Watermakers

I've got a customer thats purchasing a Hatteras LRC and wants to install a new watermaker on her.* I'm not up to speed on watermakers myself.* Can anyone offer a good, reliable brand?

MT*

We've a Village Marine STW-400 (16.6 GPH) we installed earlier this year, and love it. Easy to operate and maintain, and the factory is easy to access for questions. They offer tremendous deals at boat shows (we got 25% off list), so keep your eyes peeled.

Corporate Sales Office - Gardena, California
2000 W. 135th Street, Gardena, CA 90249
(310) 516-9911 (800) 421-4503 (310) 538-3048 Fax
Email: sales@villagemarine.com

A water maker may be in the future if we head south.* The Eagle had a H2O water maker but we did not use, it need rebuilding so I took it out and dismantled it.* Ok, so I tore it a part.* (-;* There is really not that much to them, pre filter, electric motor, high pressure pump, pressure adjustments, reverse osmosis filters, some tubing/hoses and the little secret electronic that test the conductivity of the filtered water.* The whole secret is the right water pressure and conductivity of the filter water.

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The bases is fresh water does not conduct electricity and salt/raw water does. *So the pressure is too high forcing the water through not removing all the salt, the water conduct electricity to an alarm, so the pressure is back off until the water is fresh and does not conduit electricity.* Not all that complicated for the money they want for them.* If you want more gallons per day then added osmosis filter and turn up the pressure until the alarm goes off then back down the pressure.* Oh, I do not understand why the price increase so much to increase the gallons/day as its just another osmosis filter for a couple hundred bucks

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Furthermore I would not buy a water maker for marine but a domestic one.* Many people/farms through out the grain belt have water makers for the house to filter out the minerals, which are a lot cheaper than marine for the same thing. **I would say I live on a farm rather than say I own a boat. $$$$$$.

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So anyway, I will rebuild/build my own, buy a domestic and/or find a refurbish one as people with money are always up grading/increasing the gallons/hour.** On thing for sure you really do not need a fancy box with whistle and bells. To me the brand name just like a boat is not that important as you are paying extra for the name.*

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Any more updates or recommendations on water makers?
We are getting the planning started for our next trip south and I indulged my wife on the last trip with almost unlimited supplies of fresh water and set ridiculously high standards for the future..... So high that she's now insisting that dishes have to be rinsed in fresh water, and clothing is somehow "cleaner" if washed in fresh.
I'm looking for info on the smaller brands as I understand once you start using one, it's best if it is run frequently.
Jon

Jon, We used the Village Marine Little Wonder 12 volt model for over ten years and tens of thousands of miles of cruising. It worked flawlessly and needed only regular scheduled maintenance. Get the system with the flush kit and booster pump. Chuck

Another vote for the Village Marine unit.* Ours is the 600 gpd unit.* The only problem we had was a bad batch of pickling cartridges, where the factory used double the amount of chemical they should have and it destroyed some of the seals.* VM replaced them (reluctantly) for free.

When I researched this, I found the VM manufactured components for competitors and suppled many military units - always a good sign.* They are now owed by Parker/Racor which won't make them any cheaper but will mean parts should always be available.*

I'd be prepared to plumb in additional filtering for the raw water before it reaches their pre-filter.* This isn't such a big issue in your part of the world, but we have so much algae in the NW, pre-pre-filtering is essential.* We use a plankton filter (50 microns), then a string filter (20 microns) before it reaches the 5 micron pre-filter.* Without those, our pre-filters lasted only about 5 hours, and while I could blast them clean with a pressure washer, they would only last about 3 hours more before clogging again.*

Finally, don't buy the pre-filters or charcoal filters from VM.* www.filters.com is a lot cheaper.

I have heard good things about Spectra although no experience here....

Cap'n Chuck,
Is your's the component model or the small package unit? Did you plumb to an existing intake?
Delfin
Heading to the Bahamas so will truly look at pre-pre filters.
Jon

I've had Village Marine and Watermakers desalinators; both work well and the service is excellent. The following suggestions may be of use:

The component models often make for a better installation, as the various bits can be located where space and logic dictate. There is seldom space in the engine room for a skid mounted unit without obstructing access to something important.

No automatic sampling - less to go wrong. Have a sample valve and taste the product water. If it tastes good, divert it to your tanks, if it's still salty, run the system some more.

15 to 20 gal/hr is a useful size. The hi-pressure and lift pumps use a fair amount of power, so go with 110v/200v assuming you have a generator.

When the system is full of sea water it should be run every few days to keep it fresh. Alternatively flush with fresh water after use. Insist on a charcoal filter. It removes chlorine from the water in your tanks which would otherwise destroy the membrane.

Pumps and motors live much longer if they are run every couple of weeks. Fit an overboard diverter valve to the lift pump so it can be run without pushing salt water into the rest of the system. The fresh water flush permits the hi-pressure pump and membrane to be "exercised" without getting them salty. You also make water pure enough for topping up batteries that way.

The filters should have clear bowls so you can see the build-up of crud on the elements. A plastic bowl-wrench is a must. Mount the filters high enough that a catch-pan can be slid underneath. Things get nasty in there and you don't want stinky seawater spilling all over the engine room floor.

I don't know if it is the same in the US as here in Aus but out here there a quite a few local makers of RO systems that come in a lot cheaper than the propriety brands.
I had a local guy knok my unit up for 8k. That is s/s HP pump , 120 lt/hr (30 gal) 2 x 48" membranes very manual but works a treat.
The same unit with a brass pump and 1 membrane (15 gal/hr) works out at $5500.00 add $60.00 for a salinometer and that is a good value system.
The local guys on the marina usually know where or who locally supplies such items.

Benn

Jon wrote:

Cap'n Chuck,
Is your's the component model or the small package unit? Did you plumb to an existing intake?
Delfin
Heading to the Bahamas so will truly look at pre-pre filters.
Jon

Click to expand...

Jon, Ours was the small package unit, which is pretty much plug and play. If I had to do it over, I would get the seperate components, they just make working on the unit easier. It might have just been my location, under the quarter berth. The watermaker had its own water intake with its own pre-filter, which is a must, as is the small booster pump. I see no reason why a shared intake would be a problem.* Chuck

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Jon, they don't recommend plumbing to a common intake, but a lot of people do (like me).* Just be aware that the low pressure pump is sucking through the filters, so it doesn't take much pressure drop to trigger a low pressure cut out on most units.* Mine is plumbed to the genset raw water lift muffler, and rarely runs when I am making water underway, so I don't have a problem.

In*water makers, think GPH (gallons per hour) instead of*GPD (gallons per day).* It keeps your run time as short as possible.

We had an Aqua Marine 24 GPH modular unit and we only pickled it once in 7 years and it still gave out it's rated output*within acceptable*TDS limits.* We now have a Village Marine (3 years) which has a better constructed pump.* We like the simple No-Frills unit.* When we need to rinse the membrane we have to do it manually but we don't have to worry about sensors, solenoids and component failures.

If you are going to buy a Village Marine modular unit, pay the extra dollars and get a get a standard 40" pressure vessel.* Village Marine sells their proprietary pressure vessels shorter (38") than the industry standard of 40".* If and when you need to replace the membrane you have to buy one of theirs.* They are about ~$520.00.* You can buy a Dow Filmtec 40' membrane for less than $200.00.

Spectra Watermakers are good*if you are a 12 volt boat without a generator.* You can make water underway and directly off the batteries.* The Clark pump is one of the most efficient out there.* If you need to repair the pump though it has be sent back to Spectra.** We like AC water makers.* When we run the generator, we charge batteries, make water and run the water maker.* We find that at less than 2 hours per day it takes care of all our*needs.* We can maker water off the inverter if we want to but what we take out (amps) has to be put back.

Someone said they would buy a house hold unit to save money.* It won't work!* Membranes are constructed for different types of water and run at different pressures.*

Larry/Lena
Hobo KK42
Huatulco, Oaxaca, MX

Larry

Good points on operating a water maker on AC vs DC during one's morniing or evening*genset ritual. I was talking to several suppliers at the latest Seattle boat show and they agreed with the AC concept of using your genset about 2 hours per day to keep boats like ours with sufficient water. For the serious cruisers like you, another option for AC needs*is the cruise generator driven off the engine.

It is also amazing how propane is disappearing with induction cook tops and convection microwaves now operating off inverters only. We replaced our fancy gas range at home with an induction unit and electric oven - no looking back.

http://www.wolfwatermakers.com/

I don't have one but I have heard good things about this company.

Not much to a water maker.* I took our H2O water maker apart.* The are comprised of pre filters, high pressure pump with PSI adjustment, electric motor, membranes, a saline tester and a bunch of tubing.* The trick is in the membrane and setting the PSI correctly to which forces the water through the membrane.* You can buy all the components separately.* The saline tester is an electronic devise that the fresh water passes through it the water is to salty it will conduct a current light up a light, so the PSI has to be back off.** If I was going to buy a water maker I would buy a used refurbished one for like 50% of new. The Village water maker is made in Ballard under the Ballard bridge.


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I think domestic and marine use the same membrane its the PSI that is the variable?* **We have relative that live on farms through out the mid west and a large % have water makers that look basically like a marine water makers but a lot cheaper and many have a store space for the water.* Anyway, you might want to look into it before spending 7 to 10 grand.***

I want water maker*sized for *produced the amount of water in the length of time we will be running the gen set per day.* The GPH is dependant on the membrane size so you can increase the capacity.* When wee need a water maker again I will probable just rebuild/modify what I have left of the H20.

Phil Fill wrote:

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Not much to a water maker...............................I think domestic and marine use the same membrane its the PSI that is the variable?*

Click to expand...

Phil:* You are absolutely right about there not being much to a water maker.* We have a 5 and a 20 micron pre filter,*a booster pump, a hi-pressure pump,* a membrane and pressure vessel, a pressure gauge and*2 valves (plus a lot of hoses).* If you are handy, you can make one for about $2,000 in off the shelf parts.* You can also spend*$4,000 for a AC-20 GPH*complete or up to*$10,000 for the same capacity*based on how simple or how complicated you want to make it**
There is a big difference in membranes based on application.* They are basically constructed the same way but one for domestic water will not remove the 3.5% sodium chloride that sea water has and are not constructed to operate at 800 to 900 psi.

http://www.appliedmembranes.com/filmmem.htm

Larry/Lena
Hobo KK42
Huatulco, Oaxaca, MX


-- Edited by Larry M on Wednesday 2nd of February 2011 12:58:48 PM

Larry M.
Just found the download manual for the Spectra and it looked very interesting.
Does any one have comments on the Spectra?
I just talked to the Village Marine guy in California, who was helpful but pushed their membranes. He said his pump was not fan cooled ( Spectra looks to be),rated for 40C which would be dodgy in my engine room. I'll ask him about a 40 inch housing.
Jon

Jon wrote:

Larry M.
Just found the download manual for the Spectra and it looked very interesting.
Does any one have comments on the Spectra?
I just talked to the Village Marine guy in California, who was helpful but pushed their membranes. He said his pump was not fan cooled ( Spectra looks to be),rated for 40C which would be dodgy in my engine room. I'll ask him about a 40 inch housing.
Jon

Click to expand...

Jon:* If you want to go with a 12 VDC system go with a Spectra.* They are the most efficient but pricey 12 systems made.* We cruise a lot with sailboats and of all the 12 VDC units that have been installed in the last few years, they are Spectra, if that tells you anything.

If you want an AC unit there are many choices that will equally perform as well as a Village Marine.*

If you talk to Village Marine, ask them about the operating temperature for the pump and motor.* I believe**they are rated for under 130 degrees F (54C).* It is not uncommon for an AC motor and pump to run at 120F or ~50C continuously.* A good percentage if not the majority of water maker installations are installed in*engine rooms.

any idea of comparative costs of both the Spectra and VM?

marinetrader wrote:

any idea of comparative costs of both the Spectra and VM?

Click to expand...

You can get prices on line for*the Spectra*but will probably have to call*a Village Marine rep for their prices.* At boat shows*they are heavily discounted.**

Even if prices were comparable, I wouldn't put a DC unit on a boat that had a generator.* We try to minimize the run time on the generator.* Primarily we are running the generator to charge the house bank and make hot water.* If we had a DC water maker, it*would increase the generator run time since we would be replacing*DC amps that we took out to make water.* With our AC unit, we usually*have a surplus of water and find that the water maker is run less than the generator.

On a side note, Village Marine is now owned by Parker/Racor.


-- Edited by Larry M on Thursday 3rd of February 2011 08:44:22 AM

Just a quick photo of a typical modular system installed.
This is the local bloke type i spoke of earlier.
Made in Australia I know but same sort of gear should be available for you guys.
Benn

Tidahapah wrote:

Just a quick photo of a typical modular system installed.
This is the local bloke type i spoke of earlier.
Made in Australia I know but same sort of gear should be available for you guys.
Benn

Click to expand...

Big difference is ours make water, while the Aussie model can be used to make beer.* (Well, that's what I heard....)

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I took little different tack for my watermaker. I don't have a generator, just a large bank of batteries, so I researched the different DC watermakers and engine driven watermakers. I finally decided on an engine driven watermaker and purchased the components from George Walker of Quality Waterworks - http://qwwinc.com/index.html. I installed the system this fall and George provided excellent support and advise. This system makes 20GPH so I figure on a normal days run I can make all the water I could ever use. So far, I haven't tried actually making water after the install as I didn't want to disturb the factory pickling for the membrane but when I get back home to the boat (I spend the winter in Yuma.) this is one of the first projects.

windmist wrote:

I took little different tack for my watermaker. I don't have a generator, just a large bank of batteries, so I researched the different DC watermakers and engine driven watermakers. I finally decided on an engine driven watermaker and purchased the components from George Walker of Quality Waterworks - http://qwwinc.com/index.html. I installed the system this fall and George provided excellent support and advise. This system makes 20GPH so I figure on a normal days run I can make all the water I could ever use. So far, I haven't tried actually making water after the install as I didn't want to disturb the factory pickling for the membrane but when I get back home to the boat (I spend the winter in Yuma.) this is one of the first projects.

Click to expand...

That looks like a great unit... and since we typically under load our main engines the added stress from the pump is a good thing...
On a different note... not to be too picky.. but* a couple things got my attention in the first pic, the electrical butt connectors look like a failure ready to happen.. at least a true marine grade through connector with heat shrink would be way better.. and the high pressure line out of the pump cannot be allowed to touch the beautiful cross bracket ( stainless steel ? ) The high pressure line off the pump tend to pulse in operation and will wear through and create a big mess in that sparkling engine room in a very short time!.* Enjoy all that water!
HOLLYWOOD

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Thanks Hollywood for your comments. I'm sure some fine tuning will be needed after I actually produce water from it. Yes, the bracket is SS and it was the hardest part of the whole installation to get right.

Ron

A lot of the yachties out here fit engine driven water makers and it is a good way to go.
I all ready drive a 5 KVA gen set and a 1 1/2" jabso Bilge/Fire p/p off the front of the engine so it is a bit crowded.
Also having a 9 KVA diesel gen set I am able to make water at any time with out having to run the main engine.
Windmist,
That is a nice neat set up you have there.

Benn