Fuel Cells

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ksanders said:
Not much chance of deep sixing the generator just yet guys :)
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Mule skinners used to laugh at them thar new fangled otto-moe-beels struggling through muddy wagon ruts too.

Today I could see one of these coming in handy on an energy efficient boat with low power demands when the wind isn't blowing and it's been cloudy for a couple days.

In the future...who knows?
 
There are lots of people without high power needs where solar and/or a fuel cell may make sense especially if one is trying to stay a few extra days and ol sol is not cooperating.


I'm not knocking a generator but simply do not want one, cannot afford one and would need another boat to fit one. None of which is going to happen.

Mind you the fuel cells are still not in the picture for me due to cost but that will change.
 
Today... Not the future...

The commercially available, made for marine use fuel cells do not supply enough power for a larger cruising boat, and by larger I mean 40' plus.

Yes there will always be that off case of someone that can eek by on a minimalistic existence and that person is sure to pipe up here and say "but... I can do it" Great, but for the vast majority of folks with cruising size boats 8 amps is just not enough.

Tomorrow, some day, maybe not all that long in the future... Fuel cells might be available that will fill the need.

But me, I live in a world of today. I do not live in the past clinging to my reciprocating engine generator. No, I use the tool that is available today. Today, I can make a phone call and buy a generator that will power my boats needs. The same cannot be said of fuel cell technology.

So before anybody further paints a picture of me likening my image to some behind the times old fart that won't look at technology, think about just who you are addressing here. I'm the guy promoting advanced networking and alarm systems on boats, doing things that are at the leading edge of that arena.

If fuel cells made sense for a larger boat, believe you me, I'd have one gentlemen.
 
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210 amps? Sorry, that would be me. In fact, I could get double the methanol use if I use 100 amps per day. I run the genset powering a 125 Amp charger, for about 3-4 hours to charge the batteries.

That would be enough for me. Refrigerator, 40 amps. Some led lights, 5 amps? Stereo, 10 amps, water pump 40 amps... no inverter, propane stove, no battery charger needed, no washer dryer, no AC.

No more 8KW Onan clattering up the anchorage (shhh, don't let it know I said that).
 
Four observations:

1 Popular Mechanics made great reading at the barber shop when I was a teenager
2 The perfect solution for a problem that doesn't exist.
3 With a small solar array a fuel cell has more than met its match.
4 Is this an ADM methanol marketing ploy? :eek:
 
ksanders said:
So before anybody further paints a picture of me likening my image to some behind the times old fart that won't look at technology, think about just who you are addressing here. I'm the guy promoting advanced networking and alarm systems on boats, doing things that are at the leading edge of that arena.

If fuel cells made sense for a larger boat, believe you me, I'd have one gentlemen.
Click to expand...

Sorry if I tweaked a nerve there...it wasn't intended :flowers:

If you re-read the second paragraph in my post, you'll see that I said these emerging fuel cells are more for boats where fuel efficiency and low power demands were a priority.

The Stone Age didn't end because they ran out of stones, it was because a better technology came along...lots of people squirreling away at that one these days!

Here's an interim solution Eberspacher is working on, using diesel in their fuel cell;

 
Looking at the Efoy web page I see a few things that are interesting. Their consumer line tops out at 105 watt maximum output (8.8 amps at 12 volts) and costs about $6,500. The methanol fuel comes in 2.64 gallon (10 liter) containers for $71 (Fisheries Supply price) and is good for about 11 kilowatts of power. That means that the M10 fuel container would last a bit over four days of continuous full power operation for the 105 watt fuel cell. That is a pretty pricey battery charger to operate ($6.50 per kilowatt). A kilowatt of solar would stay ahead of the fuel cell even on cloudy days for 1/6th the initial cost and no operating cost.
 
TDunn said:
...the M10 fuel container would last a bit over four days of continuous full power operation for the 105 watt fuel cell...
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You're putting a square peg in a round hole aren't you, as that is not its intended use. More of a 'top up' unit (but obviously not to 100%) when solar and wind aren't enough, don't you think?
 
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MurrayM said:
Sorry if I tweaked a nerve there...it wasn't intended :flowers:

If you re-read the second paragraph in my post, you'll see that I said these emerging fuel cells are more for boats where fuel efficiency and low power demands were a priority.

The Stone Age didn't end because they ran out of stones, it was because a better technology came along...lots of people squirreling away at that one these days!

Here's an interim solution Eberspacher is working on, using diesel in their fuel cell;

Click to expand...

Yes, some day...

Eventually the need for the reciprocating engine driven generator will go away, replaced with fuel cells or some other not yet invented technology.

Espars approach, using diesel fuel as the source is a step in the right direction. Simply because it utilizes a fuel source (diesel) that is commonly available to extract hydrogen (what a fuel cell uses to produce electricity) from. That concept of using a commonly available fuel source cannot be overlooked. That single concept will lead to acceptance of the product. Also Espar's market segment of large trucks systems provides enough market size to justify the R&D dollars necessary to bring a viable product to market.

It will become marketable when the lifecycle costs equal the lifecycle costs of a reciprocating engine prime mover driving a synchronous generator end.

If I had a need today I would not wait on a purchase, thinking "next year" because it will not be available next year. Maybe a decade, but not this year, and not next year. For folks dreaming of a cheaper alternative, that's not going to happen. The unit will be priced no lower or not much lower than it's competition. That would just make good business sense.
 
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ksanders said:
The Largest of these fuel-cells are 210 amp hours per day or 8 amps DC at 12 volts.
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I get that out of my solar panels, and they cost $1500 rather than $6000, plus they cost nothing to run rather han $75 for 2 gal of fuel.
 
If I still had my 36' sailboat I'd be thinking very carefully about a fuel cell. The cost is still a little on the high the side but it would certainly have provided enough top up power for extended cruising.

Now, with my Krogen 54, my power consumption has gone up and I'd need two of them to keep me from firing up a generator.

Richard
 
Fuel cells aren't for the 'average' boater, but at a certain point it appeals to some outliers. Our power needs are small, and at some point (after retiring) we'd like to cruise extensively here on BC's north coast where fuelling options can be over 100 miles apart and some channels extend over 60 miles inland.

Solar and wind would help, except for those month long winter rain systems with little wind and 16 hours of darkness at night. Chuck in 5,000 foot mountains pretty much ringing an anchorage and that pretty much screws the solar panels.

Interesting navel gazing stuf...
 
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Bit o history for fun....old buddy Andy Andreach head of engineering in 50s-60s for American Cyanamid in CT & team worked years to perfect fuel cell break through technology and both are gone today and I can't recall if achieved that end. But Andy did help me get on the air as Wa1boe at that time...
 
No crankshaft, no problem: Toyota's free piston engine is brilliant
546b42681b899_-_outofturn-lg.jpg


The future for generators is this. Some have 2, some 1 piston, slides back and forth, air pressure is the spring cushion so the piston does not slam the cylinder end.
It can run on diesel or gas.
 
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