Cetol vs Epifanes

I've done some reading on this subject and it seems that folks can be very passionate one way or another. I'm not looking for an argument, but some experienced feedback based on my situation and experience level.

My new to me boat has some exterior wood, primarily rails around the aft deck, steps to the flybridge, and doors to the salon. The existing varnish has spots where it's completely worn through, so I will need to strip and reapply some type of stain or varnish. I don't live on the coast and my boat sits under a covered slip, so sun and salt damage shouldn't be an issue.

I have used sikkins cetol on a teak swim platform that I redid a few years ago on my old boat and it turned out pretty nice, but I don't really have any other experience. I've read that epiphanes are the bees knees, but I don't know that for a fact and I'm not sure that my product application would do it justice if it really is all that.

So, is there really a difference? Is application that much more difficult between the two products? Is there something else that I should be looking at?

Thanks for any and all thoughts.

Chris

I would continue with varnish. It is a lot nicer than Cetol, in my opinion, and it is what is there already so it will be less work.

In the worn places you need to sand in order to get an even color. You probably want to avoid staining.

For steps, it is best to avoid varnish as it can be slippery when wet. You may want to remove what is there now and leave the wood bare. Alternatively you can add sand or similar to the wet varnish but, in my experience, it does not work well or last long.

What is wood? Teak? Mahogany?

How often do you want to refinish? Varnish here is a chore every 3-4 months and 5-7 coats while Cetol is every 18-24 months 2 coats, your choice.

Varnish looks better....but.

Greetings,
We're quite happy with Cetol gloss. Ah, should have added no color/tint as with regular Cetol marine which has an orange tinge that some don't like.

If you're going to strip down to bare wood, then Cetol is going to be about the easiest to use and longest lasting finish you can put on. For it to look it's best and last the longest you need to prep the wood just as well as if you were going to varnish and apply at least 6 coats. You also have to like, or at least be able to tolerate, the look of Cetol.

If you want the look of varnish while getting the most longevity out of a "varnish" style of finish, I'd look at using epoxy base coats with something like Bristol Finish or Awlgrip as your top coats. And again you'll need to apply 6 or so top coats.

All that said, Epifanes is one of the best of the more traditional varnishes out there.

I'm a fan of Minwax Helmsman Spar Urethane, if I'm up north once a year quick sand and re-coat, the Summer Florida sun was not nice and need to re-coat every six to eight weeks. I have removed all the Cetol the PO had done I find the finish too cloudy.

Exterior Wood Finish Test Two-year Update - Practical Sailor Print Edition Article

Have to agree with Gilberto - perhaps a bit more work but after 40 years, experance says " marine " varnish - your under cover in a shed, could perhaps go 2 years plus between coats - strip the old stuff down to bare wood, remove all the mold, dings, spots, get a uniform color, sand starting with 60 gt, then 120 gt and finally 180 gt - wipe down with a tack cloth, wash down with mineral spirits, thin the first coat or two, add AT LEAST 6 more coats - beautiful !

I haven't used Cetol, but I do use Epiphanes on my teak. I find it as easy as any varnish to apply and it looks and lasts well up here in NE.

Ken

I use Epifanes Rubbed Effect on interior teak and Cetol Natural Teak and Gloss on exterior teak. Epifanes definitely looks better, but we are cruisers and our exterior teak takes a beating at docks and locks, and from the sun. We apply 3 coats of Natural Teak, lightly sand the 3rd coat then apply a fourth coat. We then apply 2 coats of Cetol Gloss. A couple of advantages of Cetol is no need to sand between coats, touchups of damaged areas don't show or destroy the integrity of the finish, and the UV protection is superior.

I can speak as someone who has actually used both Cetol and Epifanes Wood Finish. Based on our results, the Epifanes Wood Finish is far superior in about every way, and every bit as easy to apply as Cetol, requiring no sanding between coats. No contest IMO, both were applied to areas that got a lot of exposure and abuse.

Thanks for everyone's input. After reading more about it, I think i'm going to try the Epifanes Wood Finish on one of the steps and see how it goes.

clynn said:

I think i'm going to try the Epifanes Wood Finish on one of the steps and see how it goes.

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The top surfaces of the steps are the one place you do not want to varnish unless you use some anti-slip additive (like sand) as they would become dangerously slippery when wet!

On your steps, DON'T put the varnish where you will be stepping.
I tried strips of glue-on nonskid on my boarding ladder. They worked fine for almost 5 years, but by then I needed to touch up the varnish, and the strips started curling at the edges. Another year and some started coming off, so I am without, and, not having followed my own advice, have slippery varnish on the top surfaces. OK if I am really careful when it is wet, but soon I will go back to the store and get some more non-skid strips.

As for Cetol, I tried some on my cedar entry porch at my house. Under cover, but still gets the sun, it lasted a couple of years before it started looking ugly. No help once that happens, you have to strip it all off and start again.

At least with a good quality varnish, (Epifanes is the best I have run across) you won't need to take it all off, just fix the holes when you see them, then when re-doat time comes, add one or two coats, until you have a good base. I need to spend 1/2 hour a couple of times a year with a 1/4" brush, getting the holes. Then I redo the top coat on whichever boards are the worst on the boat, until I am back to getting lots of compliments on my "just done" varnish. As I too keep my boat in a shelter for the winters, I haven't had to do the whole boat in a season since I discovered Epifanes. Before I had the shelter, varnishing with Spar varnish (various brand names) twice a year round the whole boat, still didn't quite get it to the compliments stage.
If you stick to th ecombination of Epifanes and a shelter, you will get to the "compliments" stage pretty quickly.
I sand before the last coat with at least 320 grit. I also use a Badger hair brush.

I believe Cetol was invented for fence coatings. It is best described as 'translucent orange paint'. It might be good for fences, but it isn't good for much else. I still have to get rid of it from my bow rails. Fortunately it comes off easily.

Deks Olje is something you should consider. For rails you first saturate the bare wood with #1 (multiple wet-on-wet coats etc) then after it has dried for several days put 4 or 5 coats of #2 on top. For steps/decks you don't go further than the #1 application. Touch-ups are simple: some #1 oil with fine wet&dry paper and then a couple of coats of #2.

Xlantic said:

The top surfaces of the steps are the one place you do not want to varnish unless you use some anti-slip additive (like sand) as they would become dangerously slippery when wet!

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Not true. We used Wood Finish on our stairs to the flying bridge as well as the floor of our aft deck some of which led to the much used swim platform. If you are paranoid, you can add some of the small glass beads that Awlgrip markets to add some grip (which I did on my anchor pulpit) and a few other places, or the 3M traction tape to the stair risers (used on the aforementioned stairs).

Like Insequent, I`ve had some success with Deks Olje, over the last 5 years. The finish is not as good as varnishes, but the easy maintenance compensates for that. I use Cetol on my nameboards, side and transom, it looks good. Last refinish of the FB side name boards I applied a teak color stain before 5 coats of Cetol, to restore teak color without severe sanding, all good so far.
After removing, stripping, applying 5 coats of Cetol, and refitting my FB stairs, I put grooved hard rubber type self adhesive steptreads on the steps. Looks good, non slip, hard wearing, replaceable if/when needed. The stairs are undercover, so I`m expecting good service from both the Cetol and the treads.

No varnish on the steps! You'll create a serious slipping hazard.

I'm a huge fan oif Epifanes gloss varnish and Epifanes Wood Finish. Great products. If you're in a freshwater, covered slip, you'll get many years of service from the Epifanes. I'm in a covered slip and have seen great longevity in the varnish and finish coats.

I recently had some repair work done on my bow pulpit and the shop covered the new teak pulpit in 2-part Awlgrip clear epoxy. It's a great match to the varnish and seems hard and strong. I wasn't thrilled at first since I had requested Epifanes on all surfaces, but now that it's done, it looks fine. I'm told I can add coats of Epifanes to it as needed. We'll see...

I think in the debate of Epifanes vs Cetol, it all comes down to your preferred look and willingness to touch up as needed. Epifanes in the sun and salt will need more work than in the shade and freshwater environment. Cetol has a look all its own and is not my cup of tea. Both seem to be good products aimed at different preferences. If you're not sure, but a small can of Cetol and try it out on some scrap teak.

When I redo my doors, I'll seal the bare wood with CPES epoxy, then cover it with many coats of Epifanes Wood Finish. The last couple coats will be Epifanes Gloss for its UV protection. I'm hoping that will last many years in my covered slip.

Just want to put a word in here and it's Cetol. I've been though it all and have many friends. Cetol natural teak. I owned and Island packet and still do. I have been in the bis for a long time. I can get seven years and repairs are not so bad. Talk to someone that has teak!!!

http://www.boat-coating.com/documents/Varnishtest.pdf

anyone using coelan?

I use mostly McClosky's spar varnish and bought somne Epifanes "clear varnish" recently for a dining room table. I knew McClosky's is a high oil rather soft varnish and I wanted something harder for the table. The table is't done yet so I can't coment on the hardness. The first coat or two looks very nice.

The Epifanes is very different to brush. By comparison McClosky's is a joy to use. Epifanes is a ureathane and McClosky's is a traditional oil based varnish so it's not supprising they are different but I didn't expect the big difference in application. I don't think I'm going to use Epifanes on my boat as I think the softer oil based varnish is much more flexable and flexability is very important IMO. However I'm sure Epifanes is harder and longer lasting.

But re the original question the big difference w Cetol and Epifanes is how it looks. Epifanes is beautiful and Cetol looks more like an oil finish. With rough use and lots of time the Cetol may then look better .. just a guess .. But w propper brightwork care the Epifanes or McClosky's would probably look much better over time. Again just my opinion.

Another user of Deks Olje - both #1 and #2 (you can stop at #1 for a flat finish if required).

Removed Cetol which as many others have noted is a bit orange for my liking. It also was laid on pretty thick on my boat.

It is 2.5 years with Deks Olje. By the end of the first 12 months left exposed summer and winter the winter rain had really taken a toll and needed lots of work in the spring. I had shorted the recommended top coats and only did 2 - so perhaps little surprise it wore off in places. After doing a better job (!) and having a rain cover the next 12 months still look great with minimal touchup required - and those from chips and bangs.

The #2 finish is not as good as varnish but better IMHO than Cetol.

If you're in a freshwater, covered slip, you'll get many years of service from the Epifanes. I'm in a covered slip and have seen great longevity in the varnish and finish coats.

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Again, I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of what is said in this and other posts, based on years of actual experience of continual year around heavy use exclusively in a sunny saltwater environment. And by heavy use, I mean people and heavily used furniture tromping on it every day. Somewhat shaded on the aft deck, to be sure, but far from entirely. I really felt like we gave these products the acid test, and in all cases initial application was done by skilled professionals.

Just to be clear, I am a staunch advocate of untreated teak exterior decks for a variety of reasons. Mainly because mine came that way and I had zero desire to spend money on them for purely for the sake of cosmetics.

Epifanes is not a urethane. At least their clear varnish is not.

"Epifanes Clear Varnish, known around the world, is considered the ultimate in high gloss finish. This traditional marine varnish is based on tung oil, phenolic-modified alkyd resins and maximum U.V. absorbers. It has outstanding protection for all marine and household woods and can be applied to Interior and exterior woods above the waterline. It offers superior flow and durability. In addition, it has excellent flexibility and water resistance in all climate conditions."

You really have to take in account where you boat, how you boat, how you store your boat and how much time and money you want to spend maintaining a finish before you pick your poison.

There is no one size fits all finish.

Thanks for the great input so far. I took some pics on the boat to show what I'll be working on.



Not sure how I'm going to do the wood on the railing under the hard top cover (pic 3). On the stairs, notice how there was something in it before that is coming up.

I just love it when builders put night work where there is no way to refinish it with out remove everything around it.

Clynn,
I know what I'd put on the rest but I'm think'in the Cetol may be good for the steps. Anybody used it on a foot traffic area? On my can of McClosky's varnish it says "do not use on wooden decks or steps". So it seems oil based varinsh is not suitable for steps. For the steps I really don't know what to use. If you could find an oil that's not sticky ..... but that's a bit of a contradiction. I'd be thinking about deck and porch paint .. colors not clear. Keep in mind it must be easily cleanable.

Bill,
The sales people at Fisheries Supply told me Epifanes is a urathane. Got a can right here and It says "tung oil based". On my McClosky's can it says .......
Ingredients:
alkyd Resin, Mineral Sprits, Tung Oil Phenolic Resin, Exempt Mineral Sprits and Regular Mineral Sprits. Phenolic resin is known to be about the most durable resin used in paints. I heard it was hard too but I know fron lots of experience the finish (McKlosky's) os soft compared to others.

I have Cetol on a vertical ladder to the upper deck & also lower deck area - with the right shoes on, it's not to slick when wet. As soon as I'm done with the electrical, I'm removing the Cetol from anything I walk on. For hand rails, windows etc. I going with Cetol.

We're in a covered slip right now, however, we are taking this girl to Mexico, no covered slips there.

I've applied a lot of Epifanes but Cetol is on my boat

Hands down Cetol will out performs Epifanes or any other oil based vanish when it comes to durability and ease of repair. In the California delta with high dry heat Epifanes or for that matter any conventional varnish is good for maybe 6 months in direct sunlight. In my opinion it's better to deal with the color of Cetol than the look of failing varnish. Cetol can be touched up with a light sanding and blending in of Cetol. Two part epoxies to my knowledge have no UV protection so they need to be coated with varnish containing uv protection. I thought this was the hot set up, two part epoxy coated with 8 coats of Epifanes until it to failed on a sail boat I had varnished a couple of years ago. In this case the epoxy did not fail and we were able to sand and recoat the teak. At this point I'n not sure if the epoxy really helped at all. Cetol is is easy to use and reliable, may not have the beauty of varnish, but it's close enough, especially if your working on other peoples boats all the time and really want to just enjoy your own.

Scary,
What's unconventional about Epifanes?