Handling Question:moving sideways w/twins

Several years ago I watched a good friend move his 48' trawler perfectly sideways along a dock a bunch of us were side tied and backed into. He explained the maneuver at the time but, years later, I tried it with no wind or current, and failed. The way my head thinks: when backed against a dock to move perfectly sideways to port, for example, helm hard to starboard, starboard engine in reverse (to get "portward" thrust off that rudder, I'm thinking), port engine in forward (to offset any starboard rearward movement?) Maybe you have to bump the port engine in and out of gear to control the sideways movement? Anybody out there a proven expert at this? My boat shown in photo, 3208s (not that it should matter.)
Ted

I'm no expert at it but I have done it in good conditions pretty much as you have described. It's tougher for me when fighting against the wind.

From my modest own experience in this particular case, if the boat has twin engines don't touch the helm what must be placed amidships.

Of course, only my opinion and experience.

It's called "walking" and you can prob'ly find some good videos on how to "walk" a boat. It's a LOT easier with twins, easier yet for a cruiser that has a lower profile than a flybridge boat (lower profile = less windage), but it does take quite a bit of practice on any boat! I learned to do a decent job of it on my 340 Sea Ray express cruiser, never was very successful with my Trojan F32 (flybridge sedan).

Rudder opposite gear direction. Low rpm usually
If you have small rudders the boat willjistfollow the gears so shift in and out to let the rudders work

Use of the bow thruster really helps when wind and current are present, seemingly all the time when I'm docking.

It all matters

sideways movement? Anybody out there a proven expert at this? My boat shown in photo, 3208s (not that it should matter.)

It all matters, size and pitch of props size and angle of swing of rudders, do the props turn inboard or outboard when both ahead or astern? How much draft?? How much keel? Some boats will some won't. Your method is basically correct but you must play with the power to keep things working your way. Just like getting to Carnegie Hall Practice-practice-practice. Old oil patch guy.

Example - Dock to starboard side:
Turn wheel to port
Port engine ahead
Stbd engine in reverse

The stbd engine in reverse pulls the bow clockwise (to starboard).
The port engine forward with the wheel to port pushes the stern to starboard.

FWIW, my Phoenix had prop pockets and would never do this.

We have tried every method described on the planet to do this and none of them work with our twin-engine boat.

Walking the boat sideways--- bow, stern, bow, stern--- is very different than moving the boat straight sideways. Walking a boat sideways is very easy. We can even do it with a single engine, tiller-steered, 60' narrowboat.

But moving the boat laterally while remaining more or less parallel to the dock--- as though it had bow and stern thrusters operating together--- is virtually impossible with our kind of boat. We've even had expert boat handlers try their favorite theory with our boat on dead calm days-- none of them work.

Perhaps a boat like a Great Harbor with its twin props mounted almost at the outside corners of the stern for maximum leverage can achieve this maneuver. But a boat like ours with the props fairly close-in to the keel won't do it, even with its large rudders.

omc said:

From my modest own experience in this particular case, if the boat has twin engines don't touch the helm what must be placed amidships.

Of course, only my opinion and experience.

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What you say about amidships helm is true enough for ordinary maneuvers but for sideway motion the rudders become useful. Experiment with your helm all the way over with one engine bumped in forward and the other in reverse and see which way your boat moves. The trick is to find the balance between forward and astern bump that moves boat more sideways than turning. It usually takes multiple bumps and corrections and some boats do better than others I have seen twin engine boats without thrusters do a very credible job of going sideways and a boat with a bow thruster and this technique should do well.

Never have done it regularly with twins, just with a single but the theory is basically the same. Practice near a fixed object until you have a feel of where your boat pivots both with the rudders centered and with them hard over to port and starboard. Once you have established that make your choice of alignment and practice, practice, practice in that alignment until confident.

uh...single and twin docking the same theory???????????????


and no real need to ever go sideways....most times and angled approach with prop walk or kicking the stern over will work.


As posted...not all twin boats will move sideways...some yes, a lot sorta, and some not at all.


Learning your boat will result in being to do anything with it...the only answer is practice and a few pointers when you are driving it...not so much from internet tips as I can't even tell someone how to drive their boat till I have handled it myself....not sure anyone can but pass along generalizations.

My point was the theory is to learn your boat and practice.

Bob Cofer said:

My point was the theory is to learn your boat and practice.

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That I totally agree with...

When I have done it I found it dead simple. Just push the joystick in the direction you want to go. That wasn't on my boat though. I was running a brand new Hinckley Talaria 34.

Actually I have done it with my sailboat. You have to be patient, but you can do it even with a full keel sailboat. On my boat the trick is to take advantage of prop walk. Because of that I can only move sideways to port. Rudder hard over to port. Bit of reverse until the stern starts to move to port. Back to forward to counter aft motion and swing the bow in. Repeat, repeat, repeat.......

You can do it on a twin too. Just use the engine that walks the stern toward the dock. Leave the other engine in neutral.

psneeld said:

and no real need to ever go sideways....most times and angled approach with prop walk or kicking the stern over will work.

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This is what we have learned, too. When docking we do what psneeld describes above, using opposed thrust, rudders and propwalk to move the stern into the dock once the bow is there.

Departing we use a method we read about years ago, and it works beautifully every time, no wind, adverse wind, whatever.

We get all the lines on board except the bow line which we run around a cleat or the bullrail and back to the bow where one of us holds it along with one of our oversize fenders.

The person driving puts the rudders hard over into the dock, opposes the thrust with the dockside prop in reverse and the outside prop in forward and the stern immediately starts swinging away from the dock. The person on the foredeck keeps the bow line tight to prevent the boat from moving forward or back and holds the fender in position to cushion the bow against the dock if necessary (so far it never has been).

If the wind is pushing the boat onto the dock we use more power, particularly on the outside prop which is pushing water into the hard-over rudder and so accelerates the rate of yaw.

The person driving lets the stern swing out to 45 degrees or more depending on the wind and/or current and then signals the foredeck person to pull the bowline in.

The person driving then has the option to continue the curved, opposed-thrust back-away from the dock to end up with the bow pointed in the other direction, or shifting the outside prop from forward to reverse and backing straight out at the angle chosen.

We do not do this maneuver slowly, particularly if there is a wind pushing us back onto the dock. The object is to get clear of the dock and the boat behind us as quickly as possible to ensure the wind does not push us back in against the boat or swing our bow downwind into the other boat.

This works every time, even with boats close behind and in front of us as it uses almost no lateral space along the dock.

The same maneuver works just as effectively in a single. However because the only force moving the stern out will be the prop in forward against the hard-over rudder, the person on the foredeck has a more critical role with the bow line and fender because the boat is really going to want to go forward and into the dock since there is no prop in reverse opposing the forward thrust.

Other than that, the maneuver is pretty much the same.

Marin said:

We have tried every method described on the planet to do this and none of them work with our twin-engine boat.

Walking the boat sideways--- bow, stern, bow, stern--- is very different than moving the boat straight sideways. Walking a boat sideways is very easy. We can even do it with a single engine, tiller-steered, 60' narrowboat.

But moving the boat laterally while remaining more or less parallel to the dock--- as though it had bow and stern thrusters operating together--- is virtually impossible with our kind of boat. We've even had expert boat handlers try their favorite theory with our boat on dead calm days-- none of them work.

Perhaps a boat like a Great Harbor with its twin props mounted almost at the outside corners of the stern for maximum leverage can achieve this maneuver. But a boat like ours with the props fairly close-in to the keel won't do it, even with its large rudders.

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I have tried to make our boat walk for the last eight years....ain't happening! Must be a GB thingy; twin props close together in combination with a deep keel???

Ted: Great idea, but High Wire has the directions. Note he uses Sb in reverse, as you suggest, but he is docking to starboard, not to port.

I use this technique frequently. It works well on my C&L 44. With the main entry door on the port side, I usually want to dock to port.

1 Wheel all the way over in the direction that would turn the bow away from the dock
2 Outside engine pushing both bow and stern towards the dock (if you imagine just the engines, no rudder, one in fwd and one in reverse, the outside one in fwd will push the bow to the dock. Now add full counter rudder, with max prop wash, the stern will also go towards the dock)
3 Inside engine in reverse, so although prop walk will try to pull the stern away from the dock, with no prop wash on the rudder, that effect will be minimal, and the boat will not move forward.
4 Correct by using only the gear changers, so with the bow approaching the dock slightly faster than the stern, a change to Inside in fwd and outside in reverse, for only a few seconds, will swing the stern in and the bow out. Then back to Inside rev, outside fwd.

I amazed myself the first time I tried this, by putting my boat in a space that was only a foot or two longer than its length, between double rafted boats ahead and behind. I wouldn't have tried the space if I had to angle in, as there wasn't enough room.

koliver said:

Ted: Great idea, but High Wire has the directions. Note he uses Sb in reverse, as you suggest, but he is docking to starboard, not to port.

I use this technique frequently. It works well on my C&L 44. With the main entry door on the port side, I usually want to dock to port.

1 Wheel all the way over in the direction that would turn the bow away from the dock
2 Outside engine pushing both bow and stern towards the dock (if you imagine just the engines, no rudder, one in fwd and one in reverse, the outside one in fwd will push the bow to the dock. Now add full counter rudder, with max prop wash, the stern will also go towards the dock)
3 Inside engine in reverse, so although prop walk will try to pull the stern away from the dock, with no prop wash on the rudder, that effect will be minimal, and the boat will not move forward.
4 Correct by using only the gear changers, so with the bow approaching the dock slightly faster than the stern, a change to Inside in fwd and outside in reverse, for only a few seconds, will swing the stern in and the bow out. Then back to Inside rev, outside fwd.

I amazed myself the first time I tried this, by putting my boat in a space that was only a foot or two longer than its length, between double rafted boats ahead and behind. I wouldn't have tried the space if I had to angle in, as there wasn't enough room.

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Unless there are high winds or ripping tidal current...angling in can get a boat into a foot either side...at that point it's just the skipper. Sliding sideways in current or wind isn't easy either in most vessels.

It is all what you are either used to or how practiced you are with the boat.

With a spring line, I will put a boat into places that most wouldn't even consider even with a twin screw unless they were using the spring line also.

This stuff ain't magic. Skippers have been doing it for decade after decade...some better than others and I am far what I would call a red hot boat handler.


But for 13 years I docked 2 boats at once in places most skippers wouldn't dare...and again I'm just fair to middlin'.

But angling or walking isn't much different...just practice...not hard science.

Please ...lets not try and tell new boaters to learn or strive for magic tricks when they are not.

Put the rudders to get the stern to go the way you want, then alternate fwd and rev on the two engines. Swap gears often enough to keep boat from rotating. Rev engine has less thrust than fwd, so either need to let that one linger in gear or give it a snort of power. If props are close or big keel or wind, you may need to use throttle to get boat to walk. If a big deep keel, or if there is current, or if lots of windage, the "walking" effect may be too small to do any good.

Boats with big rudders do better walking. If you have small rudders the boat will just want to turn the way the gears are set ignoring rudders so walking seems impossible. In that case try shifting in and out of gear so as to not overcome the rudders, You also get the benefit of the initial sideways thrust of the prop when put into gear. "Shift astern to push away" is a helpful mantra.
Even if you are angling into the dock you can slow the sterns approach to the dock with a shot of reverse on the dock side only.
Just because you have twins doesn't mean that you always must use both. I do a lot of maneuvering using one prop side or the other depending on what I want to happen.
Boats with tunnels are most difficult and maybe some boats just wont walk but since all boats have some side thrust from the prop you have that to work with.


For getting away from the dock if there is room ahead try rudder toward the dock and going ahead on only the dock side engine. The boat will push away from the dock while moving ahead.


Practice, practice and don't use too much power.

Thank you

eyschulman said:

What you say about amidships helm is true enough for ordinary maneuvers but for sideway motion the rudders become useful. Experiment with your helm all the way over with one engine bumped in forward and the other in reverse and see which way your boat moves. The trick is to find the balance between forward and astern bump that moves boat more sideways than turning. It usually takes multiple bumps and corrections and some boats do better than others I have seen twin engine boats without thrusters do a very credible job of going sideways and a boat with a bow thruster and this technique should do well.

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I'm always very open and glad to get interesting and well explained advices like yours is, so I will remember your reply and put it into practice the next time I would have to docking sideways.

Thank you,

Olivier

bayview said:

Boats with big rudders do better walking.

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This has been my experience. I used to own a Brand Banks 42 which I did not manage to move sideways using the technique described here whereas with my current boat, a Grand Banks 50, the technique works fairly well.

I believe the difference is the much larger rudders on the GB50.

bayview said:

Boats with big rudders do better walking.

Practice, practice and don't use too much power.

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While I agree practice is key, I actually have to use a fair amount of power.

What a beautiful GB 50' ! Built 1969 ? 1970 ?
I see your former 42' was fiberglass.

omc said:

What a beautiful GB 50' ! Built 1969 ? 1970 ?
I see your former 42' was fiberglass.

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Thank you. It is magnificent! It was built in 1973, one of the last ones built.

The 42 was a 1979 fibreglass boat, allso vey nice.

I found it pretty easy to do with our 24' express cruiser, a lot of steering and shifting but I could walk it sideways into a opening on a finger between 2 other boats. Our previous boat a 32' and the 38 we have now both have prop pockets and it's more difficult walking them, it can be done but needs some use of the throttles.


Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

Xlantic said:

This has been my experience. I used to own a Brand Banks 42 which I did not manage to move sideways using the technique described here whereas with my current boat, a Grand Banks 50, the technique works fairly well.

I believe the difference is the much larger rudders on the GB50.



While I agree practice is key, I actually have to use a fair amount of power.

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I wonder if it is a function, in part, to how close the rudders are to the props? I haven't had the experience or practice in our small ruddered motoryacht to try the walking maneuver yet, but seeing the pics you posted makes me wonder that if the rudders are virtually useless at directing thrust under the conditions needed to do something like walking.

Thoughts?

Even small rudders can work lf you shift in and out of gear

a little fwd momentum helps

The person who introduced me to this maneuver has a 60' old timer with a single rudder well aft of the props and twins. He could put that boat in places I would find difficult with my much smaller vessel. The single rudder is a good size.