Listing price increase?

I was considering a boat I had found (1993 Camano, Hull #28) and dug around on the internet to see what I could find about that model and year of boat. What I found has me a bit puzzled. It had been for sale by another location of the same brokerage in mid-2014 for $6K less than the current listed price. Nothing in the current listing indicated any substantial upgrades or improvements to justify the price increase. The sales guy I spoke to indicated the price was fairly firm.

I would have expected the initial listing price to be near what a survey at that time would indicate. There has been the extra time and wear of the intervening year and a half. I would expect the survey value to go down along with the listed price, but the listed price went up.

My question to the group is: What reasons might there be for a substantial price increase a year and a half after not having sold and without documented upgrades or modifications?

It has me puzzled. What do you think of this?

Thanks.

Tim

Offer what you think it's worth. Price is just "asking."

The only thing you can draw with any certainty from an advertisement is that the boat is probably for sale.

Going by the 'firm' mentioned by the sales guy, if true, I'm not interested in making the multi-hour drive to look at it. If that was just sales speak and not really true and the prior listed price is closer to an acceptable reality to all parties including the surveyor, then I would be interested. Without some receipts on upgrades, I certainly would not offer more than the original ask and would probably offer less. But, I have not yet heard back on this. Other than upgrades, might there be some reason to offer more than the original ask, something that would justify the increase in asking price? I can think of several disparaging reasons, but would rather find some non-disparaging ones.

Oh, 6k less? Probably just a rounding error.

Its a boat, and 6 boat bucks is not a lot in the overall scheme of things if toy need to repair, replace or upgrade a few items.

How much is 6k in percentage terms of the asking price? I suspect that they seller has a figure in mind, net of sales commission that he wont go under. The 6k higher ask is very likely the dealer just giving himself some wiggle room so a haggler thinks he managed to screw him down.

Could be something as simple as demand has increased raising the market value. Boat values have been depressed since 2008. There are also those brokers or sellers who feel there will be someone who comes along willing to pay more than it's worth. Go look at the boat and if you like it, make an offer. If they accept it, it was probably too high. The 3 boats I've purchased used, averaged about 25% off the listing price. It's a game. If you don't want to play it, pay the listing price.

Ted

Marketing. Raise the price and people sniffing around get aggravated. But even being aggravated, they certainly are interested. Looks like the strategy worked on the OP!!

They could double the asking price and it would have zero effect on what a good buyer would offer. Offer what the boat is worth to you, nothing more.

A few hour drive to go look is cheap.

How does it compare pricewise to other Camanos, similar age and equipped, on the market? I owned a 2002 model from 2004-2008 they are fine boats.

TimButterfield said:

Other than upgrades, might there be some reason to offer more than the original ask, something that would justify the increase in asking price? I can think of several disparaging reasons, but would rather find some non-disparaging ones.

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Some desirable boats slot into the right market and do appreciate. I bought a Bristol 35.5 for $65k and sold it 4 years later for $85k. Admittedly, I did some improvements, but it was a desirable boat in a market that was showing a greater demand for that particular model which had long since ceased production..A nice percentage of the appreciation was due to that...

I suspect a simple explanation, his wife said "sell the boat!" and he doesn't want to.

The 6K increase was not insignificant. The price was increased from 89K to 95K. My interest was not caused by noticing the difference. But, my noticing the difference was caused by my initial interest. After first becoming (somewhat casually) interested, I did research on the boat and a Google search revealed the expired listings from mid-2014. My interest then increased along with my puzzlement.

I was thinking on this further last night. Exchange rate changes may have had something to do with it. This is a Canadian boat. Back in mid-2014, there was about a 1.03:1 exchange rate. Now, it is closer to 1.38:1. The USD buys more CDN boat now, which moved it towards my realm of possibility.

Could moving the boat from Nanaimo to Vancouver account for the increase in ask? Would survey valuation match that move in market or is that considered roughly the same market? Would the CDN survey valuation change with the CDN:USD exchange rate?

I obviously do not want to pay more than the boat is worth. Part of my worry is the survey valuation may not have increased along with the move of the boat. If it did not, the bank would want me to make up the difference. I'm not sure I'm willing to. Before I invest in a survey, it would also be helpful to know how a US bank would respond to CDN survey valuations given that is not where the boat would reside. How might that be affected by the exchange rate? It's value in the US market is likely higher. This boat is the Camano Troll. A two year newer Camano Gnome (without flybridge) is at West Yachts in Anacortes for $89K USD. After the exchange rate conversion, this boat at 95K CDN is closer to 68K USD. Adding to that difference, I think I read somewhere the flybridge was a 16K difference when purchased.

I would like to make sure that if I do pay for a survey, the bank will like the valuation. I would prefer no surprises. Could a CDN surveyor evaluate a boat for the US destination market instead of the CDN origination? Or, could a surveyor from Bellingham cross the border to evaluate it for the US market?

This will be my first cruising boat purchase; prior boats had been smaller fishing boats. I'm trying to figure how in advance how this process is supposed to work in an attempt to avoid surprises I might not be able to or want to afford. Any assistance to improving my understanding would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Tim

Greetings,
Mr. TB. A survey done by the current owner for insurance purposes may not realistically reflect the boats "value". I've had surveyors ask what I want the boat to be "worth", within reason, for insurance purposes. As has been mentioned, any boat is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. As to the currency exchange, it should be a direct conversion and selling location has a lot to do with what the vessel will ultimately fetch.

Tim, you said it was for sale at a different location. Maybe they moved the boat to a location where they think it will sell for a higher price and or quicker. Maybe previously the owner was in a tight spot and wanted to sell it fast but it didn't and now he has more time to wait for the right buyer. Regardless of the reasons if the boat is priced fairly now it is worth a look. As far as the broker's comments I would take that with a grain of salt.

I'm shopping for a bargain basement sailboat lately just for weekend fun. We don't much care where we keep it, either coast, so my shopping area is unusually wide. Old boats, 1970's, for $10k or less. Even at that Dollar Store level I'm amazed at the price variations on the same model, same year, roughly the same condition (for whatever the sales listings are worth). It's just reinforcing to me that boat pricing is generally nonsense. Million dollar asking prices on a boat that should go to a landfill, and then almost give-away prices on the same good looking boat model elsewhere. It's chaos. Huge variations all driven by individual circumstances, there's no logic to it.

RT Firefly said:

I've had surveyors ask what I want the boat to be "worth", within reason, for insurance purposes. As has been mentioned, any boat is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. As to the currency exchange, it should be a direct conversion and selling location has a lot to do with what the vessel will ultimately fetch.

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I noticed the same thing with this 71 Ta Chiao Pilot House. I looked at it when it was for sale by owner a 49,000 and past on it. Guy had it on the market for over a year then he go's with a broker, now its on yacht would for 59,950. That's brokers for you

I'd ask the broker why the price went up. Can't hurt to let him know you are aware of the earlier listing.

The move from Nanaimo to Vancouver would be to expose the boat to a larger market AND make it easier for you US folks to access. Nanaimo would have likely cost someone like you an extra day and at least a couple hundred more bucks.

The price change reflects the exchange rate change.

Nervous?
Planning to do more BC shopping?
Get yourself a good buyer's broker in Bellingham and all your bank, survey, transfer and tax questions can be addressed.

So this price is in CDN$? The market price close to the border is largely based on US$. It wouldn't surprise me to see CDN$ prices firm up as the exchange rate changes, as it has over the last 18 months. We are not in isolated markets and it's relatively easy to bring boats across the border.

Boats on YachtWorld listed in a different currency than the US dollar will have automatic price changes with currency conversion.
On a regular basis I have buyers make a written offer for a boat without seeing the boat. The offer will be subject to "PERSONAL INSPECTION" plus survey, sea trial, financing etc. If it is subject to financing, if your lender does not agree with the value the deal is off. You can pay a surveyor to do a quick walk through before you pay for a full survey and ask him for an OPINION of value.
Survey value is based on the boat location, boats in Greece now are cheap, Great Lakes boats are more than Florida. It is extremely rare that a lender would not agree with the surveyor, almost un-heard of actually.

Ok, I think you just might be really mixing up the numbers here.
If this is the boat you are talking about it is $68,000 to you, not $95 or $89. Also a $6k Canadian jump is really only about $4k (6%) to you.

1993 Camano Troll Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

On the surface, this thing looks like a pretty good deal and I shouldn't even be encouraging you guys.

Russ Borman said:

I noticed the same thing with this 71 Ta Chiao Pilot House. I looked at it when it was for sale by owner a 49,000 and past on it. Guy had it on the market for over a year then he go's with a broker, now its on yacht would for 59,950. That's brokers for you

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I''m guessing He'll still take $49 (net) or less. Just wanted to price it to get his broker fees back. Not uncommon.

yachtbrokerguy said:

...Great Lakes boats are more than Florida...

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That's not a recent or new market trend though, pretty much always been that way, hasn't it? Freshwater/saltwater, FL is the biggest (therefore most competitive) boat market in the country...

Hawgwash said:

Ok, I think you just might be really mixing up the numbers here.
If this is the boat you are talking about it is $68,000 to you, not $95 or $89. Also a $6k Canadian jump is really only about $4k (6%) to you.

1993 Camano Troll Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

On the surface, this thing looks like a pretty good deal and I shouldn't even be encouraging you guys.

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Yeah...from the listing:

Current Price:
Can$ 95,000 (US$ 68,144)

This does look like a good deal..
The OP is overthinking this IMO..

Heron said:

Yeah...from the listing:

Current Price:
Can$ 95,000 (US$ 68,144)

This does look like a good deal..
The OP is overthinking this IMO..

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Ditto that and thanks to this thread many more sets of eyes are aware of that too....

CPseudonym said:

Ditto that and thanks to this thread many more sets of eyes are aware of that too....

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Yeah, better snatch 'em all up now before Trump builds The Wall between us.

Hawgwash said:

Yeah, better snatch 'em all up now before Trump builds The Wall between us.

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No no, it's just a south wall -- everybody likes the Canucks. Well, you know, when (US) Americans travel to dangerous areas we lie and say we're Canadians, sew maple leaves to our backpacks and just add "eh?" to the end of our sentences. Nobody doesn't like Canadians, eh.

I tried to post this earlier, but had to wait for some account restrictions to be removed.

Thanks for the info guys. It's helpful.

Hawgwash,
That is the boat. The prior listing is here. Photo 8 of 8 identified the phone number for the Nanaimo location of the same brokerage company. Other prior listings I found were were slightly different, such as having an 89.5K asking and not including that photo.

One boat I am comparing this one with for value guestimation purposes is this 1995 Camano Gnome in Anacortes. This boat is two years newer, but does not have the flybridge. The hours on the Gnome are just a bit less, 1930 vs 2006 Without the flybridge, I would expect the Gnome to have a lower valuation than a Troll even though it is a bit newer. If the asks are near value and exchange rate is reflected in that value, that would mean the Troll has a value $20+K less than the Gnome. If accurate, that would seem to indicate some serious problem with the Troll that may not be obvious from an initial inspection.

Written later...

It turns out there were a few additions to justify at least some increase other than just supply vs demand. There is new windless, canvas, etc. (Edit: comparing with prior listing pictures, that may not all be new.)

It might be a really good boat for someone. That still could be me. In the mean time, I have no objection to someone else using this thread to investigate this boat. It might save me from myself. While I would like the boat, my primary goal with this thread is to gain some more education I can apply to any boat.

Something else to keep in mind is potential financing issues in the US. Some of the US lenders I have spoken with will not do a first loan on a Canadian boat. In order to finance through them, you first need to complete the entire purchase of the boat in Canada and the registration in the US. After having paid for the entirety of that yourself, you can then re-finance with the lender to recover some of that equity. I am not sure yet if some US lenders will do a first loan on a Canadian boat. I'm still investigating that.

So, this is still a possible for me, though maybe no longer a probable. More education is always welcome. I prefer soft knocks to hard knocks.

TimButterfield said:

If the asks are near value and exchange rate is reflected in that value, that would mean the Troll has a value $20+K less than the Gnome. If accurate, that would seem to indicate some serious problem with the Troll that may not be obvious from an initial inspection.

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Not necessarily. In some instances the Canadian Market has not caught up to the US yet and it may well be a great deal.

In the mean time, I have no objection to someone else using this thread to investigate this boat. It might save me from myself.

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I'm going to be in the area end of next week and could possibly have a quick look. Always like looking anyway. I'm not going to BS anyone though and I might get the cold shoulder if they haven't heard from you.

Something else to keep in mind is potential financing issues in the US.

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This is why you might want to think about a Bellingham broker to assist you. The good BC and WA brokers are working together frequently, especially right now and there are a lot of boats that don't even reach the open market. Even if you are only lukewarm now, establishing a relationship could help later. The Bellingham guys are about an hour away from this boat and travel across the fence all the time. They also might have funding sources and other pothole fillers you can't get in Texas. Some bankers know squat about the boat game.

Hawgwash,
I really appreciate the offer though I'm not sure it is necessary. If I cannot find an acceptable source of financing, being a really good deal wouldn't help me. Finding this one was a bit unexpected, not to mention a bit premature. It may be possible, but with some sacrifices. Delaying somewhat would let me firm up my financial situation more before going after the next one.

As for the Bellingham brokers, how would I find the good ones? Do you have recommendations? I should update my profile. I'm full time in Anacortes now.

Thanks.

Tim