Considering a Krogen to buy

I will likely buy a trawler in the next six months and am considering a Katy Krogen. Partially this is due to the boats features but also due to what I perceive to be a boat that holds its value. The mid eighties boats are priced at above what they sold for new, it seems. Is this perception a reality? Would it be possible to spend $150K on one, maintain and upgrade appropriately, and actually sell it a few years later for $150K?

Katy?

Are you sure it's not a Chinese counterfeit model?

Absolutely. The catch is how much you send in maintenance and upgrades.

Most high quality boats sell today for the same inflated dollars as they sold for when new. That might change a bit now that inflation is so low.


David

To add support to your theory that they will maintain value, I find that the 80s Krogens have dropped in value by almost 40% since the economic decline of 2008. One could believe that they shouldn't drop much further.

Yo may get a Krogen Manatee for 150k, but you will have a lot of money and time to invest for a 42 at that price.

Greetings,
Mr. c. Welcome aboard if I missed you. KK's are fine boats IMO. Regardless of WHAT brand of boat you buy, you may be able to recoup some, but not all, of your investment after a few years BUT a LOT depends on 1) The future market. 2) Whether or not you do all of your own work (yard work is spendy and not getting any cheaper). and 3) How much you're willing to write off (ie: lose) regarding upkeep, maintenance, storage and repairs as well as some other things, and there ARE other things, I can't think of right now.
A boat is definitely NOT an investment $$-wise but it IS an investment enjoyment/adventure/frustration-wise.

meridian said:

Yo may get a Krogen Manatee for 150k, but you will have a lot of money and time to invest for a 42 at that price.

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Can you expand on that? Maybe I haven't had enough coffee this morning to understand properly.

Years ago I created a spreadsheet to find the monthly cash / net cost of major assets I was considering: houses, cabins, boats, cars. You would be surprised at the cost when EVERYTHING is taken into consideration.

I have no idea where Tulda is and whether your state has sales tax, but Washington State does and it's roughly 10%. And most vessels are sold through brokers, so there's another 10% (or you have to learn essentially a new trade to get it sold yourself).

So for "a few years", that's -20% right out of the gate.

Depreciation...we'd all love to have a crystal ball there. Is China going in the toilet? Some models are predicting 0% growth there and lots of pain. And China is Washington State's largest export customer. And lots of the boats talked about on this forum are in Washington State. And is the trawler market growing or shrinking? There was a monster thread on just that topic (no obvious conclusion).

The working on it yourself that RTF mentioned - that's getting harder too. Lots of marinas discourage work that makes noise and dust. But if you're in a major boating area you can probably get that handled at a predictable cost.

KK's are not without issues, a couple of which are coming up on 25 years of age on the type of boat under consideration. Early (many? most? not sure) KK's have end-grain balsa coring in deck and superstructure and water intrusion has lead to issues. More problematic, KK hulls into the mid 80's were fully foam cored (they switched to solid fiberglass below the waterling) and failures there have lead to hull strength problems. And then there are hull blisters.

And fuel tanks. KK epoxy coated their tanks so they have fared a lot better than (for instance) Grand Banks tanks, but...we are really approaching a time when some of these 25 year old boats may face some emerging issues.

There's a rule of thumb (happily debated, of course) that a boat generally requires about 10% of its original purchase price to "keep up" each year. Moorage, insurance, and licenses are included - but fuel, liquor, transient moorage, and restaurant bills are not.

Both the KK42 and the Manatee are Taiwanese Tubs. In fact, the Manatee was made in the same yard as our Fu Hwa. If you want to get an idea of some of the issues the older KK42s can have, read Sea Lifes blog on their two year refit. To get the whole picture, you will need to click on the URLs within this document.

https://caribbeansealife.wordpress.com/about-our-boat/refit/

Bay Pelican said:

To add support to your theory that they will maintain value, I find that the 80s Krogens have dropped in value by almost 40% since the economic decline of 2008. One could believe that they shouldn't drop much further.

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I sure think that Bay Pelican has pointed out something that was born out in our recently completed boat shopping and then buying experience. I was surprised by this. To further illustrate this, we were looking for a configuration and price point combination that put us in the mid 80s pilothouse category. At the current point in time, and I agree this would have been different 5 years ago, the Krogens have retained a significantly lower percentage of their original price than, for example, a Defever in that vintage and configuration. This is a bit of a new phenomenon I think and I have considered two potential theories. One theory is that some of the issues (cores, tanks, etc) of the 30 year old 42s are having this effect on the market value, and the other theory is that I think the mid eighties were the peak in the production run and many of these boats are coming to market based on the demographics of the people who purchased them either the first time or the second time. Even when you have a very good product, when the supply exceeds the demand and the current owners of the supply are pretty ready to move on, there will be an effect on price that may be a bit different than change in the 'value'. To us at least this latter phenomenon appeared to be true. Time will tell on the 'issues'. I had my choice of three mid eighties 42s within 65 miles that were all in decent shape notwithstanding their obvious age and potential 'issues'. Perhaps not crossing ready but certainly cruise ready for what most of us do.

That is a long way of saying that I think these boats are a pretty good value right now and would advise the OP to consider this avenue. I do agree with Bay Pelican that velocity of depreciation may be pretty low for a stretch here.

I can't speak for the 42's, but the Manatee's were around the 90,000 dollar range (depending on options) in '87, the biggest build year of 24 boats. The prices of the best ones sold by Krogen Brokerage before the downturn in 2007 were 175 to 200K. After the downturn, quite a few of the worst conditioned boats came on the market with appropriately depressed prices. At least one restored two-stateroom beauty, owned by Jimmy Krogen, Jr. himself, was let go way under its value. Since then, prices rebounded for better conditioned Manatees, beginning about two years ago with two boats sold by Krogen Brokerage that brought within 5K of their asking price.

Some of these boats are pushing 30 years old and most of them have to be considered for project level work. Pilothouse roofs, windows, deck cores, wet bottoms and drivelines all need to be scrutinized now but are no longer something that automatically disqualifies a boat for purchase. All of those repairs are a matter of past practice, so as long as the survey catches the obvious issues, chances are you'll be able to buy and keep your Manatee or 42' safely on the water, albeit at a price. If you want a Krogen, it's not that much different than making a choice for any other older boat. Being inside one, being aboard one will give you a Krogen experience that has its own individual richness, no more or less different than the individuality of a Grand Banks. Willard or Fu Hwa or anything else. I don't find the repair projects on Krogens any more difficult or costly than any other boat (save for perhaps the parts prices on Volvo engines). A full peel and re-glass bottom job on a Manatee can cost 20-30K. When it's done by a good outfit, it'll be as good as new, but like any boat, you need to know what you're getting into before you pay the price.

If it's a Krogen Manatee or 42', the design is very good and very capable of what it was made for, and its demand by baby-boomers seem to keep the values of the average boats steady and the good ones climbing. The best ones often change ownership outside of the usual market. Good luck finding your boat.

Maybe he meant Tulsa, thats in Oklahoma Just guessin, the D and S are fairly close together.

One of the benefits of Kady Krogen's is the community surrounding the boat. We speak at dozens of venues and there is none like a Krogen rendezvous. Besides the quality of the design, the ability to get help by others with the exact same boat anywhere in the world gives a huge tilt to Krogen in so many situations. What I find unique about the Krogen community is that there are as many women involved as men. So if you're planning to cruise with a wife or significant other, you'll find that she'll like Krogen's more than many other boats. They're designed with safety and comfort and women respond to it.

If you're at all interested in Krogen's, you should definitely go to their rendezvous in Solomons, MD in early October. Or spend some time around C-dock at Sunset Bay Marina in Stuart, FL (now) and walk around asking questions. You'll be swamped with helpful people who will gladly show you everything about their boats.

Here is a newly listed KK 42, asking $170K that already has a bottom peal and an engine overhaul.

1980 Kady Krogen Trawler Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Thanks

I received a lot of good feedback. Thanks to all that sent it my way.
I also updated my profile to fix the typo. I reside in Tulsa, Ok and am about fifteen months from retirement. Am actively looking at trawlers in anticipation.

You are not alone... the dream is out there.

Reference "Taiwan Tubs" and KK's, does that label also include Nordhavn's built in Taiwan ?

HiDHo said:

Reference "Taiwan Tubs" and KK's, does that label also include Nordhavn's built in Taiwan ?

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Somehow I was under the impression Nordhavn's are built in China.

Donsan said:

Somehow I was under the impression Nordhavn's are built in China.

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I believe Nordhavn's are built in China and Taiwan. The China factory starting building some time around 2002-2004. The Ta-Shing yard in Taiwan was started in the mid to late seventies to build the PAE/Mason line of sailboats before switching to power.

Taiwan is in China!

Larry M said:

I believe Nordhavn's are built in China and Taiwan.

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I think from 1999 to 2004 the Nordhavn 40s were built by Pacific Seacraft in California. The first 39 hulls.

menzies said:

Taiwan is in China!

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Taiwan claims they are separate from China.

Re Nordhavns, depending on the model, they are built by one of two yards; South Coast or Ta Shing. Both yards started in Taiwan, but in the early/mid 2000s South Coast moved to Xiamen, China. Ta Shing currently builds the 64/68, 72/76, and the 56 Motor sailor. All other models are built by South Coast.

And yes, the initial N40s were built by Pacific Seacraft, but I don't know how many or for how long.

Taiwan, officially the Republic of China (ROC), is a state in East Asia. Neighbors include the People's Republic of China (PRC, commonly known as "China")....

All fun to pay, think about your rather an investment in your family's well-being was like mourn in advance of things such as the resale ever.

in fact, I at least can not be sure where I live, so I do not want to sit on a bag of money on top of the head and mourn the lost of their own, the way was nice, and it can not but be measured in monetary terms.

Nordic Tug has no stable investment in Europe such as the US, I am still happier than I would have bought something productive investment money (I'm not rich) maby I am wrong, here's one perspective on the topic.

Krogen Wannabe Question

Considering a KK 42 purchase and I apolgize for the uneducated nature of this question but... Is a 42 Krogen, with a draft of 4' 7", able to navigate the ICW and the loop? I realize tides always come into the picture, but is it even a consideration to do the ditch end to end and the loop in a 42?

Thanks for any guidance on this.

There are scores of KK42's that do the entire ICW every season. There is no problem in shore or offshore. It's a wonderful boat for that.

Many KK42's have also done the Great Loop. There would be zero issues. It might need the mast and/or bimini lowered to make certain sections but that would be easy to do too.

If you're concerned about draft, don't be. Our previous boat was a 53' DeFever with 6' draft. We had no problem doing the Great Loop and have done the ICW more than 20 times on her.

My suggestion would be to hold off on doing the Great Loop for a while though. That's not because it would be difficult to do for the boat but rather because I thought it was the most boring thing we've done in 14 years of cruising. There's so many more interesting and fun things to do. Get more experience and then decide if you really want to take the 1-2 years necessary to do the loop.

Thanks Jeff!
The loop is down the road for us, if we even take that fork. Our initial (general) plan is to get acclimated / comfy with whatever boat we finally take the plunge on, by continuing our local cruising during summers here in New Joisey (yes, that is a proper alternate spelling). And then reaching out to the south via ICW & offshore to fla-la-la, followed by Bahamas & Caribbean. It's a dream, but gotta start somewhere.

BTW... Your new digs have some real karisma .

The Great Loop and the Canadian canals can be done in a Krogen 42. Couple of warnings: The western Erie canal is a close fit on the airdraft. Needed to move the dinghy off the center line when we dropped the mast to fit under a couple of the bridges.

Several of the Canadian canals are shallow at the shelf going into a couple of locks. We touched. Usually the lockkeepers from Parks Canada will flood the lock to overflowing to allow a Krogen 42 to lock through. Yes the lockkeepers talk to each other so as we approached each lock they were ready for us. These guys are wonderful by the way.

We were not comfortable with the small ship channel in Georgian Bay, too many turns, rocks and narrow channels for my blood.