Boat Brokers

I had placed my trawler with a broker and a serious buyer came along. Vessel and survey went well but found in top end of rpm range, one engine started to go hot. I made arrangements with the yard to check the inter cooler for blockage. When I talked to yard manager I found out the broker had called and told him to take the whole cooling system apart and I would pay for every thing. Broker told him that I had signed an agreement to pay anything and that he could spend the money. I never signed anything. It turned out that a broken anode had lodged sideways at the outlet port of the cooler restricting the water flows exit, causing the heat rise. Who do you trust? This is why we are better off selling and buying among ourselves.

Ron, just to protect yourself in case the broker or the repair place try to sue you to have a sit down with an attorney. A call from him to both other parties might prevent any action from them toward you to try to collect on a bill.


"The best defense is a good offense."

Thats crazy !!! Its like do we really think the politicians have our best interest at hand. Its all about making the sale. Used car salesman and lawyers are the same too. Its hard to trust anyone these days. Sorry to hear this story.

Hope the sale went through after that.
There is a concept of "ostensible authority" affecting the extent of authority an agent has(here at least),but the broker was employed to sell the boat not manage it. Amazing how integrity gets displaced by the desire to close a $ deal.

My experience so far has been few good brokers and a lot of bad ones and you don't always have a choice. I mostly just like to do things my self.

So the problem was investigated and the boat got fixed, correctly I assume? Were you out of touch and the Broker had no choice but to take action? Maybe the Broker did you a favor.

Afterthought. Checked the Brokerage Agreement for any authority you may have given?

Yes there is always two side to every story...
Ron, Let me remind you that the conditional acceptance of vessel you signed states:
Seller agrees to pay for port engine cooling service as recommended...
This wording was used after you admitted the cooling system had never been serviced as recommended by Cummins in the 10 years you owned the boat.

But... Did the seller agree to this prior to or after said 'agreement' was added to sales addendum?

Just because a broker writes a snappy clause in a contract does not hold either party to it. It must be signed by both parties as part of the P&S agreement.

dbltime said:

Yes there is always two side to every story...
Ron, Let me remind you that the conditional acceptance of vessel you signed states:
Seller agrees to pay for port engine cooling service as recommended...
This wording was used after you admitted the cooling system had never been serviced as recommended by Cummins in the 10 years you owned the boat.

Click to expand...

Busted...

I'd agree with freshalaska's earlier post. In my experience too, there are a few great brokers out there (like Jason at Watergate Marina in St. Paul, MN, who was incredibly patient with us, showed us a million boats trudging through the snow and I still feel vaguely guilty that we never bought anything from that marina), but in all our years boat shopping, brokers have killed more deals than they ever facilitated for us. The last one for example, we offered $36,000 on a Larson 310, within about 5% of the asking price so it's not as if we low-balled. The offer was accepted pending a survey. The survey came back generally good except for a few relatively small things. We waived them all except one outdrive wouldn't move up or down. The broker's own mechanic said it was just a bad hydraulic fluid pump, $450. We proposed that we'd have that same broker's mechanic fix it and take the $450 off the purchase price. Nope, they wouldn't budge and they scotched a $36K deal over a $450 pump (if that's indeed what the problem was). Who knows, maybe the owner was absolutely inflexible, maybe they had another buyer in the wings, maybe the mechanic was giving us a phony story or estimate on the frozen outdrive, maybe the owner didn't really want to sell anyway, but whatever the real story, taking them at face value, they scotched a $36,000 sale over a $450 pump. It was really annoying because we paid more than that for the survey itself. That was kind of the last straw, and ever since then we try to private-party our boat purchases whenever we can, and purposely try to avoid brokers.

dbltime said:

Yes there is always two side to every story...
Ron, Let me remind you that the conditional acceptance of vessel you signed states:
Seller agrees to pay for port engine cooling service as recommended...
This wording was used after you admitted the cooling system had never been serviced as recommended by Cummins in the 10 years you owned the boat.

Click to expand...

I believe there are now THREE sides to this story. derp...

I have conducted AND PAID FOR two full boat plus two engine surveys of different cruisers that were both advertised by the brokers as being "turn key" & "ready to cruise". Both had severe engine problems on One of their twin Diesel engines. I have also driven 300 to 400 mile round trips several times to just "kick the tires" so to speak of other boats advertised as being in great shape only to find boats that were worn out.
The last boat I drove over 300 round trip miles to see turned out to not be as advertised. The owner or broker claimed it had two "recently rebuilt engines" with inky 25 hours in them since the recent rebuild. I made an offer contingent on receiving the actual receipts of the rebuild of each engine. These were produced and upon reading them I discovered " recently" was in early 2011 & only one engine had actually been rebuilt and the other was merely overhauled. I cancelled the offer. Sad thing is had the broker not lied in his ad I might have continued with the sale process including shelling out approximately $2,000 for haul out and surveys. But with such fraud being perpetrated up front I have to wonder how many other half truths and out and out lies have and will come out of the mouth of the broker or owner?
I was born at night...But not last night!
Tebeau169

Geez what a soap opera. Wonder if the potential buyer is still around? Careful what you ask for seems appropriate. Lots of eyes on TF

tebeau169 said:

...I have also driven 300 to 400 mile round trips several times to just "kick the tires" so to speak of other boats advertised as being in great shape only to find boats that were worn out...

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The way that sentence was written I thought for a second you test-drove the boats themselves for 300 to 400 miles. I thought to myself, well of course the boat was worn out after you sea-trialed it FOUR HUNDRED MILES. What bonehead prospective buyer does that? But then I re-read and understood what you meant. Ha! I should try that next time we're boat shopping though. Hi, we'd like to sea trial the boat from Cape Cod to Annapolis, is that okay? Ha!

Reminds me of a long drive I took to Titusville, Florida once -- the photos showed a pristine navy blue hull so shiny you could see the photographer in the reflection. When I got there and saw it in person -- well, pelicans were nesting in the flybridge.

All any broker cares about is making a quick sale.

10% of 50K or 10% of 35K not a big deal to him , IF he can get the commission quickly.

There is always another boat to shlock ,

The internet has vastly reduced brokerage expenses,, a listing on Yachtworld vs a half page in a print magazine.

Purchasers drive hundreds of miles , so fiction in the listing is cost free for the broker.

Sometimes the broker only has the owners say about things like engine condition , although the broker should at least once before listing go on board and take a look for himself at the general condition..

"Sometimes the broker only has the owners say about things like engine condition , although the broker should at least once before listing go on board and take a look for himself at the general condition.."


Agreed - but most do not.

Does anybody know what FL gov't agency issues boat broker licenses? If the state issues licenses it has a method to discipline its licensees and revoke them as well. Has anybody used the complaint process?
Tebeau169

Interesting how everyone piled on the broker. Maybe the mechanic wasn't being entirely truthful. Just saying'


Keith

tebeau169 said:

Does anybody know what FL gov't agency issues boat broker licenses? If the state issues licenses it has a method to discipline its licensees and revoke them as well. Has anybody used the complaint process?
Tebeau169

Click to expand...

Taking a boat to survey should be a well thought out endeavor by the prospective new owner. There have been many threads on TF on what to look for during a pre survey inspection. Dave Marchand has posted his version of a self survey checklist several times. A trusted knowledgeable friend can assist in pre survey inspections.

Getting assistance from strangers on the Internet to beat up on a broker is an iffy step. Unless you have had your money stolen, time and travel wasted by faulty advertising is part of the boat buying game. Especially on project or "too good to be true" vessels.

There are two brokers who frequent the TF site I'd have no problem using as Buyers Brokers. This step helps to shorten the search and may be helpful in providing a better experience.

I agree. I hate the "all brokers are bad" blanket statements. As in any profession, there are good ones, bad ones and the "in between". Caveat emptor.

I own a used car dealership, so maybe I'm a little sensitive after hearing our profession disparaged for years. Yes, there are bad car dealerships and dishonest car salespeople, but again, there are good ones in the mix as well.

The reason for over heating was a broken off zinc caught sideways in the outlet tube of the inter cooler. It held the raw water within the chamber not letting the normal flow cry away the heat. After calling 4 anode suppliers, they find too many installers put a wrench on the bronze cap nut then a pair of pliers on the anode and turn with too much force. All three metals used are very brittle. A strong pair of hands is all that is needed. One company suggested using Coppercoat on the base of the anode. It is one of the few lubricants that conducts electricity 100%. The Cummins tech did his job correctly, starting at the hull intake valve, sea strainer, raw water pump then inter cooler. The raw water pump had been upgraded to one made by Sea Board Marine. Www.sbmar.com, will show improvements. Plan to close this coming week.

You guys need to spend some time walking in the other man's shoes.

After reading this I see that the seller signed a CONDITIONAL ACCEPTANCE. This is a common form used after a survey and sea trial. It states that the buyer will ACCEPT the boat after the seller does repairs or lowers the price. It commits the buyer to the purchase if the conditions are met. This way the deposit made by the buyer is at risk if he does not close. If the seller does the repairs and the buyer does not close he can share the deposit with the broker.
A typical listing agreement does not allow the broker to do repairs at the owners expense. Professional brokers will make sure that any expenses to maintain the boat or get it ready for a sea trial are in WRITING from the seller.
In my office we have a seller sign a DISCLOSURE form stating that the boat has not suffered material damage. I try to get information about care and maintenance but many times sellers do not keep records. Buyers of course do not want to spend money for a survey only to find too many problems. Brokers do not want to spend unpaid time working to put a sale together only to have it fall apart over issues not disclosed by the sellers. Most surveys find issues that are NOT KNOWN to the seller however.

Tom.B said:

I believe there are now THREE sides to this story. derp...

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There are always 3 sides....HIS...HERS...and the TRUTH!!!!

yachtbrokerguy said:

After reading this I see that the seller signed a CONDITIONAL ACCEPTANCE. This is a common form used after a survey and sea trial. It states that the buyer will ACCEPT the boat after the seller does repairs or lowers the price. It commits the buyer to the purchase if the conditions are met. This way the deposit made by the buyer is at risk if he does not close. If the seller does the repairs and the buyer does not close he can share the deposit with the broker.
A typical listing agreement does not allow the broker to do repairs at the owners expense. Professional brokers will make sure that any expenses to maintain the boat or get it ready for a sea trial are in WRITING from the seller.
In my office we have a seller sign a DISCLOSURE form stating that the boat has not suffered material damage. I try to get information about care and maintenance but many times sellers do not keep records. Buyers of course do not want to spend money for a survey only to find too many problems. Brokers do not want to spend unpaid time working to put a sale together only to have it fall apart over issues not disclosed by the sellers. Most surveys find issues that are NOT KNOWN to the seller however.

Click to expand...

Very nicely written!!! Thanks for your input!!! I use a broker that I have built a relationship with over the span of my boating career. He does an excellent job. I have even gone FSBO on him...twice...but have always sold the FSBO boats through him. He did an excellent job on my last deal...basically reviving the deal that was pretty much dead...all for a fairly meager commission. But he knows I will always be back!!

FSBO.?

What is a typical brokers fee and how is it arrived at?
Never used a broker before.

manyboats said:

FSBO.?

What is a typical brokers fee and how is it arrived at?
Never used a broker before.

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For Sale By Owner....IOW, no broker involved.

Broker fees are usually 10%...not cheap!!!

Yee gods I thought it would be half that!

Sounds like a rip to me ..... but if a broker can get 20% more for my boat then I'd be stupid to sell it myself.

But boats vary wildly in how easy they are to sell so it would seem a set rate of 10% would not be porportional to the amount of effort and skill required to make the sale. In real estate it seems the goal for every broker is to beat the owners price down as low as possible and "get-ur-sold" so the broker can hurry to the bank and then do it all over again. I know a RE broker that won't list a house if he feels the price is'nt to his advantage.

I do agree with cardude01, not all brokers are bad and I mentioned a good one for example (IMO), but it seems to me there must be a reason why discussions about brokers on every boat forum I've seen always trigger a barrage of negative comments. Seems to me the majority is doing something to generate that reaction.