Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Hey Walt,
I kinda figured you'd be plow'in along here in rocket science class. No sweat Walt** ...you're all set as I recall. But I'll bet Mark's about ready to make a post like yours.
Brian if some of us should want a Fortress (anodized I assume) can you show us some bow chocks and/or rollers so we could stow them on the bow like a Bruce? Walt would need chrome plating of course. How a bout colored ano** ..blue or gold.

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Tuesday 1st of February 2011 06:02:46 PM

_______________________________________________________________
We are committing "mental masturbation" on this subject and only proving that you need the "heaviest" anchor your windlass will handle.* (big rocks in a basket)* Regardless of what the bottom is, "big rocks in a basket" should hold.*

Click to expand...

Or "Analysis Paralysis."* Kind of like a discussion about the "Perfect Woman."* Worthwhile, yes.....but would a consensus be ever reached?* Doubtful.
Talk about the Greeks with "big rocks in a basket,"......well have a look at the first Fortress anchor (attachments below).

Ain't she a beauty!

Brian

Fortress Marine Anchors

Thanks for your professional attitude, Brian.* I hope I don't have to use your product as I carry it as a storm anchor but if I do, I know it will perform as described.

Brian,
Thanks for the candid answers about the strengths and weaknesses of your product. Our lunch hook is a hinged plow- but I swap out for my Fortress anytime we overnight. It is a great product for our sand/ mud bottoms.

nomadwilly wrote:

*No sweat Walt** ...you're all set as I recall. But I'll bet Mark's about ready to make a post like yours.

Click to expand...

*

Brian-Fortress wrote:


I believe that one of the reasons why you do not see more Danforth types mounted on bows is because of their gangly appearance

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I think it depends on where you are. Danforth-type anchors seem very common on boats in the SFO Bay area.* It's what was on our boat when we bought it out of Alameda and I noticed other boats in the marina where it was kept had Danforth-types too.* But SFO Bay*and the Sacramento river and delta are mostly mud bottoms I believe, so a Danforth type is an ideal design for that area.* The heavy*Danforth knock-off that was on our boat stowed very nicely on the*pulpit, by the way although the anchor's stock had knocked chips out of the gelcoat all the way up the stem as it revolved during retrieval.* Not a problem on a boat with a longer pulpit or raked bow.

From what I hear the*issue with Danforth-type*anchors up here, at least in the smaller, lighter sizes most of us use, is that they are not*as good as*other types in weedy bottoms, which we get a lot of, and coarse gravelly bottoms, which we also get a lot of.* I've heard lots of stories related*about rocks or other bottom debris getting caught in the flukes of a Danforth-type and preventing it from setting very well or at all.* This doesn't seem to be much of a problem with Bruce/claw, CQR/plow, or Rocna/Manson/spade anchors.

Marin wrote:

...*Danforth-type anchors seem very common on boats in the SFO Bay area.* It's what was on our boat when we bought it out of Alameda and I noticed other boats in the marina where it was kept had Danforth-types too.* But SFO Bay*and the Sacramento river and delta are mostly mud bottoms I believe, so a Danforth type is an ideal design for that area.*

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I got tired of pulling up a "ton" of sticky SF Bay mud with the Danforth, and didn't appreciate getting my hands pinched carrying it*to/from the bow for deployment/retrieval.* A one-piece, smaller-fluked Bruce/claw worked well enough without the inconveniences.

*

Here's a shot of the anchor that's presently on my bow. It's a 20kg Force SS. Doesn't it look great? I've had many compliments on it and it goes quite well with the chain stopper and Muir Atlantic 1000RC. What do I use when I anchor? Depends on the bottom as I carry a 15kg Danforth and a 15kg Bruce. Oh, and I use a swivel!

SeaHorse II wrote:

Here's a shot of the anchor that's presently on my bow. It's a 20kg Force SS. Doesn't it look great? I've had many compliments on it and it goes quite well with the chain stopper and Muir Atlantic 1000RC. What do I use when I anchor? Depends on the bottom as I carry a 15kg Danforth and a 15kg Bruce. Oh, and I use a swivel!

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Very stylish, Walt.* I would sure like to see it swivel!

*

Marin,
I hear Rocna's and Manson Supreme's get rocks and other stuff stuck in the hole defined by the roll bar. Better set your anchor hard and if it drags***** ...could be there's stuff in the hole.

SeaHorse II wrote:

Here's a shot of the anchor that's presently on my bow. It's a 20kg Force SS. Doesn't it look great?

Click to expand...

Yes it does.* It goes well with your "Cary Grant"*slim, suave*cruiser.* On the other hand, my "Ernest Borgnine" fat, ugly (but handsome in its own rugged way)*trawler*should go well with*a galvanized version.

*

nomadwilly wrote:Marin,

I hear Rocna's and Manson Supreme's get rocks and other stuff stuck in the hole defined by the roll bar. Better set your anchor hard and if it drags***** ...could be there's stuff in the hole.
________________________________________
Eric, you never said a truer word.* The only two times my Sarca dragged was once when we dropped her on pure smooth rock, and the rumble as we dragged spilled the beans straight away, and once when by pure fluke (no pun intended), she gathered up, off a fairly firm sand/gravel bottom, one huge rock.* It must have been sitting proud on the bottom, and it got scooped up in such a way it was literally balanced on the fluke just touching one side of the roll bar.* However, it was no drama because even in light current/wind situation, we clearly dragged immediately, so I smelt a rat straight away and pulled her up, wondering why the winch was almost labouring until this rock appeared.* A light touch with my toe sent it plunging, we re-dropped the pick, and all was well.*
The point being with these roll-bar sharp-fluked type of anchors, they either set immediately, or there is something significant which prevents it, and it becomes clear virtually immediately, so remedial action can be taken long before one might be bedding down.
Coming back to one comment you made re your Manson Supreme - your said it sets quickly, but does not feel firmly set sometimes.* It might be you are cranking away in reverse trying to set it like a plough would need, but it does not need that.* In so doing you might just be pulling it along just under the surface of the bottom.* These anchors really are best left to largely set my themselves with just the natual pull of wind and tide after just a wee tug to get the point down and in.* Then over time they burrow deeper.* Maybe you should try that approach with your M/S again some time and see if I'm right?

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*

Marin wrote:


2bucks wrote:

Perhaps someone could document when the last hurricane force winds came thru the Puget Sound? Or even the last time we saw winds over 50 mph that weren't forcast in advance, giving recreational boaters the chance to seek shelter.

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Last winter (or possibly the winter before, I don't remember the date) the highest gust recorded in the Bellingham Bay area was 84 mph.* The sustained winds were some 60 mph or more.* The data I saw for this was recorded by the anemometer on the roof of Bellingham Cold Storage in Squalicum Marina but the same winds were recorded by other stations in the same area and on either side of Rosario Strait on both Lummi and Orcas islands.* It happens, and in the northern Sound, at any rate, winds higher than forecast are not uncommon at all.* It was exactly this sort of occurance that caused us such grief back when we had our Bruce.

One of the problems with forecasting winds in the islands (we were told by KING-TV meteorologist Jeff Renner who taught the weather class in the USCG Auxilliary boating class we took) is that the conditions created by the proximity and configuration of the islands, bays, channels, and passes in the San Juans and Gulfs can accelerate or decelerate winds in a way that is totally unpredictable and unforecastable (if that's a word).* So where the average wind in the northern waters may be 30 mph, there can be certain passes between islands where the winds can be almost twice that, and other passes where the winds may be almost calm.

It not ucnommon to go out on a typical day when the overall northern waters wind forecast calls for SW winds @ 5-15 knots and you find four foot waves in Bellingham Bay driven by 20-25 knot winds.* Turn the corner into Rosario Strait and it's 1 to 2-foot waves and 10 knots.



-- Edited by Marin on Monday 31st of January 2011 02:28:53 AM
So you didn't document when it was, "Last winter (or possibly the winter before, I don't remember the date)".


And*by knowing about the wind behaving differently in certain areas, then you agree that they can be predicted and avoided. You did say that it was "common" and that Jeff Renner told you about it in advance.

I didn't think we'd ever agree on anything.

Ken

2bucks wrote:

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1.* So you didn't document when it was, "Last winter (or possibly the winter before, I don't remember the date)".


2.* And*by knowing about the wind behaving differently in certain areas, then you agree that they can be predicted and avoided. You did say that it was "common" and that Jeff Renner told you about it in advance.

*
1.* I didn't document it because that's not my job.* It is presumably in the data at the Bellingham Cold Storage weather station and since it was blowing hard there it was undoubtedly blowing hard up the airport only a few miles away so I suspect the weather weenies have a record of it too.

2.* The fact that it CAN blow at different speeds through the islands and DOES blow at* different speeds though the islands is a lot different than knowing exactly HOW HARD it will blow in any given place and WHERE all the different* speeds will be.* In oher words, the winds down amongst the islands are unpredictable, which is what Renner said.* Now what part of the word "unpredictable" do you not understand so I can help you out?

If it was predictable, they'd tell us what the wind will be in Thatcher Pass and Lopez Pass and Upright Channel and Obstruction Pass and around Prevost Island and down through Montegue.* But they don't.* Why?* Because it's totally unpredictable (sorry, there's that big word again).* They can forecast the basic wind speed for the whole area, but not what it will be down in the individual passes and bays.

And since factors like water temperature, land mass temperature, air temperature, humidity and pressure all affect wind speeds and direction, it can't even be accurately guessed at what it will blow in all these places.** So you can say, it's usually real windy and rough in Lopez Pass under such-and-such conditions, and then one day under those conditions you assume it will be real windy and rough and you get there to find that Lopez Pass is almost dead calm.* Or the other way round.* This has happened to us countless times all through the islands.* I realize it's a hard concept to grasp, unpredictability, but that's what it is.

*

Marin wrote:


2bucks wrote:

Click to expand...

1.* So you didn't document when it was, "Last winter (or possibly the winter before, I don't remember the date)".


2.* And*by knowing about the wind behaving differently in certain areas, then you agree that they can be predicted and avoided. You did say that it was "common" and that Jeff Renner told you about it in advance.

*
1.* I didn't document it because that's not my job.* It is presumably in the data at the Bellingham Cold Storage weather station and since it was blowing hard there it was undoubtedly blowing hard up the airport only a few miles away so I suspect the weather weenies have a record of it too.

2.* The fact that it CAN blow at different speeds through the islands and DOES blow at* different speeds though the islands is a lot different than knowing exactly HOW HARD it will blow in any given place and WHERE all the different* speeds will be.* In oher words, the winds down amongst the islands are unpredictable, which is what Renner said.* Now what part of the word "unpredictable" do you not understand so I can help you out?

If it was predictable, they'd tell us what the wind will be in Thatcher Pass and Lopez Pass and Upright Channel and Obstruction Pass and around Prevost Island and down through Montegue.* But they don't.* Why?* Because it's totally unpredictable (sorry, there's that big word again).* They can forecast the basic wind speed for the whole area, but not what it will be down in the individual passes and bays.

And since factors like water temperature, land mass temperature, air temperature, humidity and pressure all affect wind speeds and direction, it can't even be accurately guessed at what it will blow in all these places.** So you can say, it's usually real windy and rough in Lopez Pass under such-and-such conditions, and then one day under those conditions you assume it will be real windy and rough and you get there to find that Lopez Pass is almost dead calm.* Or the other way round.* This has happened to us countless times all through the islands.* I realize it's a hard concept to grasp, unpredictability, but that's what it is.

*

I never realized how absolutely foolhardy and dangerous it was to cruise the islands. For 32 years I've been cruising between Olympia on the south end and the Broughtons on the north, and never knew that. I'd always used the general forcast to get a general idea of what winds to expect.

Your post seems to indicate that even if it's calm with a light breeze in one area, there may be hurricane force wind in another a mile away because the wind is, what's the phrase again? Oh yes, it's "Because it's totally unpredictable"

I wonder why the newscasts do that. They give a forcast of "5-15 mph winds from the south"*for an area and they know perfectly well that "water temperature, land mass temperature, air temperature, humidity and pressure" will affect the wind and that it won't be even remotely accurate. Hmmmm.......*
And one more thing, thanks for explaining those big words for me.

2bucks wrote:

1. ....because the wind is, what's the phrase again? Oh yes, it's "Because it's totally unpredictable"

2. And one more thing, thanks for explaining those big words for me.

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1.* Hey, you finally got it!* I'm impressed.* I would have thought that in 32 years of cruising you would have figured out that "5-15"* is an average area prediction and that the winds in a specific location can be well outside that envelope on either side.* But then perhaps you didn't have the benefit of Jeff Renner explaining it to you, so I*can understand your confusion.* But now you know.* Cool.

2.* No problem.* Glad to help out.* Multi-syllable concepts can be tricky, no question.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 3rd of February 2011 06:27:17 PM

Marin wrote:


2bucks wrote:

1. ....because the wind is, what's the phrase again? Oh yes, it's "Because it's totally unpredictable"

2. And one more thing, thanks for explaining those big words for me.

Click to expand...

1.* Hey, you finally got it!* I'm impressed.* I would have thought that in 32 years of cruising you would have figured out that "5-15"* is an average area prediction and that the winds in a specific location can be well outside that envelope on either side.* But then perhaps you didn't have the benefit of Jeff Renner explaining it to you, so I*can understand your confusion.* But now you know.* Cool.

2.* No problem.* Glad to help out.* Multi-syllable concepts can be tricky, no question.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 3rd of February 2011 06:27:17 PM
Now you need to explain one more thing for me. If the wind is forcast for 5-15 mph, would 20 mph be "well" outside the forcast? I would think that 30 would be, for sure, but only 5 mph, could that be considered "well" outside?



*

guys!

I have noted a change in forecasting styles over the last 35 years. Whereas in those long ago times the weatherguys tried to be accurate, and occasionally they were, nowadays they try to cover their liable a**es. So if ever there is a blow, it will fall within what they have predicted. Marin has noted that it blows a lot harder now than it used to, and just reviewing the old forecasts will bear that out. I haven't noticed any trend in that direction, just in its forecasting.
Occasionally, they stiill get it wrong, but generally, with the current margin for error skewed, a too light forecast is a rare event. Much more frequently, the forecast blow happens only in the open water, and cant be felt in the islands at all, or doesn't happen anywhere you ever hear about.

Keith,
That's very true up here. And there's a really big difference tween the weather (wind) out in the Strait and in the bay. Too big a difference I think. It can be blow'in 50 outside and hardly 20 in the Bay. We have the forecast on the computer that comes from the weather channel and I think it's actually the Ketchikan forecast. (45 mi away) The phone forecast is better. They call it "southern inner channels". And there's two versions. The public forcast and the marine version. And it's amazing how different they are. Like the wind in the winter (and temperature) in Bellingham v/s Everett and Seattle. We have many more micro systems up here. Local differences in geography cause all kinds of amazing little weather zones. We came across Dixon Entrance one day and the weather was "fair" but when we got to Ketchikan it was blow'in 40 or more w at least 3' seas right in the harbor.
It was a bit of a white knuckle experience getting into our assigned slip and Willy is usually not very susceptible to being blown around in harbors. But getting back to forecasts I think forecasters everywhere tend to error toward the bad*** ...no doubt to cover their backsides. If they say it's going to blow and it does fine but if they don't we stone'em.

PS
Bow rollers do exist for Danforth type anchors.

http://www.fisheriessupply.com/productgroupdetail.aspx?cid=100238&keywords=Anchor+roller

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Friday 4th of February 2011 11:10:31 AM

Eric,

Windline in CA has a nice product line of rollers for Danforth/Fortress type anchors as well:

https://windline.com/index.php?act=viewmodels&cat=18

Regards,
Brian

Fortress Marine Anchors

Thank's Brian and I'm glad your'e still around. My new XYZ has'nt come in the mail yet and I should say I prolly should have bought the Fortress but when it comes to anchors I usually don't stay on one track very long. I also think I should give my Manson a bit more slack and put it more to the test. When I think of Fortress I don't think of the Kedge so I'm quite surprised to see Fortress started w the Kedge. There's a fellow up in Maine that makes a beautiful Herreshoff Kedge that has been on at least one of the tests and did'nt do too shabby. It dragged at 300lbs where the top performing anchors dragged at 900-1000lbs. If one was in a position to double their anchor size (or maybe a bit more) one would do very well w that anchor or even one of the cheap fishing Kedge's. With the Kedge one really dosn't need any chain at all so there would be a weight savings of 1 to several hundred pounds so it's not out of the question. But in soft mud you'd prolly need 3 times the size anchor.

2bucks wrote:

Now you need to explain one more thing for me. If the wind is forcast for 5-15 mph, would 20 mph be "well" outside the forcast? I would think that 30 would be, for sure, but only 5 mph, could that be considered "well" outside?




*

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Accroding to Renner, PNW weather books I've read, and personal experience,* the localized geography and other conditions in the*island*can generate winds in excess of 30 mph higher than the overal general forecast, or drop them to near zero.* I would consider those cases to be "well outside" the general area forecast.*

And while I would not consider 5 mph to be "well outside" the general area forecast any boater around here who is at all observant knows that the difference between a 15 knot wind and a 20 knot wind can result in significantly rougher water conditions depending on the directions of the wind and current and the fetch.

Let's stop monkeying around here. Just use this one and you won't be dragging anywhere in a blow (if you can get it to where you want to set it).

David--- I believe you have successfully found the solution to Eric's challenge of wanting to anchor in deep water with an all-nylon rode and a 1:1 scope.

Eric--- Forget your XYZ vs Fortress vs Bruce dilemma. Put one of these on Willy's bow and your anchoring frustrations will be over forever. You might need to install that manual windlass you've been talking about, though, to get it up.

We've got a guy here in Thorne Bay has an 85lb Navy anchor and thinks it's the best.
Even claims to have pulled it w lots of chain up on the deck.
Alright David I'll bite***** ....do the girls go with it? How do you know where you're going w a crew like that! I had a boat full of lookers once in Glacier Bay. Got lost. Those girls kept turning my chart upside-down. The most embarrassing part of that outing is that THEY wer'nt lost.
Marin,*** Manual windlass? Looks like it comes w a small part of the crew necessary.

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Friday 4th of February 2011 05:04:44 PM

nomadwilly wrote:

Manual windlass? Looks like it comes w a small part of the crew necessary.

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Yes, that's a feature.

*

Marin wrote:


2bucks wrote:

Now you need to explain one more thing for me. If the wind is forcast for 5-15 mph, would 20 mph be "well" outside the forcast? I would think that 30 would be, for sure, but only 5 mph, could that be considered "well" outside?

*

Click to expand...

Accroding to Renner, PNW weather books I've read, and personal experience,* the localized geography and other conditions in the*island*can generate winds in excess of 30 mph higher than the overal general forecast, or drop them to near zero.* I would consider those cases to be "well outside" the general area forecast.*

And while I would not consider 5 mph to be "well outside" the general area forecast any boater around here who is at all observant knows that the difference between a 15 knot wind and a 20 knot wind can result in significantly rougher water conditions depending on the directions of the wind and current and the fetch.
Marin wrote: "1.* Hey, you finally got it!* I'm impressed.* I would have thought that in 32 years of cruising you would have figured out that "5-15"* is an average area prediction and that the winds in a specific location can be well outside that envelope on either side.* But then perhaps you didn't have the benefit of Jeff Renner explaining it to you, so I*can understand your confusion.* But now you know.* Cool."

Minus winds? Well outside the envelope on the low side of a 5mph wind. That's an amazing concept.

*

2bucks wrote:
Minus winds? Well outside the envelope on the low side of a 5mph wind. That's an amazing concept.

*

Click to expand...

Conversing with you is like conversing with a two year old.* No ability to grasp concepts any more complex than putting the square peg in the square hole.

If a forecast is 25-35 mph and a local wind is 5 mph, that is "well outside the envelope" on the downside.* Now you're going to come back with a nickel-and-dime statement that we were talking about 5 to 15 so "well outside the envelope" on the downside is a minus wind and there's no such thing.* Well, duhhhh.* That, as Eric says, is fly stuff.

The point is that the wind in the islands can vary widely from the forecast average so you cannot assume that if they say 5-15 or 25-30 or 300-450 that that is what the wind everywhere is going to be, which is counter to your "you can always count on the forecast" implication.* You can get caught out in high winds and rough water even though the overall forecast is much more benign.

That doesn't mean boating in the islands is "dangerous" as you said in an earlier comment, it just means that things won't always be what you might think they will be.* And if you happen to get caught in a situation where a local wind is much stronger than the northern waters forecast implies, you could have a problem.

For a description of what can happen I suggest you go back and read Carey's post describing a specific incident in Fossil Bay a few years ago.* To his experience I can add one of our own, also in Fossil Bay, where the northern waters forecast was quite mild, probably 10-20.* But winds came in that afternoon that were so fierce that they were picking people's dinghies up out of the water and flipping them around on their towlines like kites on a string.* Even dinghies with outboards on them.* We sat on our boat violently pitching up and down on the buoy and watching oars, gas cans, and seat cushions zip by us. A few biminis and* dodgers were shredded.* A pair of rafted sailboats on a buoy were pitching and rocking so violently their masts and spreaders were colliding and considerable damage was done before they got the boats apart.

And nobody, including your precious forecasters, had a clue this was coming.* We turned on the radio to see if the forecast had changed.* It was still calling out the mild wind range it had been calling out earlier.* It blew like this for about three hours as I recall, and then calmed right down again.

I know of a simiilar incident over Labor Day, 2009 in Garrison Bay.* Same deal, local winds way higher than the forecast range.* Boating friends we were going to meet their the next day were already there and they told us that boats started dragging all over the bay when this blew in.* Again, not what the forecast would have led anyone to expect.

So don't give me this crap about how you will always know what's coming if you pay attention to the forecasters.* Lots of times, they have no clue, either.

Maybe down in the south sound where you are this sort of thing doesn't happen.* The geography is different than farther north so maybe there aren't the kinds of influences on local winds there are in the islands.* If so then I can understand why you have this impression that a forecast can always be counted on to give you an accurate picture of the wind conditions throughout an area.



-- Edited by Marin on Friday 4th of February 2011 08:35:07 PM

Marin wrote:


"Conversing with you is like conversing with a two year old."


I hope you never say anything like that to me!
What ever happened to the nice old GB guy?
Always helping people out.
Did 2 Bucks really deserve that?

PS
I decided I should read the ofending words before criticizing your tone. I usually read only what interests me. I did and I found myself laughing at times. Any fool knows geography causes significant variations in wind forcasts in localized places as do other variables and neither of you are fools. I personnaly never cared for Jeff Renner and still miss Ray Ramsey. Remember "the rain train"? Any weather forcast is always a best guess and why people seem to think it should actually be accurate is beyond me. Give the guys a break. Ther're just doing their best to help us out**** ....and they really do. Think of what life would be like totally without them.



-- Edited by nomadwilly on Friday 4th of February 2011 10:12:46 PM

nomadwilly wrote: I personnaly never cared for Jeff Renner and still miss Ray Ramsey. Remember "the rain train"? Any weather forcast is always a best guess and why people seem to think it should actually be accurate is beyond me. Give the guys a break. Ther're just doing their best to help us out**** ....and they really do. Think of what life would be like totally without them.

Click to expand...

I moved to Seattle at the very end of the Ray Ramsey era.* I seem to recall that at the time a young man named Steve Pool filled in for him from time to time.* Steve is now the top TV weather person in Seattle.

Jeff Renner is a true meteorologist, unlike a lot of TV weatherpeople.* I don't know what his on-air personality or delivery is like--- I have never paid much attention to local TV news.* But Renner does know his stuff and his weather class during the USCG Auxiliary boating course my wife and I took was excellent.

And I agree with you that the weather folks today do a very good job.* But forecasting in this area is particularly difficult, partly because the radar coverage does not yet extend very far out to sea and partly because the unique terrain configuration--- the Olympic Mountains and southern Vancouver Island Ranges and their associated rain shadows, the famous convergence zone, and the weather systems that can come the other way, out of the Fraser Valley--- can conspire to make what the weather people think should happen not happen.

I have found in twenty-five-plus years of flying floats in the PNW, BC and SE Alaska and boating this area starting in 1987 with our first boat that the weather forecasters are quite good at forecasting WHAT will happen, but have a very tough time forecasting WHEN it will happen.* Radar has helped a lot but as I said, there is poor radar coverage out into the Pacific.* And out in the islands forecasting the local winds is, in the words of the NOAA forecaster who gave a weather seminar to a bunch of us floatplane pilots awhile back, "a total crap shoot."* Which is why, he said, they only take it as far down as a general area forecast (now called "Northern Waters").

PS--- I've never made any claim to being nice, although you got the GB owner part right.* Like most of us, I suspect, I'm more inclined to be nice to the people I respect than the people I don't.




-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 5th of February 2011 12:27:12 AM