's my opnion that if it were legal the DFI's would all be sold and run at 50-1. I'm not saying your DFI OB will fail at 100-1 but I do belive 100-1 is on the raggid edge of lubrication well done.

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I agree.

MOF, on the many 2 stroke o/b's I've owned, I usually go a bit stiffer on oil to gas ratio. 45 to 1 is generally where I run them. Never had one blow up and noticed no extra clog-up on plugs.

The problem with ethanol isn't environmental, but comes when the engine is stored for an extended time. Things get all gummed up and the gum is difficult, if not impossible to get rid of. In order to avoid that issue, I have switched, as much as I can, to non-ethanol gas. Unfortunately, it is not always available, so in the last tankful before storage, I now use Sea Foam. Not a perfect solution either, but better than sacrificing the engine to ethanol induced gummy failures.
In my car that the owner's manual says "use regular gas", I did a 1500 mile each leg experiment with regular (E-10) and premium (E-0). for less than 10% higher cost for premium, I got more than a 10% improvement in economy. I won't go back to regular.

koliver said:

The problem with ethanol isn't environmental, but comes when the engine is stored for an extended time. Things get all gummed up and the gum is difficult, if not impossible to get rid of. In order to avoid that issue, I have switched, as much as I can, to non-ethanol gas. Unfortunately, it is not always available, so in the last tankful before storage, I now use Sea Foam. Not a perfect solution either, but better than sacrificing the engine to ethanol induced gummy failures.
In my car that the owner's manual says "use regular gas", I did a 1500 mile each leg experiment with regular (E-10) and premium (E-0). for less than 10% higher cost for premium, I got more than a 10% improvement in economy. I won't go back to regular.

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Are you sure its E0? My understanding was that almost all premium fuel is also E-10 because its an easy way to increase the octane. I use premium in my car because I can get significantly improved fuel economy but I believe its because I drive a small 1.4l turbocharged engine which when its warm has to retard the timing to prevent knock on regular 87.

In the old days (1962) when I was in the Navy in SanDiego I had a nice Chevy convertable and loved to go driving on the weekends. Often I didn't have cash for fuel. But often I'd have two cans of OB mix (24-1 in those days) on the boat so would but the 12 gallons of 24-1 in the Chevy .. and then do fun in the sun.

As little as two years ago I'd dump my old gas in OB tanks into my 85 Suburban and mix new for the boat. Never had a dirty plug or smoke or any other problem running the two stroke mix fuel in autos. Just had some upper cyl lubricant. My Suburban now (87) has fuel injection and I haven't dumped any mix in it. Put it in Chris's 72 Chevy PU truck though.


koliver,
I wonder how many variables you overlooked like denser air in the am ect ect. Did you do it three times?
I've heard that more than several times so I'm a little predisposed to believe it but still the sceptical.

Non used gas engines will usually have carb problems in time.

A vastly shorter time if the fuel has been ethanol poisoned .

My Honda 6KW 6010 noisemaker was out of commission for 5 years , while an engine swap was being done in our bus conversion.

Being lazy , lots to take off besides the carb to get it off , I decides to try "Better Living thru Chemistry"

Sea Foam 50-50 with gasoline was used to fill the carb 3 times with a few hours of wait before draining.

Happily it worked , little effort , minor expanse .

For very intermitiant use Propane is the fuel of choice.

But this trick might get an outboard operating with luck.

FF,
Yes Sea Foam is good. I'll try that on my 6hp 70's Johnson. There's stuff in the way of that carb too. I'm the luckiest of all sun signs so the luck is almost in the bag .. is "in the bag" a bird hunter's expression?

manyboats said:

FF,
Yes Sea Foam is good. I'll try that on my 6hp 70's Johnson. There's stuff in the way of that carb too. I'm the luckiest of all sun signs so the luck is almost in the bag .. is "in the bag" a bird hunter's expression?

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SeaFoam is good, rather mild though... in comparison to Chem-Tool, which works really quickly and completely. IMO

manyboats said:

FF,
Yes Sea Foam is good. I'll try that on my 6hp 70's Johnson. There's stuff in the way of that carb too. I'm the luckiest of all sun signs so the luck is almost in the bag .. is "in the bag" a bird hunter's expression?

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It's a 1920's baseball expression.

Capt. Jon said:

It's a 1920's baseball expression.

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Every expression over time either started out as a baseball expression or somehow they took it in and over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats
FF,
Yes Sea Foam is good. I'll try that on my 6hp 70's Johnson. There's stuff in the way of that carb too. I'm the luckiest of all sun signs so the luck is almost in the bag .. is "in the bag" a bird hunter's expression?

Capt. Jon said:

It's a 1920's baseball expression.

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All this time I figured it was/is a bank robber's order! :lol:

"koliver,
I wonder how many variables you overlooked like denser air in the am ect ect. Did you do it three times?" Eric

Didn't do it 3x. I don't know what variables I missed.
I do know that my mileage has never been worse than when I filled at a Mohawk station, before ethanol was mandated, but Mohawk put it into their gas. The difference was shocking, so bad that no other explanation was available, and returned to normal mileage when I got my next fill at a brand that didn't then use ethanol.
Now I always look on the pump to see what % ethanol they use, especially in premium gas. Chevron 94 is the best, but not always available. Other stations usually say that their regular contains "up to 10% ethanol" but are frequently silent as to the ethanol content of premium. Occasionally I find premium that says "no ethanol".