I took a beating on a mooring ball

Good job, Tim. As soon as I saw it was trouble at a Mooring, I figured either St. Aug or Fernandina. Good cooperation from the wife.

First let me clarify, Debbie does enjoy the boat, 4-5 days at a time, just not 4-5 months.

Checking forecast winds may not be enough. I, as I'm sure many of you have been at anchor or on a mooring ball with high winds. Last November we were anchored in Broad Ck, VA having arrived there after dealing with 3-5 ft seas in the North River. Forecast was for 2 ft. Broad Ck is surrounded by low grass so this location did not block the wind but it did completely block the waves. A windy but comfortable night.
So in my opinion the sea state is more important than the wind.

I wish the dock master had warned us of the impending conditions. But to be fair we had been on the mooring for 2 previous nights which were comfortable and when I made the reservation I specifically requested the north field because it is much closer to the dinghy dock.

TDunn is exactly right, if I had tied to the mooring with 2 lines as described above I would have had to abandon the lines, it would have been impossible to retrieve them if tied to the pendant. But... I still think tying two lines to the pendant as I described above is the right way. The security of 2 lines can't be overstated and dock lines are cheap.

Going forward I will be more conscientious about checking forecast winds and asking the dockmaster if mooring balls are anticipated. Also just checking the relationship of the mooring field and any open areas where wind and thus waves can build that can affect the field would be well advised.

I will be very interested in finding out what happened that caused the couple on the sailboat to end up on the bridge. Under those wave conditions they were very lucky to come out unharmed.

I have noticed that marine forecast winds are usually higher, and so are wind map sources such as passageweather...etc..if you read between the lines.

Any place winds can be funneled, such as though that stretch of water coming off the ocean and being turned through the bridge area in the face of the fort/city's buildings...especially so.

Even in marsh areas where you may think trees will block the wind, it can turn down that stretch and be funneled to an unexpected velocity. Though usually without major open areas, friction has a pretty major effect as seen by the difference in the city forecast versus the marine forecast for the same areas.

As far as all the safety precautions...completely normal. Being in this situation more than once a decade for the average cruiser would be rare unless for a couple reasons. So even the experience wouldn't have taken them all before or even during the moment.

Comparing offshore safety equipment and procedures on an offshore sailboat to a part time coastal cruiser isn't exactly normal...even professionals write up safety packages that are divided into classes of use.

Sure some good tips...but Monday morning stuff...think about it and add to your arsenal as you think through what went well and what didn't.

Wind direction and fetch are the factors that matter when you are moored or on the hook. Our harbor is open to the east, so easterlys always mean rough weather. We are protected from all other directions. A couple of years ago we were on the fringes of a hurricane that passed west of us so the winds were from the south. Despite the winds being in the 60 knot range my boat was riding easy because of the limited fetch to the south.

Open areas can have high wind but be limited in the ability to produce wave action due to depth of water... then I have seen marshes turn into a frenzy when the N'oreasterly winds drive unusually high tides over them.

Other much smaller areas can produce pretty good sized waves due to wind and opposing current speed.

Unfortunately nothing is simple and thus even the most experienced can get caught off guard.

My rule of thumb because my boat is my home and all my possessions of significance....forecast marine winds above 20 knots have me seeking a sheltered marina or a deep, blind end, secluded anchorage with plenty of solid protection around. I have a low risk threshold in this case.

Not always easy...but I have in mind plenty of places that I see and keep in the back of my mind.

timjet said:

How many wife's would spend that much time on a boat?

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In a heartbeat!

Very excellent review of all points. And I agree with Tdunn. Your inflatable PFD would have done just fine.

To give y'all an idea of where Tim's perspective comes from...

As airline pilots, when we screw up or simply face a situation that could have had consequences, we fill out an ASAP(Aviation Safety Action Program) report. It is basically a report of what happened...how it happened...why it happened...and how would you prevent it from happening in the future. It gives the company and FAA a database to predict trends(it also uses other programs to complete the safety infrastructure). It does relieve/protect us from punitive action in most scenarios.

That is why you see his thoughts and decisions so well thought out. This ain't his first rodeo!!!

It is also one of the reasons I enjoy boating so much. It does allow for the things I learn at the airline level to trickle down into my boating experiences. IOW, I love the challenge of operating a large piece of equipment in a competent and professional manner.

Thanks for sharing your story and I'm sure as you know in forums there will be criticism, but not meant in a hurtful way. Few things from my 30+ years on the water:
1)Conditions are bad, don't leave, no matter how good you think you are or how strong the boat is.
2) if you think life jacket, then just put it on (regular one, not inflatable).
Safe travels!

For those suggesting non-inflatable life jackets....

Which type?

Hurried actions in a life jacket with as much flotation as an inflatable is a joke.

Work vests were created for that situation and their life saving capability is near the bottom.

Inflatables were designed for the better of both worlds..work and flotation....

In my wildest dreams I would never use a regular jacket over an inflatable except when abandoning ship....even then it might depend.

Tim, when we bought our boat my wife, like Debbie, didn't want to have any helm time. I had argued that if something should happen to me I would have to rely on her to get the boat back to a dock. She wasn't having it.


One day when we were cruising and both of us up on the fly bridge, I turned to her and said "I need to go below for a minute" and indicated she needed to take over the helm. She didn't want to until I told her to just keep it in the middle of the river and watch the plotter screen.


I went below, got a bottle of water, sat around for a few minutes then went back up. She wasn't really enjoying the driving but I sat down next to her and just let her keep at it.


She asked me what I went below for and I told her I had to hit the head. Since that initial time she's become more accustomed to it and twice has backed it into the slip (with me standing right next to her).


She still never asks to take the helm but will if I ask her to. And yes, she could get it to a dock if necessary, knows hot to call the USCG on VHF16, knows where to look for the lat/long numbers, etc.

FlyWright said:

Seems like you thought it through and communicated your plan well with Debbie. Clear and effective real time communication is always challenging under conditions like those. Sounds to me like you did well.

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Yeah, BUT I'd teach her to be more comfortable with running the boat. No telling when you may become incapacitated enough (like a health issue) to not be able to do it yourself.....Then you're truly in a jam that you might not be able to respond as well too if at all...

From your quote earlier:
"It's not going to happen. She doesn't want to and no matter of negotiation is going to change that."

That's just foolish and dangerous. Maybe you two shouldn't be boating together..

(or maybe she has a large life insurance policy on you???)

This is a great thread, mainly because Timjet himself is reviewing his own actions and thinking of what he did well and what he could have done better. Frankly, I think he's being much too hard on himself. Was he perfect? No. But he handled it well and will do better next time and to me that's the key, that we're always learning. No circumstance precisely duplicates a previous one either, we just build out own little internal database and proceed from there. I applaud the way he's reexamining. We should always do that. But I also like that he's considering comments but then sorting through on his own.

I think you took reasonable steps. You evaluated where you were versus getting elsewhere and thought you'd be better moving. Whether you were or not can be argued, but you didn't do it without a good bit of thought and the boat against the bridge might well indicate that moving was a good idea.

Whether you should have known more from the location and the weather, you probably should have. But then how many others were there and didn't anticipate or have the information. Again, next time you will. You'll be more knowledgeable of thinking of exposure of mooring fields and more on top of the latest conditions. However, if you boat enough, you'll find yourself in a mooring field or anchorage again caught by a surprisingly bad turn of conditions. That's why this is so great, that you're thinking of next time and many of us are.

As to Heron telling you what you should do with your wife and all of that, I thought and so did my wife, who loves boating, that he was a bit offbase. You and your wife worked well as a team and you will continue to do so with her having limitations in what she will do. You'll consider those when deciding to go out or not. Everyone isn't going to feel the same about boating. I love that my wife loves it as much as I do and that she's got the same license I have, but neither of us is going to impose that on other wives or husbands. I'm sure most of your cruising is in situations that you'd be comfortable single handing and you're probably doing with 1 1/2 hands. With situations like the one you just encountered, she picks up a little more knowledge each time. You learn more than you realize often times through exposure.

I just applaud your entire posts on this topic, Timjet. I think we all continue to learn and if any of us go through something like this or other boating experiences and don't learn anything, then there's just something wrong and that kind of stubbornness will hurt us one day.

BandB said:

As to Heron telling you what you should do with your wife and all of that, I thought and so did my wife, who loves boating, that he was a bit offbase.

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You really think so?....Wow...I assumed you were an experienced, responsible boating couple. You may take your shared knowledge and skills for granted. many cannot

His life could depend on her knowing how to run the boat. Maybe that's not important to either of them or you. Sorry, but It is to me. None of us here are getting any younger.

Btw, I'm not "telling" Timjet anything. Just suggesting it MAY be important. If it's not, that's fine....Carry on (with your fingers crossed) and hope nothing bad ever happens again. Being in denial does not insulate you from potential disaster.

If I had a heart attack or stoke I'd like to know my wife could get the boat back to the dock, any dock. I haven't seen many medivac choppers capable of water landings...

Lets hope none of us are ever in this position. This is more than a story about bouncing around on a mooring ball..

High winds and waves can happen anywhere. Look at what happen to me a few weeks ago......

Heron said:

You really think so?....Wow...I assumed you were an experienced, responsible boating couple. You may take your shared knowledge and skills for granted. many cannot

If I had a heart attack or stoke I'd like to know my wife could get the boat back to the dock, any dock. ..

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We are an experienced, responsible boating couple, but we recognize some couples aren't in our position. We really can't judge as we don't know their capabilities or where and how they boat.

People fly small planes regularly without co-pilots. Now, that scares me and not something I would do.

As to the heart attack or stroke, if you're 20 miles offshore in a Trawler type boat, no one is going to get you to shore fast enough. We carry very complete medical kits and we're trained in the use of them plus we subscribe to a service to patch us to a medical response service and we're still under no illusion that means we can always save each other. But, you bring up strokes and heart attacks so do you carry a defibrulator and know how to use it? What about wraps and medications?

The point is that we're all prepared for different levels of problems and different kinds of boating. I do believe his wife having at least a minimal amount of very basic knowledge even if she never intends to use it would be beneficial. However, I'm not about to jump into his marriage and how he and his wife have agreed to do this. I'm sure my wife and I do a lot of things that many here would disapprove of but work just fine for us. Undue pressure could make her back away from boating with him altogether.

I know you're approaching it as a boating issue and we're approaching it as a marriage issue. I'll leave it to Timjet to deal with. He knows it would be preferable for her to learn more.

BandB said:

The point is that we're all prepared for different levels of problems and different kinds of boating. I do believe his wife having at least a minimal amount of very basic knowledge even if she never intends to use it would be beneficial. .

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On that we agree...

Man this is some drama........

My $0.03

I've been solo for the last 5000 miles. (Whether wifey and the kids were on board or not matters nil. She looked after the kids, I got the boat.)

Doesn't matter, plan accordingly. There's nothing inherently unsafe about that.

If you're tied up to a mooring and it's all holding....... ride it out. Some cards, vodka and a cigar. If it starts dragging, act accordingly (drop the bridle it's only money). If you HAVE to get away, there's a few ways to skin that cat. In this case I would have considered getting the boat upwind of the mooring and setting the anchor..... remove the bridle and drive over the anchor whilst retrieving form the helm. (Assuming a remote windlass) Again, lots of ways to do it.

An inflatable is fine. They work, ask me how I know. Falling overboard in 5-7? Try 15-20 (foot, not knots) in the stream. I didn't, but I got close. Yes, hanking on to a jack line is a good idea. I've had one on my last three boats. Now think about hanging from your tether slapping against the side of the boat..... now what?

Not trying to sound tough, but we all have our own tolerances and experience levels. This guy pulled it out of his ass and got a nice learning experience from it. If you think he should have staid home, maybe you should too.

Rant over.

Just a few thought come to mind to toss in here, as we have been caught out in the odd 'blow'.

Yes, the inflatable PFD would have been sufficient - never wear one under a standard jacket - it's one or the other, but as PSNeeld said, movement much less restricted in the inflatable.

I would think if there is a real possibility of going overboard to also have a line attached at least the length of the boat, and preferably very securely attached at the stern and near the boarding ladder, and no point doing this really unless you organise things so the boarding ladder is accessible with the dink in place in my view, even if it means mounting the dink a bit off centre, like in the pic. The idea is function, not looks. This is totally relevant to any man overboard scenario. Almost impossible to get someone back on board, or for you to climb back on board, if you can't self deploy and access the ladder. Means we can swim also without launching the dink as well.

Having seen a yacht in company with us in a blow get their anchor strop/hook jammed in the bow roller in a panic up-anchor scenario and nearly lose their boat as a consequence, (pulled off by Marine Rescue when keel was thumping bottom), I have a secondary roller mounted next to the main anchor roller, and always use that for the strop or a mooring ball line, so the anchor stays where it needs to be, secure, and ready to deploy instantly if needed. I use a single strop with a section covered by conduit where it crosses the roller to prevent chafe.

Definitely a good idea to regularly check a proper marine forecast, and try to move in anticipation, rather than in response to, worsening conditions, and read the weather charts yourself, so you can work out trends. Get a book on weather map interpretation if necessary, or it's probably on the net. It's fun to know how to work out wind strengths, probable direction changes, etc.

Finally, if caught out, and things not too terrible, maybe better to just stay put, especially if on a mooring - they are usually more secure than an anchor. Just saying'

I boat in the SF Bay and CA Delta. We rarely see 100+ ft water and it's almost all forgiving and good holding mud. My wife can't drive the boat and will never learn how to drive the boat. But she knows how to stop the engines and deploy the anchor while calling for help, DSC and CH 16 manually. I have great faith in my anchor in keeping us safe in most conditions. Besides, I have a whole lot more faith in the speed of the USCG and other boaters when critical moments count than relying on my boat's 8 kts.

She didn't know how to fly when I used to fly us around, but we survived that, too. At least today we have a Plan B.

Baker said:

I love the challenge of operating a large piece of equipment in a competent and professional manner.

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Oh so true. My Airbus A-330 and now my little Carver 35 ACMY. Next, the biggest RV I can find towing a dually.

I didn't start this thread to discuss the relative merits of our wives boating capabilities but rather to get opinions on how I handled this situation and most importantly how to avoid a similar situation again. I've been around boats my whole life and I bet everyone that's contributed to this thread has also been around boats a long time. It's absurd and disrespectful to suggest that I need to fix my wife. Oh gee I hadn't thought of the importance of teaching my wife how to operate the boat. Please.

We're currently anchored up the Banana River just north of Dragon's Point. Pleasant little anchorage, not a ripple last night. I grilled chicken breasts and my wife made a salad. We ate by candle light on the sundeck, bottle of wine on the table between us. Cat curled up on top of the cooler. Nope not gonna trade her in for some muscle bound wench with a 6 pak license.

psneeld said:

My rule of thumb because my boat is my home and all my possessions of significance....forecast marine winds above 20 knots have me seeking a sheltered marina or a deep, blind end, secluded anchorage with plenty of solid protection around. I have a low risk threshold in this case.

Not always easy...but I have in mind plenty of places that I see and keep in the back of my mind.

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I bought my dinghy from an experience boater and he invited me in to see his boat. Sadly his wife was dying of cancer and he was shedding everything related to boating. He offered to sell me his guide books mostly his Skipper Bob anchoring guide and Marina guide to the ICW. So we talked a little about anchoring.

His rule of thumb was the same, winds over 20 kts and he was seeking a marina.

Psneeld's comment reminded me of that conversation. Good advice and perhaps the best of all.

Thanks Tim. Enjoy that spot...had the best dolphin show ever there with them chasing food into the shallows.

Not sure I am fond of the idea of training a line in a confined areas, an anchorage and a situation requiring quick close quarters maneuvering to get underway.

The water temp was high enough and shorelines close enough and small vessels close enough that going overboard and getting tight back on want nearly the issue of remote or open water and a line in the water in those circumstances is a danger in itself.

For the last 13 years towing, I only ran over my towline a couple times. Usually in situation just like this. High stress and the need to concentrate on one issue at a time just to keep going where you wanted to get.

In this situation...no...I would not recommend trailing a line in the water...too big of a risk for only a "possible" gain.

timjet said:

Oh so true. My Airbus A-330 and now my little Carver 35 ACMY. Next, the biggest RV I can find towing a dually.

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You got me beat with the boat, don't have one yet but working on it. Occasional 764, usually a 752. As far as the biggest thing you can pull with a (Dmax) dually.... here you go. Although I must confess I am spending a lot of time on a forum where people pull their fivers with a singled HDT...... Something about a 10 speed that's just too cool......

psneeld said:

Not sure I am fond of the idea of training a line in a confined areas, an anchorage and a situation requiring quick close quarters maneuvering to get underway.

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Good point. We would have had to retrieve that line and there may not have been enough time with the other boats so close.

I have a tale of a trailing line. 2 years ago we were leaving our permanent slip for a new one several miles away with the plan on spending the night at our favorite anchorage before arriving at the new slip.
We of course were taking all our dock lines with us but I didn’t notice the port bow line had fallen in the water still attached to the cleat. It’s difficult to see a rope in the water attached to the cleat from the helm unless you are looking directly at the cleat.

30 minutes later we power up to 2300 rpm for a fast run across Tampa Bay when suddenly I hear a loud POP with the port engine falling to 1600 rpm and tons of black smoke pouring out the port exhaust. I immediately come to idle and investigate but could not find anything wrong. Power up again but the port engine would only achieve 1600 rpm with the black smoke returning. Interestingly no smoke below 1600 rpm. We continued on one engine to the anchorage and the next morning I was walking the deck and saw the rope connected to the cleat. Now knowing what probably happened I dove the boat to confirm and removed most of the remaining rope from the prop. Powered up again but all was the same.

2 weeks later with the engine head removed it was confirmed that the #3 piston had blown. A sudden decrease in rpm from 2300 to 1600 and years of over propping by the PO had done it.



Now every time we leave a marina Debbie counts the dock lines before she clears me to put the engines in gear. Such a sweetheart.

Certainly a trailing line has its place...my risk management assessment in this case points to a higher threat than help.

I am nervous using forward dock lines that can reach the prop for your very reason.

To go back to your mooring bridle situation for a moment: Yes, having a line going from one bow cleat, through the pennant eye and back to the other bow cleat is a sure recipe for doing chafing damage to both the mooring pennant and your bridle line - and for the possibility of having one of them part in the middle of a stormy night. Not good.

Equally bad - or maybe worse - is actually TYING your bridle to the mooring pennant. As you mentioned, this makes it difficult, if not impossible to release the mooring in a stormy situation.

I always taught my charter guests to BUILD a bridle. First, secure the loop end of the first bridle line to a bow cleat. I usually start with the starboard side bow cleat to make picking up the mooring easier (helm on starboard). Pick up the mooring pennant loop (I recommend picking it up alongside when conditions permit.) Pull the bitter end of the bridle line through the pennant loop and walk the bridle end up to the same bow cleat. Quickly tie it to the cleat and you are at least secure. Now you can relax for a second and begin to "build" your bridle.

Untie the bitter end of the bridle line and pull out slack until the pennant loop is almost to your starboard bow cleat. Re-secure the bridle line to its cleat. Now, take your second bridle line and secure the loop end to your portside bow cleat. Outside of your bow rails, maneuver the line around your bow pulpit and anchors, and then put it through the mooring pennant loop eye that you have pulled up almost tight to the starboard cleat. Now maneuver the line BACK around the pulpit and anchors to secure it again to your portside bow cleat. You can then untie the starboard bridle line and let line out until both bridle lines are the same length and the pennant loop is centered on the bow. Finally, adjust both bridle lengths to be as long as conditions and mooring field spacing allows.

This type of bridle will not saw away at the pennant and should keep the whole assembly away from your bow pulpit and anchors. When you are ready to go, engines running, someone at the helm, etc., simply release one bridle line and pull it all the way free of the pennant loop. Then, untie the second bridle line and pull IT free of the pennant loop. Be sure to control the line as it goes out so that it doesn't flip around the mooring loop and become fouled.

If you practice this technique, you can feel safe and easily release a mooring under almost all conditions.

kraftee said:

This type of bridle will not saw away at the pennant and should keep the whole assembly away from your bow pulpit and anchors. When you are ready to go, engines running, someone at the helm, etc., simply release one bridle line and pull it all the way free of the pennant loop. Then, untie the second bridle line and pull IT free of the pennant loop. Be sure to control the line as it goes out so that it doesn't flip around the mooring loop and become fouled.

If you practice this technique, you can feel safe and easily release a mooring under almost all conditions.

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I think that's what I do. Two lines, one to each side. I use two because....
I came loose one windy night at Block Island when a single line chafed thru and I woke up to the sound of the pennant clanging on the bow rail as it got pulled off the boat. I got up and was drifting thru the town mooring field. LuckilyI didn't hit anything and was able to get back to the private mooring I was on. But I learned an important lesson.

I have frequently put the mooring pennants on the cleats directly. That said, it was on a sail boat with cleats quite forward and about 5 feet above the water. A taller bow and cleats set further back on a MY this probably won't work.

Putting the pennant loops directly onto the cleats works great IF: 1) the mooring ball actually has TWO pennants. 2) the pennants are long enough to reach to your bow cleats. 3) It is dead calm when you pick them up so that you can actually maneuver them onto the cleats. 4) The forecast is for calm winds when you plan to leave (kind of hard to pry them up off the cleats in a big blow.) And, 5) you have picked up that rarest of animals - a mooring pennant that is not covered in gook and sea life!

oscar said:

I have frequently put the mooring pennants on the cleats directly. That said, it was on a sail boat with cleats quite forward and about 5 feet above the water. A taller bow and cleats set further back on a MY this probably won't work.

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What boat that has cleats set back and not on centerline that doesn't have chocks? Not many I have towed.

Granted there are some cheezy chock setups and a few that has a bow pulpit set up funny...but they are easily corrected.

Really doesn't matter though, the concept of using two loops as opposed to one, independently secured is the way to go.