Carbon Monoxide

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markpierce

Master and Commander
Joined
Sep 25, 2010
Messages
12,557
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Carquinez Coot
Vessel Make
penultimate Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Carbon monoxide is heavier then air, isn't it?

I've been thinking of where to place carbon monoxide detectors on the*under-construction Carquinez Coot.* Its interior*has three separate parts: the forward cabin (master stateroom), pilothouse, and saloon containing galley and dinette which can convert into a berth.* The forward cabin is the lowest.* It's floor is a couple of feet below waterline.* The saloon's floor is about a foot below waterline.* The pilothouse, which is above the engineroom, has its floor about three feet above the waterline.* None of the three living spaces are separated by solid bulkheads.

I'm thinking that two CO detectors will be needed: one in the forward cabin and one in the saloon.* I'd think that the CO detectors should be below where one's head would be laying while sleeping in either location.

Feedback please.* Thanks!
 
markpierce wrote:Carbon monoxide is heavier then air, isn't it?


I've been thinking of where to place carbon monoxide detectors ...
No, CO is not heavier than air.

I'm thinking you should be very afraid of asking that sort of question on this site. There are gurus here who will happily provide advice that can kill you.

Those same folks will be pissed off because I mentioned that fact.

It is obvious you are very new to powerboats and the "Coot" represents a quantum leap in your nautical adventure so take one last bit of unsolicited advice and learn to do your own research, especially when it involves safety and health issues or the maintenance of expensive equipment.

*
 
Ummm Rick, maybe that's a little bit too strongly worded reply to markpierce's post. You make me feel that I have wondered into 'Off the Deep End' by mistake.
 
That's just Rickbee. According to him, everybody on this forum is a dumbass except for him. But now to recommend people don't use the forum?
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Keith wrote:But now to recommend people don't use the forum?
"There are gurus here who will happily provide advice that can kill you."
"learn to do your own research, especially when it involves safety and health issues or the maintenance of expensive equipment."

"Those same folks will be pissed off because I mentioned that fact"


I should have added that there are many "gurus" who have reading comprehension problems as well. If anyone can find a recommendation to not use the forum I would like to see it.

It looks to me like each statement is very much to the point and very accurate, particularly the prediction ... and if you are going to claim special knowledge of what I think about everybody, that would be the real dumbass position.
 
markpierce wrote:

Carbon monoxide is heavier then air, isn't it?

I've been thinking of where to place carbon monoxide detectors on the*under-construction Carquinez Coot.* Its interior*has three separate parts: the forward cabin (master stateroom), pilothouse, and saloon containing galley and dinette which can convert into a berth.* The forward cabin is the lowest.* It's floor is a couple of feet below waterline.* The saloon's floor is about a foot below waterline.* The pilothouse, which is above the engineroom, has its floor about three feet above the waterline.* None of the three living spaces are separated by solid bulkheads.

I'm thinking that two CO detectors will be needed: one in the forward cabin and one in the saloon.* I'd think that the CO detectors should be below where one's head would be laying while sleeping in either location.

Feedback please.* Thanks!
use the instructions that come with one of the "marine" CO units regarding mounting ... it has passed the scrutiny of their engineers and lawyers
HOLLYWOOD

*
 
Coot - have you identified the potential sources of CO on your new build? This is step one (there are more).

Because CO monitors are so cheap and your vessel small, get an extra or two in addition to those that you strategically place. For two (there are more) of your reference points check AYBC and*go to a boat show and see what Selene, NT, AT and Nordhavn have done on their pilot house vessels.

In support of RickB, take all this advice you have received on the Coot for what you paid the Forum advisers.
 
I see this forum as a place to come and have a discussion among a group of folks with similar interests.* I would not take what I read here as the final truth, any more than I would having the same discussion at the yacht club bar. Anywhere you go and discuss some aspect of boating, you'll get lots of free advice, some good, some not so good.* Everyone has an opinion, some just have a higher opinion of themselves, and need to stroke their ego in public.* It's a shame we can't all converse in a civil mannor and get our point across without finger pointing, or name calling.* One of the things I like about T/F is the lack of personal attacks (for the most part).* It's one reason I never I never go to OTDE.
We can all improve our communication skills in one form or another.* One way is to read whay you have written, and ask, if someone said that about me, would I be offended? If the answere is a possible yes, re-writing to remove personal aspects will go a long ways to removing the ego from a post, unless your point IS to offend, then OTDE might be a better place to go....................Arctic Traveller
 
I have a friend who nearly died due to the exhaust on her generator creeping in the bedroom window from outside her home. It just occurred to me that a neighbor boat with a generator running could do the same. I think I'll get my detector mounted.
 
Arctic Traveller wrote:I would not take what I read here as the final truth, any more than I would having the same discussion at the yacht club bar...... some just have a higher opinion of themselves, and need to stroke their ego in public.* It's a shame we can't all converse in a civil mannor and get our point across without finger pointing, or name calling.
Well said.

*
 
Arctic Traveller wrote:It's a shame we can't all converse in a civil mannor and get our point across without finger pointing, or name calling.*
Yes, you are right. It's a shame that*someone had to come back with finger pointing and name calling rather than useful advice.

*
 
A forum like this is a great place to share experiences, some of which may impart some knowledge, and it's a great place to get opinions that may help you narrow a search. For example, what kind of low-horsepower outboard is a good choice for a dinghy, what sort of anchor is most effective in weedy bottoms, what kind of refrigerators are the most reliable, and so on.

But when it comes to things that will either cost you money (and what doesn't) or, even more important, affect your health, my feeling is that, regardless of what sort of advice and commentary one gets on a forum, go to the professionals. Want to know if Awlgrip should be waxed or not? Call Awlgrip. Want to know if equalizing is the best thing to do for your particular battery and electrical setup? Talk to your local marine electrician or shop or call the battery manufacturer if you can find out who it is.* Want to know if you can use synthetic oil in your almost-40-year-old-diesel? Talk to your local diesel shop or someone in the marine engine manufacturing industry. Want to know what the best prop diameter and pitch is for your boat? Talk to a prop shop.

There is more effort in doing this than in simply reading and following free advice on a forum. You have to make the effort to determine that the professional you are consulting is reputable, has real experience, can be trusted, and has a track record of being right.

This is not to say that the advice someone gives on a forum isn't correct, or is always wrong. There are some very knowledgeable people on most boating forums. But I don't know them personally, I've never had them to work on my boat, and nothing anyone on these forums say is backed up by any sort of warranty. If you act on their advice and whatever it is that you do or buy turns out not work as advertised, or worse, damages your boat or your health, you have no recourse whatsoever. You're solely responsible for fixing whatever problem occurred.

In the case of questions about CO, on-board propane systems, and anything else that can have a direct effect on one's health, I would NEVER act on the advice given by anyone on an internet forum. The advice or opinion may give me reason to seek out more information, and it may prompt me to contact a health professional or a marine systems professional to determine if we, indeed, had a potential problem. And if we did, what they recommended as best way to alleviate the problem. But the nature of the problem and the best solution(s) should come from someone who is professionally experienced in the field, and whose advice, recommendation, and work is backed by some sort of warranty, implied or written.

To the response I have heard from some people--- that boating is so expensive any free advice about things I can do myself will save me money--- I say that if boating is so expensive one cannot afford to maintain a boat--- and ensure their health--- by using professional services when the consequences of NOT using professional services are potentially dangerous or economically ruinous, I say that person perhaps shouldn't be boating. Or should be boating in a more affordable manner.

I've been accused of quoting or paraphrasing in my posts what I hear from other people .* The accusers have implied or said that this is meaningless information since it didn't come directly from my own boating experience.* Leaving aside the fact this attitude pretty much negates the value of school, I do this because when it comes to anything important about our boat or our boating--- and pretty much everything we do to or with the boat is important--- I try to find out as much about it as I can directly from professionals if it has to do with our boat's systems, maintenance, or repair, or directly from very experienced cruisers we know (like Carey) when it comes to things like running and maneuvering a boat.*

This information always proves to be very valuable, so I pass it on where I think it's approrpriate.* BUT..... I certainly don't expect anyone to follow my advice, even if that advice is a direct quote from a mechanic or marine electrician I know.* I expect people on a forum to read my advice (if it even interests them) and then follow through with confirming or disproving it with professionals be it Bob Smith at American Diesel, customer service specialist at Force 10, Peter Smith at Rocna, the owner of your local marine electric shop, etc.




-- Edited by Marin on Monday 14th of February 2011 01:25:27 PM
 
CO poisonings from engines are almost always gas and not diesel related. In the many underground mines I have worked, diesel engines are common for many reasons, one of which is they are less lethal*due to their burn cycle, off gas and different fuel than a gas engine.

This does not mean that CO detectors are not needed on diesel boats. My concern is as much for my diesel heater*as my 3 engines,
 
FWIW, my combo smoke/Co detectors are located on the Saloon ceiling and below on the ceiling in the hall centered between the staterooms, heads and engine room hatch. I can't recall if there is one on the PH ceiling - I seem to recall there is. When I had my RV the only time mine ever went off was from a neighbor's genset.

Dave
 
Old Stone wrote:


**The views expressed above are not intended as advice, gospel, must be followed, etc.** Are we going to have to say that to every comment we make????
CarlFollowing your lead, I have changed my signature. Let me know if you think this will pass legal muster.*
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The views, opinions, impressions, understanding above are simply that, and should not be considered to be correct, politically correct, remotely correct, or in any sense possible, practical, feasible, etc.. All of my writings should be considered only for their entertainment value, and will likely be found by most to lack in that area as well.



-- Edited by Carey on Monday 14th of February 2011 02:56:35 PM
 
Seems that most people responding don't know where to install a CO detector.

Carbon monoxide fills up a room from the top down, so closer to the ceiling may be a better location.

Where have you installed yours?
 
I installed mine about 1' from the headliner in the forward cabin.*

I bought a marine one (don't no why but it was pretty pricey) the instructions suggested near the overhead in cabins where you sleep.

It is not real loud (during testing) so I am glad it is close to the berths.

JohnP
 
markpierce wrote:

Seems that most people responding don't know where to install a CO detector.
This is a radical concept, I realize, but you could ask the manufacturer of a CO detector where it should be located.* I bet some of them even have their installation instructions on their websites.* Since they designed it my guess is that they have a pretty good idea how it works, which by inference may mean that they know where it should be placed.* This is all just speculation, I realize, but the odds are certainly there in favor of the manufacturer knowing where it should go.* Worth a try, maybe.....


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Yesterday a U.S. Power Squadron instructor told me that CO was lighter than air.* That's why I brought up the question.* I'm now thinking of getting three detectors: one for each interior part of the boat.* I'll read the instructions when I get the units.
 
sunchaser wrote:

CO poisonings from engines are almost always gas and not diesel related. In the many underground mines I have worked, diesel engines are common for many reasons, one of which is they are less lethal*due to their burn cycle, off gas and different fuel than a gas engine.

This does not mean that CO detectors are not needed on diesel boats. My concern is as much for my diesel heater*as my 3 engines,
This ignoramous (me) would think any open flame is a source.* A propane stove should be a plentiful source of CO.* So would exhaust from an IC engine: diesel, gasoline, or whatever.

*
 
My factory installed CO detector is on the ceiling. My boat is ABYC compliant. So I would ignorantly assume that it is in the correct location.

Marin, your houseboat reference...is slightly off or incomplete. That particular make of houseboat had a little "cave compartment" underneath the swim platform. IOW, you had to go under water and then surface into it to access it. Obviously, this is quite attractive to most kids who have a little "explorer" in them. Well this particular manufacturer also chose to exhaust the generator into this compartment....I will continue my post below in all CAPS!!!!

I WANT TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS THIS. ALL IT TAKES IS ONE BREATH OF CO...AND IF IT IS CONCENTRATED ENOUGH......JUST ONE BREATH CAN KILL YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Many people think that it takes prolonged exposure to CO in order for it to be insidiously deadly. That is often the case in lower concentrations. But in this houseboat example, since the gases had nowhere to go, the concentrations were extremely deadly and these kids were surfacing and taking one breath and that is all she wrote.....ONE BREATH!!!!! And there is absolutely nothing anybody can do at that point. The hemoglobin is basically completely "occupied" and there is nothing you can do to detach the CO from the hemoglobin to allow oxygen innto the system.

And most of us know that the hemoglobin in the blood has an affinity for CO over 02....I think I remember something like 50x more but I have no clue if that is correct but you get the point.

ANOTHER THING SOME DON'T REALIZE IS THAT THE CO WILL REMAIN IN THE BLOOD FOR A VERY LONG TIME....DAYS!!!!! SO IF THE CONCENTRATION IS A DEADLY ONE, YOU ARE TOAST!!!!....while pure oxygen can help in some cases(lower concetrations), if there is enough CO "monopolizing" the hemoglobin, no amount of pure oxygen is gonna help.

As far as the rest of the bull**** on here, thanks for governing yourselves. Y'all are a very fine bunch of folks!!!....and I mean that sincerely!!!!!
 
Also.....unfortunately, there have been many cases where the generator exhaust of one boat migrated into another boat and killed someone. This is why I absolutely refuse to raft up to any gas boat running a generator.
 
Baker wrote:I WANT TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS THIS. ALL IT TAKES IS ONE BREATH OF CO...AND IF IT IS CONCENTRATED ENOUGH......JUST ONE BREATH CAN KILL YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jack Kevorkian found it to be very effective.*
 
hollywood8118 wrote:
*
use the instructions that come with one of the "marine" CO units regarding mounting ... it has passed the scrutiny of their engineers and lawyers


It's a lot to expect people who ask questions on a boating forum to read the instructions that came with your equipment.**
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Any piece of safety equipment you buy, for your home, car, boat, or whatever will have instructions for its use.* Both the smoke detector and CO detector I bought for my boat had multiple pages of instructions in several languages.

*
 
RickB wrote:

*
Baker wrote:I WANT TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS THIS. ALL IT TAKES IS ONE BREATH OF CO...AND IF IT IS CONCENTRATED ENOUGH......JUST ONE BREATH CAN KILL YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jack Kevorkian found it to be very effective.*
*



Yep...definitely a good example....although he likely went with a more "insidious" approach I would think....for humanatarian reasons.
 
Baker wrote:

My factory installed CO detector is on the ceiling. My boat is ABYC compliant. So I would ignorantly assume that it is in the correct location.

ANOTHER THING SOME DON'T REALIZE IS THAT THE CO WILL REMAIN IN THE BLOOD FOR A VERY LONG TIME....DAYS!!!!! SO IF THE CONCENTRATION IS A DEADLY ONE, YOU ARE TOAST!!!!....while pure oxygen can help in some cases(lower concetrations), if there is enough CO "monopolizing" the hemoglobin, no amount of pure oxygen is gonna help.
Interesting thing.* Our boats are built by the same folks.* The one in my Salon is mounted close to the ceiling as you stated.* The one in the Forward stateroom is mounted about half way up the bulkhead which makes it just above head level when you are lying on the bed.

As far as blood concentrations goes when I was younger and working in a garage which was closed up due to the cold weather outside we ran a hose out under the garage overhead door.* But if the wind was wrong it would blow half or more back in.* One time when they did a blood test the Veterinarian that I was going to remarked that the amount of concentration I had was considered high for most but due to what I did for a living he said that it was not unusual for it to be high for car mechanics.* Of course in those days the Carb Cleaner bucket had Carbolic Acid in it (and it worked) and brake shoes and pads*had Asbestos in them as did the clutch plates.

Maybe that explains me being a Democrat.* Just kidding.

*
 
Baker wrote:

Marin, your houseboat reference...is slightly off or incomplete.
John--- Just to keep the minutes of the meeting accurate, the houseboat reference was Carl's, not mine.

*
 
Marin wrote:

*
Baker wrote:

Marin, your houseboat reference...is slightly off or incomplete.
John--- Just to keep the minutes of the meeting accurate, the houseboat reference was Carl's, not mine.

*

*



Thanks...sorry bout dat!!!
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"Seems that most people responding don't know where to install a CO detector."

????*
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"Carbon monoxide fills up a room from the top down, so closer to the ceiling may be a better location."



Oh darn, they must have gotten a dose of CO and stopped backpedaling.


-- Edited by RickB on Monday 14th of February 2011 06:28:37 PM
 
RickB wrote:

"Seems that most people responding don't know where to install a CO detector."

????*
confuse.gif


"Carbon monoxide fills up a room from the top down, so closer to the ceiling may be a better location."



Oh darn, they must have gotten a dose of CO and stopped backpedaling.


-- Edited by RickB on Monday 14th of February 2011 06:28:37 PM
hopefully now everyone knows to install the CO detector high on the flybridge...
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*
 

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