Heavy Weather

I find some increase in speed helps when I'm with a following sea due to closer matching of boat speed to wave speed plus increased pressure on the rudders.* In the PNW 9 - 10 knots*seems to be a sweet spot to match following sea swell periods until winds reach + 25 - 30 knots. *Dashew and other blue water cruisers note that a power or sailing vessel that can do 10 to 11 knots matches most following sea conditions pretty well - ie "speed" is good.*

I consider my rudders oversize which is a plus in a following sea. An under size rudder(s) is unfortunately all too common and exacerbates low speed handling woes.
Obviously, when following seas are too big to handle, course alteration is called for.

In larger following seas my AP is not quick enough and I hand steer. Although this is not uncommon, I'm going to see if something can be done such as AP timing or larger rams. Any thoughts?

Moonstruck wrote:


Run the sea as slowly as possible and still have steerage way.* The wave will carry the boat forward.* Any extra speed you have will exacerbate the situation.* keep the transom as square to the wave as possible.* You may have to use bursts of throttle as well as rudder to accomplish this.* Try not to add any speed and keep it square to the wave.* Any angle, and you have started the broach.* In a slow boat, I can't see that it would make a great deal of difference whether single or twin.

I am as interested as you to see other responses to this question.

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*

I'm with you on this one.

Sometimes you just have to slow down and even abandon course just to be able to ride it out.

Time the waves and try to match course and speed to give the best ride.

It is not about keeping a schedule it is about arriving at you destination safe and uninjured.

The toughest part is trying to get turned around to get the heck back to where you came from.

More often than not it is just as well to keep going.

If you wind up dead in the water try putting some oil overboard be it fish oil or even vegetable oil. It will calm the sea around the boat so you can work. I wouldn't advise using engine oil as the environmentalists would have a hissy fit.*

Don't believe me. Try it once.

*Chapman's refers to it for emergency application.

SD*

KJ wrote:


RCook wrote:*

* Where Deadman Reach meets the eastern part of Peril Strait, our 26-footer took green water over the bow*

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Wow! I swear we have our own*Capt. Jack Aubrey or Capt. Jack Sparrow!*
High seas adventure.* I think we ought to call you Capt. Jack from now on.*







*Hey, Mr. Baker, some great stories here.*You*ought to*market a calender with the best pictures sent in (donated) by the*members,*you could use these stories as an accompaniment.* The proceeds*could go toward the TF kitty.* Crazy huh?

*KJ
*
*Hey, maybe we can use the photos of our members for a calender, sort of like a Chippendale's of the Trawler World.** KJ

*

Moonstruck wrote:


shrimp wrote:

Some amazing stories,glad you all lived to tell the tale. My interesting trips have all come from running sea situations, I find the 8 knots my old IG cruises at, is not quite fast enough to stop her sliding down the backside of the wave with the resultant lose of steerage and have her potentially broaching in the trough.

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Run the sea as slowly as possible and still have steerage way.* The wave will carry the boat forward.* Any extra speed you have will exacerbate the situation.* keep the transom as square to the wave as possible.* You may have to use bursts of throttle as well as rudder to accomplish this.* Try not to add any speed and keep it square to the wave.* Any angle, and you have started the broach.* In a slow boat, I can't see that it would make a great deal of difference whether single or twin.

I am as interested as you to see other responses to this question.

*

Shrimp, when you talk about sliding off the wave in a broach condition, you are talking about extreme conditions.* To elaborate on what I have learned, no auto pilot I know of will keep up with this.* It takes quick reactions with wheel and throttles to control the boat.* It is not for the faint of heart.* I once went into Beaufort Inlet with one engine out.* Conditions had deteriorated to the point that there were some breakers in the channel.* Where with 2 engines I would pick a wave and adjusting speed ride the back of it to calm water.* With one engine it was entirely different.* I called the USCG at Fort Macon and asked them to stand by.* Started in slow and deliberate.* Had one break behind me** Scary.* Luckily it lifted the stern and went under us.

I think that with a large breaker, I would reverse the engine to counter act the forward push.

While towing another boat into the inlet when it was fairly rough, I learned a big lesson.* If there are two boats facing a bad inlet, it would be worth one towing the other end.* The boat towed keeps the stern of the towing boat square, and the towing boat keeps the bow of the towed boat straight.* It was an easy ride through some rough water.* A big sea anchor could probably do the same.

I used to think that stuff was fun.* Just too old for it now.

*

Moonstruck wrote:

... A big sea anchor could probably do the same.

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A sea (parachute) anchor would create too much drag.* I'd try a drogue.

*

worst weather for me was going enroute from Torrance, CA airport to Las Vegas in a twin piper seneca.
i made the trip with a buddy, we had some business to attend at Green Valley, NV.
it was late november, storms were coming from the PNW down over So Cal bringing lots of precipitations.
we were flying IFR (completely reference to instruments). there are some mountainous regions to clear along the route on the eastern side of california coming into nevada. In these situatons the FAA have instituted certain min altitudes to maintain in order to receive nav signals and other min altitudes to maintain obstruction clearance.
we had checked the weather as part of our pre-plan and realized the freezing level was above us at around 14 or 15 thousand feet which we deemed OK (both of us are commercially rated multiengine IFR pilots with thousands hours experience).

coming across the ridges we were getting knocked around pretty bad (enough to appreciate the seatbelts), no forward viz at all, rain hammering at the cockpit, we slow down to whats called maneuvering speed (a certificated speed at which the aircraft will stall rather than break into pieces by a heavy gust or wind), i took her off the a/p to handfly which is my pref in this type weather as a/p has a tendency to overadjust and not "go with the flow", then we are advised by air traffic control to ascend to 15 thousand for whatever reason i forget, few mins later the needles drop and the windows freeze over.
i flip on the pitot tube heater and the instruments come back alive, the ice is not "bad" but still we request a lower altitude which we got shortly after, the ice cleared and safe landing in solid overcast/rain at Green Valley.

i noticed there are some fellow pilots on this board.
in flying we have: good training, good manuals, certificated vessels.

I kinda miss that in the boating world, i mean exactly how much stress can you put on a boat before it falls apart?

in maritime experience i dont have a lot of bad weather experience, came back from catalina island in the fog (just like flying the piper sans the fear of death) using the gps and the radar but it was still somewhat of a "scary" experience to a newbie boater.

Per wrote:


i noticed there are some fellow pilots on this board.
in flying we have: good training, good manuals, certificated vessels.

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Well, if we're gonna hijack to flying "worsts," I guess the one for me is flying the de Havilland Beaver up the Inside Passage from Minstrel Island to Prince Rupert in the 90s.* It's a about a three or four hour run and on one trip we flew the entire time at 50 feet or less in light rain with at most one mile visibility and usually less.* With no navigation system in the plane at all, all our flying was looking out the window and if what we saw was where our finger was on the chart, we were in the right place.* But when all you see out the window is white mist, it gets a little nerve-wracking, particularly for several hours at a stretch.*

We flew far enough off the shoreline to see it and have room to turn around toward it (you never want to turn around away from it).* Fortunately there was no wind so the water was glass smooth.* So if we hit a fog patch with zero visibility I knew I could reduce power and set the plane up for a glassy water landing straight ahead and fly it using the gyro horizon.

We didn't have to do that but we were exhausted after that run what with straining our eyes to find the next nav marker on shore or the next point of land.* Our biggest fear was hitting a cruise ship.* Going our way we'd have come up the wake first but going the other way the first thing we'd have seen was the ship itself.* Most of the time we were flying at main deck level or lower.* We missed one by about 100 feet near Bella Bella.

The only boating tie I can think of for this story is that had we had to land, we'd have been a boat and taxied until we got enough visibility to take off again.

*

Marin wrote:

*
Per wrote:


i noticed there are some fellow pilots on this board.
in flying we have: good training, good manuals, certificated vessels.

Click to expand...

Well, if we're gonna hijack to flying "worsts," I guess the one for me is flying the de Havilland Beaver up the Inside Passage from Minstrel Island to Prince Rupert in the 90s.* It's a about a three or four hour run and on one trip we flew the entire time at 50 feet or less in light rain with at most one mile visibility and usually less.* With no navigation system in the plane at all, all our flying was looking out the window and if what we saw was where our finger was on the chart, we were in the right place.* But when all you see out the window is white mist, it gets a little nerve-wracking, particularly for several hours at a stretch.*

We flew far enough off the shoreline to see it and have room to turn around toward it (you never want to turn around away from it).* Fortunately there was no wind so the water was glass smooth.* So if we hit a fog patch with zero visibility I knew I could reduce power and set the plane up for a glassy water landing straight ahead and fly it using the gyro horizon.

We didn't have to do that but we were exhausted after that run what with straining our eyes to find the next nav marker on shore or the next point of land.* Our biggest fear was hitting a cruise ship.* Going our way we'd have come up the wake first but going the other way the first thing we'd have seen was the ship itself.* Most of the time we were flying at main deck level or lower.* We missed one by about 100 feet near Bella Bella.

The only boating tie I can think of for this story is that had we had to land, we'd have been a boat and taxied until we got enough visibility to take off again.

*

*



I sure hope you had floats!

Scary story.

*

Conrad wrote:



I sure hope you had floats!

Scary story.

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Yes, I switched from flying wheels to flying floats in 1980.* This is the plane my wife and I use for our SE Alaska trips, N17598.* This plane came from the Falklands many years ago as a hulk and was rebuilt by Kenmore Air Harbor (known today as Kenmore Air).* I took the photo on the seaplane float in Wrangell, AK.

Is that your plane Marin?* Very nice.

Regarding running before a storm, I've never understood why people do that.* Certainly not all boats will heave to, and certainly in inland waters where there are places to hide heaving to may not make sense, but with a para anchor on a bridle you can ride out a hurricane in most any vessel with any kind of draft at all.* I haven't been in such conditions of course, but have been hove to often enough to understand what a blessing it can be to just 'pull off the road' and drift.* A para anchor is mandatory for a trawler because most won't hold the ideal 50 degrees or so to the wind.* This is critical for the same reason pumping oil overboard is a time honored technique for calming troubled waters - you create a slick upwind of the hull as you move more or less sideways that disturbs the surface of the water and really big waves just dissolve in the slick before they hit the boat.

There's a great description of riding out a hurricane in the Indian Ocean while bridled to a para anchor in the appendix of Lin and Larry Pardey's book Oriental Adventure.* Lin made bread, while Larry sunbathed on the lee side of the cabin, wind 90 - 110 knots.

Delfin wrote:

Is that your plane Marin?* Very nice.

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No.* It belongs to Kenmore Air.* However my wife and I became good friends of the family that founded and owns Kenmore Air, I did all my flying there starting in 1980 or thereabouts, and wrote magazine articles and a book about flying floatplanes using their planes in the illustrations and on the magazine covers, and most recently wrote a book about the company itself.* Bottom line is that they let my wife and I use their Beavers whenever they can*spare one.

In the late 90s we were trying to decide between buying our own Beaver or a boat large enough to cruise the waters we'd been flying over for almost 20 years.* We could afford one or the other, but not both.* I asked Bob Munro, one of the founders of the company and the man who ran it from 1946 until his death in 2000*and an avid boater himself what he thought we should get.* Without hesitation he said, "Buy the boat.* You'll never regret it.* You can always fly my airplanes."* So we did, and he was right.

We all have heroes, people we look up to and who made a major difference in our lives.* Bob Munro is mine.* This is my favorite photo of him, taken during one of his resupply flights to the Blue Glacier on the peak of Mt. Olympus.


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 8th of February 2011 09:09:50 PM

Lovely plane.

Since this thread has been hijacked by pilots, this might fit.* While in Seymour narrows (just North of Campbell River BC) we were hit by a blizzard.* Snow was falling so fast that about every three or four minutes I had to go outside and squeegee the windows as the snow accumulation was causing the wipers to stall.* The radar was useless, but the plotter was working, so we crept forward.* About the time we passed under the overhead power lines at the North end, with visibility at about zero, I detected a bright light directly ahead.* Seconds later, a Beaver flew by just feet off the water.* The cockpit was at eye level to my pilot house, and the look on the pilots face is seared into my brain. He was not having a good day.* My wife mentioned that his passenger would most likely never fly in a small plane again.* It scared the hell out of ME!* I do know he flew under the power lines, but I have no idea what happened after that...........................Arctic Traveller

Wow, what a coincidence.* That was Marin flying that plane!

Ragnar,
Reading your story left me w an oh my god feeling. I worked at False Pass as the radioman (KWF27) in 67. That was in the Nick Beze days. Moving fish on scows was a never ending saga and the effort of keeping the fish cold never seemed to end either. Do you know/remember Larry Freeburn? he and my father were good friends. I was the first aid man at False Pass too and at times worked on radios. I worked at a Platinum mine at Goodnews Bay and a gold mine near Bethel also.

Wow, shades of 'the perfect storm' in that story Ragnar. I really related to that movie, especially as I've seen a documentary where they went to the fishing town where it mostly took place and interviewed the actual people involved - on land that is - the ones left behind. There are certain parallels in your story.
My uncle was a fisherman. It was going out long-lining in his boat as a teenager, (and he let me steer) that fired me with the desire to get my own boat one day. Sadly a few years later his boat was wrecked when it pulled loose its mooring in nasty weather (literally lifted it off the seafloor), and went onto rocks, and he lost her. He got off just in time and got ashore. He never went back fishing. The sea is unforgiving.....

Delfin wrote:Wow, what a coincidence.* That was Marin flying that plane!

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That's the first thought that popped in my head!* LOL

*

Peter B wrote:

Wow, shades of 'the perfect storm' in that story Ragnar. I really related to that movie, especially as I've seen a documentary where they went to the fishing town where it mostly took place and interviewed the actual people involved - on land that is - the ones left behind.* *

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An interesting side bar to the "Perfect Storm" documentary that*was omitted. Several of the families of the crew that were lost filed suit against NOAA and the federal gov. for negligence.* Apparently, the deep sea buoy that reported sea and atmospheric conditions for the Flemish Cap had been inoperative for some time. The CG had not had a chance to get out there to fix it, and also, due to the severity of the storm the buoy had dragged off position.* The Judge*ruled that the captain of the vessel was ultimately responsible for taking the vessel out to sea, and had other data sources available to him. He eventually threw all of the suits out.** ** *

*

Marin wrote:

*
Delfin wrote:

Is that your plane Marin?* Very nice.

Click to expand...

No.* It belongs to Kenmore Air.* However my wife and I became good friends of the family that founded and owns Kenmore Air, I did all my flying there starting in 1980 or thereabouts, and wrote magazine articles and a book about flying floatplanes using their planes in the illustrations and on the magazine covers, and most recently wrote a book about the company itself.* Bottom line is that they let my wife and I use their Beavers whenever they can*spare one.

In the late 90s we were trying to decide between buying our own Beaver or a boat large enough to cruise the waters we'd been flying over for almost 20 years.* We could afford one or the other, but not both.* I asked Bob Munro, one of the founders of the company and the man who ran it from 1946 until his death in 2000*and an avid boater himself what he thought we should get.* Without hesitation he said, "Buy the boat.* You'll never regret it.* You can always fly my airplanes."* So we did, and he was right.

We all have heroes, people we look up to and who made a major difference in our lives.* Bob Munro is mine.* This is my favorite photo of him, taken during one of his resupply flights to the Blue Glacier on the peak of Mt. Olympus.


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 8th of February 2011 09:09:50 PM
*

My wife was the interim GM at Rosario resort when we dated, I actually proposed to her on the docks over there (Friday Harbor I think).
We flew several times with Kenmore and was always impressed (especially me) with their operation.

*

Ha Ha
You were so smitten you're not shure where you were. Now I'm embaresed to admit what I can't remember.

Have a drink Ragnar

Dear Mr. R. Walsh (aka: Ragnar),*
****
I would like to take this opportunity to offer my services to you as your agent for a small percentage of the movie and book rights.*** 'nough said.***** KJ

ps* is it* Ragnar Lodbrok?
*

*

-- Edited by KJ on Wednesday 9th of February 2011 11:20:15 PM

KJ wrote:


Peter B wrote:

Wow, shades of 'the perfect storm' in that story Ragnar. I really related to that movie, especially as I've seen a documentary where they went to the fishing town where it mostly took place and interviewed the actual people involved - on land that is - the ones left behind.* *

Click to expand...

An interesting side bar to the "Perfect Storm" documentary that*was omitted. Several of the families of the crew that were lost filed suit against NOAA and the federal gov. for negligence.* Apparently, the deep sea buoy that reported sea and atmospheric conditions for the Flemish Cap had been inoperative for some time. The CG had not had a chance to get out there to fix it, and also, due to the severity of the storm the buoy had dragged off position.* The Judge*ruled that the captain of the vessel was ultimately responsible for taking the vessel out to sea, and had other data sources available to him. He eventually threw all of the suits out.*******



KJ, on that question of wave-rider buoys, you and others might be interested to know that during that humungous cat 5 cyclone Yasi, which tore through North Queensland just one short week ago, the wave-rider buoy out in its path gave up and went off the air after passing on a reading or 85 metres.* Now there is some speculation re the accuracy, and that it might have been so bodily tossed around it broke it's chain and flew into the air - we will never know - it's gone.* Also the weather station on Willis Island, built to cat 5 standards following Larry a cat 4 about 5 yrs before, broke down after reading winds of 185 kph.* It was smashed!

*

Ragnar wrote:

Well KJ, after attempting to be a part of this community, I give up. I've honestly tried to share some experiences I've had, and in return I get your comment. I thought perhaps this was a community of gracious boaters who enjoy the pleasure of each other's company. You win, I quit. I'll close out my account.

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Don't do it Ragnar! There is actually a lot of what you seek in this group. We all say things we shouldn't from time to time, and often without thinking how someone else might take it. And there is a lot of potential in a written format to misunderstand what someone has said. We could sure use your kind soul amongst us.

*

Carey wrote:


Ragnar wrote:

Well KJ, after attempting to be a part of this community, I give up. I've honestly tried to share some experiences I've had, and in return I get your comment. I thought perhaps this was a community of gracious boaters who enjoy the pleasure of each other's company. You win, I quit. I'll close out my account.

Click to expand...

Don't do it Ragnar! There is actually a lot of what you seek in this group. We all say things we shouldn't from time to time, and often without thinking how someone else might take it. And there is a lot of potential in a written format to misunderstand what someone has said. We could sure use your kind soul amongst us.

*

I agree.* I'm not even sure what was meant by the comments.* I would like to hear more from Ragnar.* It sounds very interesting.

*

Ragnar wrote:

Well KJ, after attempting to be a part of this community, I give up.

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I interpreted KJ's "agent" comment as a compliment to your ability to relate a good story.* Perhaps I was wrong.

Regardless, it's a benefit to all of us to have someone who has experienced what most of us have just read about.* I've heard about Little Diomede island.* Back in the '80s I was asked to write a two-part magazine*article about a fairly famous Alaska bush pilot, Orville Tosch (father of the Paul Tosch who today*does the traffic reporting for KOMO in Seattle).* Orville told me a story about going out to Little Diomede.* I don't remember why he went--* I think it was something to do with an airplane problem he was having---*but it was in a walrus hide boat.

The people who have lived and worked*in*environments like this have experienced things*most people are hard-pressed to even imagine.* I have interviewed a lot of*PT boat vets for my current writing project and when you think about it, it's pretty amazing to be talking to*a person who lived through those kinds of adventures.

I would very much like to hear about your experiences in Alaska if you are willing to write them up.* Besides the opportunity to vicariously experience someone's achievement that is far beyond anything I will every accomplish, there's a good chance I'll learn something I can apply to our own boating here in the PNW.

Most of us who participate in this forum, including me, can be as*holes sometimes.* That's the penalty of the "no repercussions" nature of the internet.* But that should not diminish the value of your contribution to the group.* So like Carey, I hope you'll stick around and give us the benefit of your experiences and adventures*when you feel like writing them up.

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 10th of February 2011 12:32:48 AM

Ragnar,

Come back and I'll tell my story about when I worked on the Alaskan Star Semi-submersible drilling rig 60 miles offshore from Yakutat in a 60 foot swell.* I kid-you-not!* I read your experience with reflection of what could have happened to us those stormy nights in 1978...

IMHO Ragna, I think you misinterpreted KJ's post. For myself I thought your story was extraordinary.

I roger that. I think you totally misinterpreted KJ's comment Ragnar. It was complimentary. My reading of it was wow, here's someone who has really done some s**t worth writing about, and worth reading as well. For mine, I want the movie rights, bugger the book. We're always pulling legs on here - can't help it, it's par for the course. Just don't take things quite so literally. Same goes for over on OTDE. Just jump in and hayangon.

Ragnar wrote:

Well KJ, after attempting to be a part of this community, I give up. I've honestly tried to share some experiences I've had, and in return I get your comment. I thought perhaps this was a community of gracious boaters who enjoy the pleasure of each other's company. You win, I quit. I'll close out my account.

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Richard (Ragnar),
Please accept my most humble apology for any possible negativity that you might have derived from my post.* Your interpretation was just the opposite of my intent. I have nothing but the greatest admiration for an individual that has been through such an ordeal as you and still maintains a positive attitude.* My comments about movie and book rights was just my way of saying that more people should be able to share your experience.* As many of the other folks have mentioned, we welcome the addition of such* seaman as yourself to the forum.
My inquiry regarding your avatar, Ragnar; I was curious as to the reference of the name, Raganr Lodbrok was a* legendary Norse superhero that was supposed to be a direct descendant of Odin (the head honcho of Norse mythology).* I thought it was a really cool name.***
Anyway, hope to hear from you soon.******* KJ

*


*

-- Edited by KJ on Thursday 10th of February 2011 08:49:46 AM