Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Man, you guys can bit a bit ornery! Back to the original subject of this thread, please see below a short YouTube video which shows an Australian brand called SARCA out-performing a Rocna and a Manson on a beach pull test.

As you may have seen, Rocna promotes how much faster their anchor will set in a beach video vs. a CQR and other competitors, so this video should be of interest to them.


It seems like SARCA was copied by Rocna who was copied by Manson, so this reality series might be called "Anchor Drama from Down Under."

Brian-Fortress wrote:

It seems like SARCA was copied by Rocna who was copied by Manson, so this reality series might be called "Anchor Drama from Down Under."

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It gets worse.* I believe that SARCA copied the roll bar from the inventor of the Bruce.* I going back to my original belief that a submerged D9 CAT makes the best anchor.* As soon as I work out the bow roller, I'll post it on YouTube.

*

Delfin wrote:


Brian-Fortress wrote:

It seems like SARCA was copied by Rocna who was copied by Manson, so this reality series might be called "Anchor Drama from Down Under."

Click to expand...

It gets worse.* I believe that SARCA copied the roll bar from the inventor of the Bruce.* I going back to my original belief that a submerged D9 CAT makes the best anchor.* As soon as I work out the bow roller, I'll post it on YouTube.

*

CAT copied their blade from the plow.

*Don't know who the plow copied.* It must have been something.* There seems to be no originals.

Moonstruck wrote:" I'm going back to my original belief that a submerged D9 CAT makes the best anchor. "

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It might be, Don,* but Marin's comment on using a "basket full of rocks" seems to
be much more available and is certainly more economical to replace.

*

Dosn't look to me that anyone copied anything to get the Bruce.

Brian-Fortress wrote:It seems like SARCA was copied by Rocna who was copied by Manson, so this reality series might be called "Anchor Drama from Down Under."

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Actually that is not correct.* The first anchor to incorporate a roll bar was the Bügel in Germany which was developed sometime in the 1980s.* When Peter Smith in New Zealand started trying to figure out a better anchor for his own cruising purposes (he apparently had no thought of creating an anchor for commercial production) he combined features of other anchors he thought were good ideas and refined them.* He says he took the rollbar idea from the Bügel.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 5th of February 2011 10:54:13 AM

SeaHorse II wrote:


Moonstruck wrote:" I'm going back to my original belief that a submerged D9 CAT makes the best anchor. "

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It might be, Don,* but Marin's comment on using a "basket full of rocks" seems to
be much more available and is certainly more economical to replace.

*

Yeah, but it seems Delfin has unlimited funds.* BTW* Who holds the patent on rocks, and who did the basket copy?

*

The anchor basket was copied from an Egyptian design. Egypt still holds the rights to the design, and one of the lesser-known reasons for the current protests against the government is Mubarak's laxity in enforcing the collection of royalties on the anchor basket. This has contributed to the poor state of the Egyptian economy. The Greeks were not the only people to rip off the design. The Romans used it too, with refinements-- they reinforced the lip of the basket with a metal hoop and in later versions made the handle of the basket out of iron, as well.

The design also migrated over to Asia, where it was copied by both the Chinese and Japanese. In 1253, a Japanese fisherman, searching for a way to make a more reliable anchor, installed a short tapered cone in the bottom of an Egyptian anchor basket and a whole new generation of basket anchors was born. The idea behind the cone was to first ensure that the basket hit the seabed bottom down and then to help hold it upright so the basket would not tip over and spill out some of its rocks, a problem that had plagued this design from the outset. The cone was very effective but it made it difficult to stow the anchor on deck--- it kept falling over and spilling the rocks. So this same fisherman devised a short platform on the bow of his boat that had a hole near its outboard end. The basket sat on the platform with the cone projecting down through the hole. This kept the basket upright and in a position to be quickly deployed.

You can still see this feature on boats today. In Japan this platform was given the name "fujisake" meaning (literally) "an intoxicated Mt. Fuji" because of the upside down cone that fit into it. The English name for this platform is "pulpit." I don't know how this name evolved other than there is perhaps some resemblance to a pulpit in a church or chapel.

-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 5th of February 2011 11:41:04 AM

Marin,
Brian didn't even mention the roll bar. How could he be incorrect about the roll bar when he didn't even mention it?

Marin wrote that Smith said*** ..."He says he took the roll bar idea from the Bügel."

Are you saying we should believe what Peter Smith said? He has lots of opinion but I'd need more objective data to take that as fact. And thank you Marin for including "He says". But I do think your'e right that the roll bar came from the Bugel. I think the bar itself adds a lot of drag and the interference drag induced by the bar, fluke and the shape of the bar itself acts like the interference drag caused between the 2 wings of a biplane.
All of this drag adds very significantly to the holding power the surface area of the fluke so the sum total of the resistance is greater than most anchors. In view of the fact that the roll bar probably pitches the fluke upwards and prevents the fluke from burying completely or frequently very deep at all limits the holding power. I've never seen the Manson Supreme or the Rocna bury itself. I don't see how an anchor can be anywhere near the perfect anchor unless it does bury.

Well, the Bruce/claw types may not have the greatest holding power per pound of anchor, but*it has a well-earned reputation for performing in most conditions, sets easily, and usually stays buried*or resets itself to conform with boat movements due to changing currents/winds.

I read in a forum where Rex Francis, the inventor of the SARCA, has an entirely different spin on who knocked off who, but it was acknowledged on their web site that Bugel was the first.

At the end of the day it really doesn't matter much. Apparently, no patent rights were infringed upon between Bugel, SARCA, Rocna, or Manson....or none of the companies involved have the financial means to pursue legal action.....or maybe they are just not as "sue crazy" as we are here in the USA.

In any case, SARCA was given a good write up in the Nov. 2009 issue of Sailing Today, and apparently by the test results given below, one of their anchor models out-performed the Rocna and the Manson anchors by a wide margin:

http://www.anchorright.com.au/downlo...nchor-Test.pdf

Sailing Today were sure not very kind to the Rocna or Manson in that test write up: "A downside to scoop anchors with roll bars can be compression of the seabed into the scoop - if the anchor were to drag it can't be re-set without being cleaned."

The picture on page 2 illustrated their point, and I don't think you can argue with it.

Regards,
Brian

Fortress Marine Anchors

-- Edited by Brian-Fortress on Saturday 5th of February 2011 03:53:14 PM

Still laughing!!!!!!!!!!

SeaHorse II wrote:

Still laughing!!!!!!!!!!

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Walt, that was pretty good.

*

Da silence is deafening!

Brian,
Thanks for the comments and interesting hyperlink. I read it all and it didn't make me want to rush out and buy something but it was a great expansion of understanding. This test seemed to confirm my previous suspicions about the roll bars and how they inhibit burying keeping the anchor close to the surface. The most popular anchors on the Pacific coast (the Bruce and Danforth) were were rejected and since most all of us have much familiarity w them we were deprived of a good benchmark to compare the performance of the newer types. I agree w the author that the perfect anchor hasn't been developed yet.
This summer I will use and compare the Manson Supreme and the XYZ.

This has really gone far enough, but why would I let that stop me??? Bottom line for me is that no one anchor is the end all to anchoring. My idea of perfect would be having three anchors aboard. No particular three, but make sure they each have very different characteristics, that will cover all the different bottoms you might encounter. Personally, a Fortress would be a good start, then maybe a Rocna, and any other for the third. But I'm not locked on those, and would feel fine leaving the dock with any combination of three different anchors.

If the first one doesn't set, try another, and then the third. Somewhere along the way, one will set. IMHO!!!


-- Edited by Carey on Saturday 5th of February 2011 10:26:54 PM

And if that doesn't work throw the lot of them over somthin's gotta grab.

Benn

Tidahapah wrote:

And if that doesn't work throw the lot of them over somthin's gotta grab.

Benn

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Yah baby!!!

*

As the only one on this forum with a Sarca anchor, (and I'm not being smug here), my case rests. The test link Brian posted is quite impressive, and the way she performs fits with that. However, I have to agree that probably the perfect anchor has yet to be designed, and probably will never be, because of all the variables many have mentioned. However, if I was given the option of being only able to take one multipurpose anchor, nothing has happened, or come up in the posts, or been demonstrated in tests - by anyone - to convince me to choose other than the Sarca. (And Eric, it buries to the top of the hoop and beyond no trouble (it's thinner than the others) at all I can assure you, and that is heaps deep enough.)
I think you Northern Hemi people are being denied a good option, and I am going to ring Sarca (Anchor Right) come Monday to find out why they don't have a US or UK agent?
But Eric, please do yourself a favour and accept the obvious. To anchor a 30 ft 8 tonne boat properly, with adequate ground tackle, with no power winch to assist you, is like trying to push a rock up hill. In fact I'd go so far as to say it's nigh impossible, without causing so many compromises as to fray the nerves. The fact you would even think of using an anchor with no anti-chafe protection from a goodly length of chain, let alone the contribution of same to maintaining set, really worries me, and I'm saying this out of real concern. I think you have made no secret of the fact you are in your early 70s, and hey, I'm only 64, but I would not have it on. Please get a winch and a decent weighted set-up.....please......I'm concerned you are going to try to defy the laws of physics once too often...or have a heart attack trying....?

Hi Peter,
I've been down the dangerous road of life for a long time. Hang gliders, motorcycles,* 20' seas in Dixon Entrance and other stuff I didn't tell my mother about but you could get into all kinds of trouble anchoring w all the right stuff too. I AM going to get a winch as the anchors I've been focused on will need a bit of chain or equivalent weight so it's unlikely I'd be able to pull by hand. Never heard from Anchor Right.

Yeah? Well I'm going to take them to task over that too Eric. Least they might have done is get back to you, unless maybe it didn't get through for some reason. Maybe their head office was flood/cyclone affected...? Just trying to be charitable. I will let you know. Relieved to hear you are going power winch.

Now Peter B careful what you say I have a SARCA Excel and as you know they test better than the Super SARCA the man said so in his tests.
A bit down in the soft sand but then we try not to go there. I'm a hard bottom man myself.
Yeah a bit far south in Victoria to be cyclone affected but then flood affected in the last few days is a possibility.
Benn

-- Edited by Tidahapah on Sunday 6th of February 2011 02:10:28 AM

Eric:

The fishing guides out of Angoon use these.
E-Z Anchor Puller Mfg.


EZ Anchor Puller


Works with both rope & chain combo rodes.

Marin wrote:

*
2bucks wrote:
Minus winds? Well outside the envelope on the low side of a 5mph wind. That's an amazing concept.

*

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Conversing with you is like conversing with a two year old.* No ability to grasp concepts any more complex than putting the square peg in the square hole.

Quality post Marin.

If a forecast is 25-35 mph and a local wind is 5 mph, that is "well outside the envelope" on the downside.* Now you're going to come back with a nickel-and-dime statement that we were talking about 5 to 15 so "well outside the envelope" on the downside is a minus wind and there's no such thing.* Well, duhhhh.* That, as Eric says, is fly stuff.*

Marin wrote on Feb 3, 6:27pm "I would have thought that in 32 years of cruising you would have figured out that "5-15"* is an average area prediction and that the winds in a specific location can be well outside that envelope on either side."
*
That's YOUR example and YOUR words. YOU said it. Proofread your own material Mr. Book Writer. Can't you even see the foolishness of your own words?

The point is that the wind in the islands can vary widely from the forecast average so you cannot assume that if they say 5-15 or 25-30 or 300-450 that that is what the wind everywhere is going to be, which is counter to your "you can always count on the forecast" implication.* You can get caught out in high winds and rough water even though the overall forecast is much more benign.

Again you put quotes around a phrase, supposedly attributing it to me, which I didn't say. This appears to be a bad habit of yours, lying about what others say. When you quote someone and then change the meaning of their words to suit your selfish ego that is wrong. This brings into question all your "expert" regurgitations which you pepper throughout the forums. If you can't get a quote right when it's in print, how could we possibly trust what you say someone told you. This is the second time you've lied about what I said by quoting on a forum.

And nobody, including your precious forecasters, had a clue this was coming.*

I believe it was you who name dropped Jeff Renner with his marvelous presentation and you*told us*how knowledgeable he was.

and they told us that boats started dragging all over the bay when this blew in.*

Why should we believe anything you say when you can't quote written words properly? You're proving something because someone told you, once upon a time?

Your condescention is boring Marin.*I normally ignore you and your wild ravings about what someone told*you once,*and*you know it's the only way something could be done. Or you babble about how*you read a 20 year old book one time and it's the only authority in the world. I say nonsense.


Sorry that you don't like me, but I'm here. I was boating*here before you by a long ways and I'll be boating here when you're dead and gone. Get over it, stop lying about what I post, and go to your corner until you can be nice.

Respectfully yours,
Ken



*


-- Edited by 2bucks on Sunday 6th of February 2011 10:23:52 AM

Peter B wrote:

As the only one on this forum with a Sarca anchor, (and I'm not being smug here), my case rests. The test link Brian posted is quite impressive, and the way she performs fits with that. However, I have to agree that probably the perfect anchor has yet to be designed, and probably will never be, because of all the variables many have mentioned.

Click to expand...

Peter,

I am impressed by what is written on the FAQ page at the SARCA web site.

http://www.anchorright.com.au/about-us/faq

They acknowledge that there is no perfect anchor, which is quite obvious, but it is still refreshing coming from another anchor manufacturer. I am not sure waterboard torture could get the Rocna guy to admit that simple fact.

Be safe,
Brian

Fortress Marine Anchors

*

Brian, what are your thoughts on tandem anchoring?

Delfin,

Tandem anchoring was a hot topic a few years ago. I discussed it then with a couple of well experienced anchoring gurus, our owner Don Hallerberg and ES "Mac" Maloney, longtime author of Chapman's, and they thought the main issue would be properly setting both anchors.

They did not believe that tandem anchoring offered any significant advantage over other proven methods, such as simply upsizing for storm conditions to "the biggest damn anchor that your boat can handle."

We are located in south Florida and a hurricane region, and Bahamian mooring has a proven success rate. The post-hurricane success stories I hear all have multiple anchor, Bahamian mooring-type deployments....and I have yet to hear one mention tandem anchoring, so I gotta go with what I know.

I will follow up with a copy of a cover story that Tom Neale wrote in Soundings magazine titled "How to Survive a Storm at Anchor" for your review.

Regards,
Brian

Fortress Marine Anchors



-- Edited by Brian-Fortress on Sunday 6th of February 2011 07:25:05 PM

-- Edited by Brian-Fortress on Sunday 6th of February 2011 07:26:20 PM

2bucks wrote:

Respectfully yours,
Ken

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When you master the ability to interpret what you read* correctly, we can talk about respect.* But do keep trying.* You'll find the effort is well worth it.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Sunday 6th of February 2011 08:45:07 PM

Brian wrote:

"They acknowledge that there is no perfect anchor,"

How could they not as they make at least 5 different types that I know of. They seem to be throwing them out to see which one survives and of course being a manufacturer the style that sells best is the best anchor. Welcome to Manson R&D.

Marin and Ken,
Go sit in the corner and take special care not to sit in the same corner.