Anchor Rode Poll

Marin said:

We know that. The question Eric has raised is where on the rode would the extra weight be the most beneficial.

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Perhaps I wasn't clear. I was addressing your point:

Marin said:

... if one feels more weight is needed at that end of the rode why not simply opt for a heavier anchor in the first place?

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I'm saying it's not clear that having a heavier anchor would actually be better.

Richard

Marin said:

I think the only real way to know is to perform a test with an anchor, a rode, a weight, a boat, some wind and a diver or a camera.

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... or analytical by solving the appropriate differential equation ?
Didn't do that so far but since the ratio of pulling force H and rode weight q plays a role for the simple catenary I would expect that the optimum position of the additional weight W might depend from the ratio of H / W.


best regards / med venlig hilsen
wadden

Britannia said:

I'm saying it's not clear that having a heavier anchor would actually be better.

Richard

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It wouldn't with regards to affecting the angle of the rode meeting the anchor shank. So your original statement is correct I believe.

If one agrees the purpose of anchoring is to keep the anchor firmly stuck in the bottom, while a heavy weight next to the anchor might help to reduce the angle of pull on the anchor and thus help it stay stuck in, having a big-ass heavy anchor might simply prevent it from coming out of the bottom period, regardless of the angle of the rode.

Either way, mission accomplished. only the big-ass heavy anchor might be more convenient to deal with in deployment and retrieve than a smaller anchor plus the weight.

manyboats said:

Wifey B wrote;
"Wifey B: Oh and I did vote. All Chain. I'm in the majority. We win."
What have you won?

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Wifey B: About as much as has been resolved in this discussion/argument. Just like anchors we're all going to keep doing it the same way we have been, convinced we are right.

Your right Wifey,
But I like to kick things around that have possibilities of being a better way of doing things. Picked that up in college instead of good grades. But as you say ... not much has been learned. I fail to consider the huge numbers of people on the forum that never post. But many here will remember the idea and act on it later.

Marin I definitely do think that having an anchor that weighs as much as 95% of your chain and nylon line would hold the boat better. Then you could go back to a Bruce .. can a 300lb Bruce be found?

waddenkruiser,
Think you could come up with the ideal location of weight on a rode mathematically? Without much trouble of course.

Brit,
I think it's clear a heavier anchor all other things being equal is better.

manyboats said:

Brit,
I think it's clear a heavier anchor all other things being equal is better.

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Except for that pesky example of the Fortress........

manyboats said:

Ranger,
Just an extreme example to show rode weight minimizes rode angle at the anchor if the weight is near the anchor. And is next to worthless near the boat.
See the thread "Anchor Rode Weight Bias".

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Yep, understood you meant that as the extreme example (and I posted here before seeing the other thread). Just thought useful to counterbalance that for the record with a "maybe; it depends."

Marin said:

I don't think the extra weight is worthless when near the boat. It still contributes to lowering the angle of pull on the anchor. But I do agree that more weight down near the anchor can be more effective. Which raises the question, rather than wrestle with an additional weight and the hassle of installing and removing it, if one feels more weight is needed at that end of the rode why not simply opt for a heavier anchor in the first place?

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Without Wadden's calculations, I could make a guesstimate that a kellet would be more effective nearer the anchor than nearer the boat. (Given also the "maybe; it depends" influenced by specific anchors, bottoms, etc.) How nearer? Dunno, and I suspect it would vary for the almost infinite numbers of "systems" out there: combination boat, anchor design/weight/etc., rode makeup, scope, wind, current, yaddy yaddy yadda...

I do very much agree, for us, deploying and retrieving a kellet would be a major pain in the backside. Much (MUCH!) easier to increase anchor size/weight. Even if our windlass craps out, retrieving a larger anchor manually would probably be easier than getting a kellet -- assuming useful weight -- back aboard.

Another approach we could maybe use is to insert more chain between our existing spliced-on length and the anchor. That would probably depend if the coupling between existing and new insert could feed through our gypsy. I haven't at all investigated this potential option, so have no clue if there are appropriate shackles for this kind of approach... but in any case, it might make a useful difference to our rode's normal catenary...

-Chris

When a vessel with 30' of chain and the rest three strand comes into a crowded anchorage and sees chain hanging over the bow rollers of the boats next to him/her what factors come into play when positioning his/her vessel for the anchor drop?

Pgitug said:

When a vessel with 30' of chain and the rest three strand comes into a crowded anchorage and sees chain hanging over the bow rollers of the boats next to him/her what factors come into play when positioning his/her vessel for the anchor drop?

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As in all anchoring situations...there is usually several or more factors involved.

Depth of water....forecast weather...is there tidal current....what style boat is the dropper and what style vessels would be nearby...to name a few....

Pgitug said:

When a vessel with 30' of chain and the rest three strand comes into a crowded anchorage and sees chain hanging over the bow rollers of the boats next to him/her what factors come into play when positioning his/her vessel for the anchor drop?

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Been there done that of course. Never used more than 15' of chain. The solution is just to set the anchor hard and deep and pick up rode till your at about 2-1 scope.
Many here are horrified at even the thought of 2-1 but Steve's anchoring vids have dispelled some paranoia regarding that. But if the wind blew up I'd either increase scope or move.
Basically the chain reduces swinging room when there's little or no wind. The line rode boats will blow downwind first I'll grant but the chain boys will be right along too as the wind increases.
But the greenhorn line rode boater will probably anchor at long scope as he's been told that's best ... and swing all over the place. True.

I came into an anchorage in BC called Forward Harbour. In one corner there was a small area of reason of reasonable depth (30-40') and it was filled w boats of all descriptions. Little Bayliners, big converted tugs and big and small fish boats (some rafted) and cruisers and trawlers. No way was I going in there. Went up the Inlet some and anchored in 85' of water.

Ground tackle incompatability in anchorages just has to be dealt with. What would you suggest? A big heavy trawler switch to line rode or a little sailboat switch to several hundred pounds of chain. At least the trawler would be more seaworthy w the all line than the little sailboat w heavy chain. The answer is the best seamanship should prevail.

Eric,

Here is a 27 foot, trailer-able, daggerboard Motor Sailor that I penciled a while back (has not been built).

It features 300 feet of all chain rode. Chain is directed into the mast column and stored low. The chain is an important part of this vessel's ballast.

More than one way to skin a cat.

Steve

Steve,
Brilliant!
I like the concept of making use of weight you feel must be aboard. "Mast Column" ... That's a new one on me. I like the fish form lines and it looks to be very seaworthy. I'm also very intregued by the rudder. Not much vertical space for the engine. Thinking an 18hp horizontal cyl engine?

This should be on interesting boats.

Engine is a Yanmar 3YM30. I know, I know, this is about double the power that is needed. But.......

READ MY LIPS. No twin cylinder diesels in an aluminum boat!

Been there. Done that. And I wont do it again. Waaaay to much vibration.

That particular Yanmar happened to be the shortest marine diesel that I could find.

Steve

Yes a wood boat is best for smoothness and low noise.
This boat looks a lot like one I'm thinking about in the fwd end.

ranger42c said:

If that was based on trying 3-strand... you might find that brait would only take up about the same amount of space as chain (or not much more).

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That's a good plan in theory Chris and indeed I did try it. A friend loaned me some 8mm 12-strand braid saying it was better than chain and more would fit into my locker. Alas that was not true.

Seaweed's anchor locker is RIGHT on her nose, above the water tank. I'm "stuck" with chain -- not that I don't prefer it. I do.

On our 40'er we didn't have much chain but what we had was right heavy. A big Danforth on the bow replaced later by one of the "new" plows (a CQR?) but for Seaweed I need a fast hold to the bottom.

I've spent years (literally!) at anchor and want something I don't have to worry about. For me, that means chain. Still, mine's due for either regalvanizing and/or replacement with a longer bit. 150' will fit so that's what I want. But not this year.

This year is the engine and then start saving for the smallest least expensive autopilot that can steer a compass course for my 7,000 pound boat. When I see $2,000 for such I thing I have to believe there will be someone upgrading that will have the components I need for lots less. At present though I don't know enough to make any decisions. That's my next learning curve to climb.

The longest I've been without touching a dock in Seaweed (not dinghy of course) was 55 weeks. If boats come close and "cut the corner" between me and my anchor I know I'm still going to be secure. All that time at anchor I can say without a doubt that my all chain system works, and works well. Still in deeper anchorages I'll want 150' so I'll have a safety margin.

Because Seaweed is light I make sure I'm anchored out of the way from you big guys. The law of tonnage says I need to have my Seaweed away from the bunch. I don't drift the way you big guys do and turn differently too.

As an example, this was taken during Tropical Storm Beryl on the east coast. Please note the directions of all the boats. All of us had out a single anchor.



#1 is a catamaran facing north
#2 Seaweed facing south
#3 - 40' steel sailboat facing west
#4 - another 40' steel sailboat facing west

As you can see we were all laying in different directions. It was an interesting night. Article about same here: Janice142 article (Tropical Storm) Beryl Lessons

The question on rode bias weight has been solved by member Paul Swanson. See his post on "Anchor Rode Weight Bias" Pg2 post #34.

Yes Janice it's hard to believe.

manyboats said:

Your right Wifey,
But I like to kick things around that have possibilities of being a better way of doing things. Picked that up in college instead of good grades. But as you say ... not much has been learned. I fail to consider the huge numbers of people on the forum that never post. But many here will remember the idea and act on it later.

Marin I definitely do think that having an anchor that weighs as much as 95% of your chain and nylon line would hold the boat better. Then you could go back to a Bruce .. can a 300lb Bruce be found?

waddenkruiser,
Think you could come up with the ideal location of weight on a rode mathematically? Without much trouble of course.

Brit,
I think it's clear a heavier anchor all other things being equal is better.

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Eric, all the research on this has ben done, and largely you are right. That's why the Anchor Buddy instructions advise running the kellet down the rode until it is about a metre above the bottom. Largely guessed, as you cannot see it, but doesn't really matter, as not that critical - just needs to be near the anchor, as you say.

The heavier anchor is better argument has a limitation which you yourself have advised us you suffer from - it's the hernia factor. That is, impractical. And so, (and you're gonna hate me for this), that is why the all chain rode - or a substantial length of chain on a combined rode - is the best compromise, because the weight in the chain, which you by and large never have to lift all at once, but the forces of nature plucking at your boat do, and thus allows for the lighter anchor to still work well.

janice142 said:

This year is the engine and then start saving for the smallest least expensive autopilot that can steer a compass course for my 7,000 pound boat. When I see $2,000 for such I thing I have to believe there will be someone upgrading that will have the components I need for lots less. At present though I don't know enough to make any decisions. That's my next learning curve to climb.

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Janice, did you see this link in that post of FlyWright, Al's..?

Navico Wheel Boat Auto Pilot WP5000 Plus Accessories | eBay

The ad says worldwide shipping offered...so even tho here in Oz..?

janice142 said:

That's a good plan in theory Chris and indeed I did try it. A friend loaned me some 8mm 12-strand braid saying it was better than chain and more would fit into my locker. Alas that was not true.

Seaweed's anchor locker is RIGHT on her nose, above the water tank. I'm "stuck" with chain -- not that I don't prefer it. I do.

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Not to worry, I didn't mean it as a recommendation, just a thought if you hadn't tried it and for some reason wanted to add length to your existing rode.

If the weight rides OK, think I'd prefer all-chain for your kind of purpose, too. Nice that you probably don't have to deal with mud as much down there as we have here.

-Chris

Peter,
Yup .. the hernia factor got me. Actually it was pellet sacks.
The ideal rode as seen through my eyes is 75% line, 25% chain and 3' of cable. But 100% chain is just a waste. It is convenient though and many to most use it for that reason. Or perhaps to be a member of the big boy club.

As to boat type it does vary quite a lot. On a 50 ton + boat chain makes sense. Line may not be practical on larger craft. I wonder how large the combination gypsy gets? That would definitely be a cutoff point for non reel winches. But beyond 25% (approx) chain is just a waste. Al (FlyWright(and others)) has shown us that the splice works well .. at least in SF Bay mud. A long time ago I considered the splice but could'nt buck up and trust it. My intuition told me it would come unraveled but most likely I was wrong. Just didn't look secure to me. But now the door is wide open. But I'd need $1500 (at least) and another equipment install to pull it off. But I probably should'nt be lifting even my little anchors any more. However by last hernia doctor (a pretty lady) said "I send my patients back to hard labor in" and I can't remember how many weeks but it didn't seem like many. But I may have a 5th hernia .. a bit of pain where it shouln't be. No my anchor pulling days are over.

"Yup .. the hernia factor got me. Actually it was pellet sacks.
The ideal rode as seen through my eyes is 75% line, 25% chain and 3' of cable. But 100% chain is just a waste. It is convenient though and many to most use it for that reason. Or perhaps to be a member of the big boy club."

Eric,
I had to laugh at what you wrote above and your comment earlier that people would vote all chain because the majority did. These two statements to me are very juvenile. I think most here are not that affected by pier pressure. I have very specific reasons why all chain is best for where we anchor. I am sure the vast majority of others have their own reasons, and some have shared them.

You say "The ideal rode as seen through my eyes is 75% line, 25% chain and 3' of cable." That may be "ideal" for you and how and where you anchor, but there is no "ideal" rode that suits all boats and all anchorages.

Why does the fact that people use all chain bother you so much? Do you have stock in line companies?

manyboats said:

waddenkruiser,
Think you could come up with the ideal location of weight on a rode mathematically? Without much trouble of course.

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Homework done, please refer to the other anchor thread where Paul had already posted the math-answer ...

Both Primary and secondary anchors have 330 feet of 1/2 inch chain with 150 feet of 3/4 inch Nylon spliced to that. Have never had to have the nylon in the water yet....... Fingers crossed.

Chris D Liberty Australia

READYTOGO,
My being called Juvenile is a new experience for me. I'm trying to express my opinions w/o being combative but it looks like you have a axe to grind. As long as it's fun or informative I'm in. Notice I haven't said using all chain is stupid.
But the weight of the upper half of most all chain rodes on pleasure boats serves no purpose .. it's been shown as a credible fact now. But it's not a very big issue and on most boats if I had all chain I'd probably leave it till it was convenient to change. I know most think I've called them stupid for using all chain ...... NOT SO AT ALL. I'm not looking down my nose at anybody but to have all chain pushed at me like religion promps me to point out that at least for catenary reasons it's not the best route to anchoring performance.
Cheers ...

Funny who perceives who is pushing and who is the first to start slinging labels.

As has been said...BFD, do what you want whatever it is.....all we can do is complain when someone drifts down on us from weak anchoring tackle or technique...till then there are a few truths in anchoring...but that doesn't make them absolutes for enjoyable cruising for everyone.

Remember fellow boaters, this post is just a "Poll". And opinions are worth what you get paid for them.
Get a cool one out of the fridge and start thinking about travels come spring.
See you all on the water.

With such a small load a tiller mounted AP will do just fine , $300-$400or so.

With one that has a remote input (more bucks) you could consider forgoing an built in internal steering setup.

Steering 100% with the AP is no problem , and you would only have to use the tiller when docking.

A hand held "jog switch" that just powers the steering cylinder might allow even docking with out being at the tiller,with just one set of engine controls.

This has been an interesting read this morning.
I am in the process of replacing the Anchor rode on our 40' Mariner Europa.
We currently have 15' chain and 200' nylon that came on the boat when we bought her. So far, in SW Florida, it has been just fine. I actually like being able to secure the rode to my Samson Post without having to rig up a snubber or bridle.
On our previous boat, IP-37, we had 200' of chain that worked very well and we always felt safe and secure.
Now I'm trying to decide which way I want to go...
I notice most of the 'All chain' boaters are on the West coast or Northeast, so I suspect that does play an important part in selection.
We cruise mostly in Florida with a possible trip around the Great Loop.
Decisions, decisions....


Wm Mayberry
OPTIMYSTIQUE
Mariner 40
Marathon, FL

Once you get used to it, a bridle or snubbed only takes seconds to rig.

All 3/8" - G4