"Added" Ballast - Good or Bad

Wxx3 · Jan 18, 2016

Art said:
IMO - As long as hull design and shape / superstructure design / interior parcels' locations / bilge-equipment & storage-spaces / engines / tankage / furnishings / as well as "fixed" initial ballast (i.e. what the designers engineered into a boat) are all taken into the "weight account" of a vessel while designing and building... then there should be no need for "added" ballast by the owner to then establish correct trim needs.

Being the thread starter and OP here I've been amused at some of the posts offered. My intended definition of "added" ballast was not what the original boat design engineers had in place as "fixed" ballast (i.e. trim weight in keel or other location)... but rather it means just as the thread title states ADDED ballast... meaning ballast that a boat owner ADDS in guess and by god test sequences because the original boat design was not ample to properly trim or maneuver the boat.

Additionally, it seems that there must be some way to figure out how to (if it is truly necessary) "add" ballast via placement of new or redistribution of existing features in the boat that can further enhance useful/usable conditions in and about the boat. The placement of lead bars, concrete sacks, bird shot sacks, poured concrete squares just seems soooo non productive regarding usage of such limited space inside a boat.

I can't help but wonder why most if not all of the high quality production boat manufacturers' boats seldom if ever had substantial trim problems wherein "added" ballast was required to properly trim their boats. Could it be high quality engineering procedures as well as ample prototype-boat tests to make sure all weight positioning increments are sufficiently handled before major production numbers of boats came off the line?

I believe boats should be designed with no need for owners to "add" ballast to produce correct trim and handling conditions. Especially with modern computer assist design programs!

Clearly, it's because of the 3 bladed prop.

Though it could also be the anchor.

Wait, maybe it's an issue of needing a stern line, but then that depends on whether the line is flat or braided.

Now, if it's braided flat line, then 2507 pounds of ballast must be added 22.73 feet from the anchor.

But if it's a Rocha, made with Chinese steel, subtract 8.3 lbs of ballast and move the ballast 1.3 feet to starboard.

Unless, you have an off center queen berth, as I do. If that's the case, you must get one of those fuel splatter shield from Hopcar. Then, remember to only fuel on odd numbered days.

Though, if you need fuel on an even numbered day. That's no problem as long as you change all the above numbers by 1.64%.

So, just multiply the above by 1.0164 ,
But if you do that, it's better to get fuel on a Saturday. As there is less bio additives at week end.

Unless you are buying fuel from a location that celebrates the sabbath on Saturday, not sunday.

Then, just move the ballast aft 4.2 feet, and redo all the above.

I hope that helps.

gehales · Jan 18, 2016

Well said!

Art · Jan 19, 2016

Wxx3 said:
Clearly, it's because of the 3 bladed prop.

Though it could also be the anchor.

Wait, maybe it's an issue of needing a stern line, but then that depends on whether the line is flat or braided.

Now, if it's braided flat line, then 2507 pounds of ballast must be added 22.73 feet from the anchor.

But if it's a Rocha, made with Chinese steel, subtract 8.3 lbs of ballast and move the ballast 1.3 feet to starboard.

Unless, you have an off center queen berth, as I do. If that's the case, you must get one of those fuel splatter shield from Hopcar. Then, remember to only fuel on odd numbered days.

Though, if you need fuel on an even numbered day. That's no problem as long as you change all the above numbers by 1.64%.

So, just multiply the above by 1.0164 ,
But if you do that, it's better to get fuel on a Saturday. As there is less bio additives at week end.

Unless you are buying fuel from a location that celebrates the sabbath on Saturday, not sunday.

Then, just move the ballast aft 4.2 feet, and redo all the above.

I hope that helps.

:lol:

psneeld · Jan 19, 2016

Amazing that pet theories/opinions used to describe some normal boat issues are amplified to make a big deal out of things that often deal in the single digit percents...sometimes in the tenths of a percent.

OK...even if these ideas, opinions, theories, whatever do affect one's boat...even entire classes of boats....it doesn't mean it affects all boats in the same way or even skippers in the same way.

Tad posted that at displacement speeds, running a bit bow down is more economical yet a bit unsightly. Well....many skipper's I know will try and trim that out....who wants an ugly boat? Yet other's will let it ride for the sake of economy. Neither is right or wrong...so adding ballast is neither right or wrong DESPITE what others may "feel". AND, it is within the designers original concept...go figure.

So beat your heads against the wall trying to convince others about things that are neither right or wrong, don't affect everyone, and in most matters don't matter a smidgeon less than fly poop....but then again...tis TF..... :rofl:

what_barnacles · Jan 19, 2016

manyboats said:
Use your imagination.

You mean like this Eric?

Wxx3 said:
Clearly, it's because of the 3 bladed prop.

Though it could also be the anchor.

Wait, maybe it's an issue of needing a stern line, but then that depends on whether the line is flat or braided.

Now, if it's braided flat line, then 2507 pounds of ballast must be added 22.73 feet from the anchor.

But if it's a Rocha, made with Chinese steel, subtract 8.3 lbs of ballast and move the ballast 1.3 feet to starboard.

Unless, you have an off center queen berth, as I do. If that's the case, you must get one of those fuel splatter shield from Hopcar. Then, remember to only fuel on odd numbered days.

Though, if you need fuel on an even numbered day. That's no problem as long as you change all the above numbers by 1.64%.

So, just multiply the above by 1.0164 ,
But if you do that, it's better to get fuel on a Saturday. As there is less bio additives at week end.

Unless you are buying fuel from a location that celebrates the sabbath on Saturday, not sunday.

Then, just move the ballast aft 4.2 feet, and redo all the above.

I hope that helps.

psneeld · Jan 19, 2016

manyboats said:
barnacles,
The battery was just an off the wall example of something heavy. If you've got a bigger boat move more batteries or something heavier. Use your imagination.

Mark,
Coot's probably heavy enough (like Willy) so add (if you must) 200' of line instead of 100' of chain. More useful.
Where do you go in the Bay area that you need extra fuel?

Not necessarily for everyone. That is YOUR opinion...not fact.

Most with all chain will have whatever chain they need for normal, convenient anchoring. For those once in a blue moon time....cruisers will add more chain stored someplace else (otherwise it would just be part of their everyday rode) or attach a nylon extension.

But to keep harping that your opinion somehow is "better" or "more useful" just makes every cruiser I discuss it with just shake their head...even the guys who use combo rodes and understand why others use all chain because of choices not even close to using the words "more useful".

Nomad Willy · Jan 19, 2016

psneeld you seem to be of the opinion that if it's my opinion it's not fact. Well obviously that's YOUR opinion.

I refer you to the recent anchoring thread.

psneeld · Jan 19, 2016

And that thread is the final word?

Seems to me.... others place more importance on other aspects of anchoring than just MAX holding.

Therefore your emphasis on what you think is important is possibly for them and for sure meaningless for my boat.

I don't think your opinions are wrong...just not applicable all the time or for all vessels... therefore I try to make sure those trying to learn about boats get all sides.

Art · Jan 19, 2016

I have to agree with psneeld - in that - The Newbies need to hear every side of every boating story. Cumulatively there are many hundred very experienced mariners, thousands of different boat types owned now or previously by we experienced mariners, and a gazillion different things that happened to chat about and maybe hope to teach a bit and surely hope to learn a bit... no matter how many decades we've been on the water.

FF · Jan 20, 2016

"I have to agree with psneeld - in that - The Newbies need to hear every side of every boating story. Cumulatively there are many hundred very experienced mariners, thousands of different boat types owned now or previously by we experienced mariners, and a gazillion different things that happened to chat about and maybe hope to teach a bit and surely hope to learn a bit... no matter how many decades we've been on the water."

BUT, BUT, BUT , the broker said it would be fine!

sunchaser · Jan 20, 2016

Art said:
I have to agree with psneeld - in that - The Newbies need to hear every side of every boating story. .

Most newbies would have given out a long time ago after deciding a guy like Tad Roberts is the one to listen to.

RT's picture of the big guys clearly illustrates the importance of trim on a smaller planing boat. Just go to Montauk (or Key West, San Diego etc) early on a Saturday morning to see creative ways to load big guys, gear and beer into a Grady White.

Deano · Jan 25, 2016

I've been considering adding ballast to correct a list to starboard our Gulfstar has. The gennie, hot water tank and waste tank are all to starboard. Three 8D's are the only counterweight to port. I think a fourth 8D may help. If not I wanted it anyway.

what_barnacles · Jan 25, 2016

Deano said:
I've been considering adding ballast to correct a list to starboard our Gulfstar has. The gennie, hot water tank and waste tank are all to starboard. Three 8D's are the only counterweight to port. I think a fourth 8D may help. If not I wanted it anyway.

Do you let the waste tank sit full for extended periods?

Deano · Jan 25, 2016

No. We have an MSD.

rwidman · Jan 25, 2016

Deano said:
I've been considering adding ballast to correct a list to starboard our Gulfstar has. The gennie, hot water tank and waste tank are all to starboard. Three 8D's are the only counterweight to port. I think a fourth 8D may help. If not I wanted it anyway.

I think if you're going to add weight to your boat it should serve a useful purpose besides dead weight.

If you have spare anchors, chain or props, they can be moved to help correct a list as well.

psneeld · Jan 25, 2016

Ballast IS dead weight...effectively used to counter list, fore/aft trim or lack of depth.

Movable boat components aren't really ballast...but certainly should be considered first unless additional weigh to float on her lines is required anyway.

Adding extra batteries or relocating existing certainly is a useful way of trimming if possible....but in some cases a small amount of "deadweight" in the right spot may be better than any other solution.

Art · Jan 25, 2016

psneeld said:
Ballast IS dead weight...effectively used to counter list, fore/aft trim or lack of depth.

Movable boat components aren't really ballast...but certainly should be considered first unless additional weigh to float on her lines is required anyway.

Adding extra batteries certainly is a useful way of trimming if possible.

Extra batts are always very usable and often a welcome energy-item-required giving added weight... Repositioning of additional/new installations of furniture, coolers, fridge/freezer, tools, spare parts, more water/fuel, dry food storage, lines/chains, anchors, dink and/or it's small motor, fishing gear, BBQ and propane, closet areas, galley equipment, swim/scuba goods, fenders, tables/chairs... ... ... ...

Point I'm making here is that there are many, many useable/needed items that can be positioned as "useful-ballast" weight without bring in "dead-ballast" weight such as concrete, lead, bricks and the like. As we all know it does not take very much weight shift to change a boat's cantor regarding horizontal beam-level. Moving 100 lbs equal-distance from port to stbd = 200 lb axis change regarding boat-beam ballance in the water. Balancing act for trim of bow to stern can entail a bit higher net weight percentage of weight transfer. But, the axis 2X weight trim multiple is same when moving equal-distance from the axis.

Something as simple as where persons sit or sleep can at times do a lot for trim adjustments

psneeld · Jan 25, 2016

Actually NOT....some of our boats are laid out and we have decided what stays goes, and where it's gonna be stored.

A guy with 8 batteries on board...may not want any more...or it may take 5 more batteries at 150 pounds a piece to equal 200 pounds of ballast in the right spot as opposed to where the batteries would go. Dead weight ballast also may not affect stability as much as adding batteries if they could only go in higher places.

So NO....just moving crap around ISN'T the only answer for many of our boats which are more displacement than anything (or at least run in that mode most of the time)...sometimes dead weight ballast IS the best answer. I just gave an example that should make one TF member proud of actually keeping weight off a boat but trim it better.

This is completely insane....sure..... adjust cargo and systems when it makes sense...use dead weight ballast when it makes sense...if anyone thinks it is always best to never use dead weight ballast on a boat that is run in displacement mode then fine....I am out of breath and ideas to convey one of the most basic boating concepts.

I will concede that if you run your boat in semi-planning or planning often enough...then yes...break out the chainsaw and make it happen...

There is no POINT to be made...it takes a COMPLETE NEWBIE to not get any of this...the first time any of us that loaded a small boat either learned the easy way or the wet way....IT IS JUST NOT THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Second beer with lunch is my excuse and I am sticking with it....

Art · Jan 25, 2016

I SORTA AGREE WITH YOU!! < - - All Caps for ya, similar to ya... please notice.

:lol:

Nomad Willy · Jan 25, 2016

Art,
Extra batts aren't good if the're not needed.

You only "Sorta agree" with him? What's not to like? I think he's 100% correct ... except the two beers for lunch. I'd give him credit when it's due.

When I worked at Uniflite I moved things arount to achieve trim but I never added dead weight ballast to a Uni.

catalinajack · Jan 27, 2016

psneeld said:
Actually NOT....some of our boats are laid out and we have decided what stays goes, and where it's gonna be stored.

A guy with 8 batteries on board...may not want any more...or it may take 5 more batteries at 150 pounds a piece to equal 200 pounds of ballast in the right spot as opposed to where the batteries would go. Dead weight ballast also may not affect stability as much as adding batteries if they could only go in higher places.

So NO....just moving crap around ISN'T the only answer for many of our boats which are more displacement than anything (or at least run in that mode most of the time)...sometimes dead weight ballast IS the best answer. I just gave an example that should make one TF member proud of actually keeping weight off a boat but trim it better.

This is completely insane....sure..... adjust cargo and systems when it makes sense...use dead weight ballast when it makes sense...if anyone thinks it is always best to never use dead weight ballast on a boat that is run in displacement mode then fine....I am out of breath and ideas to convey one of the most basic boating concepts.

I will concede that if you run your boat in semi-planning or planning often enough...then yes...break out the chainsaw and make it happen...

There is no POINT to be made...it takes a COMPLETE NEWBIE to not get any of this...the first time any of us that loaded a small boat either learned the easy way or the wet way....IT IS JUST NOT THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Second beer with lunch is my excuse and I am sticking with it....

This is just plain common sense. Even a cave man would get it.

ulysses · Jan 27, 2016

111 posts including Mr. Roberts and not one mention of Metacentric Height (GM) almost unbelievable.

psneeld · Jan 27, 2016

Why would most of us smaller boat rec guys discuss the fancy term?

Unless you do the testing to figure out the baseline numbers and plug them into a formula...it's all trial and error anyway as described in several posts.

The theory/formula use is discussed by many posts by the term "common sense".

Art · Jan 27, 2016

psneeld said:
Actually NOT....some of our boats are laid out and we have decided what stays goes, and where it's gonna be stored.

A guy with 8 batteries on board...may not want any more...or it may take 5 more batteries at 150 pounds a piece to equal 200 pounds of ballast in the right spot as opposed to where the batteries would go. Dead weight ballast also may not affect stability as much as adding batteries if they could only go in higher places.

There is no POINT to be made...it takes a COMPLETE NEWBIE to not get any of this...the first time any of us that loaded a small boat either learned the easy way or the wet way....IT IS JUST NOT THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Second beer with lunch is my excuse and I am sticking with it....

manyboats said:
Art,
Extra batts aren't good if the're not needed.

You only "Sorta agree" with him? What's not to like? I think he's 100% correct ... except the two beers for lunch. I'd give him credit when it's due.

When I worked at Uniflite I moved things arount to achieve trim but I never added dead weight ballast to a Uni.

Eric - I stopped drinking over 20 yrs. ago.... Soooo, I just can't agree with everything he said (see his bear statement in bold above)! :lol: That's why I placed the "Sorta agree with him" clause into my reply. Otherwise I do agree with psneeld 99.99% - being a boy, I just gotta leave a little room for wiggle! :dance:

Happy Boat-Ballast Daze! - Art :speed boat:

PS: Two beers not so much - However, three to four beers at lunch can provide a "daze" such as I often refer to regarding various marine genera. It is said... one good drink can lead to another... until the word "good" is replaced with "fun" which may too often lead to the saying "Holy Shat", I've lost count!

"Added" Ballast - Good or Bad

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