Where Have All The Smaller Trawlers Gone?

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Most boat builders are in it for primarily making money. Sure ego and a few build cool boats..but for the most part...bottom line.

Look at boating magazines. For the average cruiser...the coolest mag ever written in my mind was the small boat journal. Within a few years after trying to keep the doors open...it migrated from small cruisers to center console and bow riders....I stopped subscribing as it became like the others. Passagemaker followed along and follows the money...look at all the disappointed TFers that no longer subscribe as it seem like it is written for the 1%ers.

28-29 foot Sea Ray bow riders in NJ outsold the cabin models by a wide margin (someone may have the stats...just my perception when I was a captain for Sea Ray 2001-2003). Why? Most boaters are NOT cruisers.

So thinking where have all the builders or marketing departments have gone....the right question is ...where have all the cruising boaters gone. Add to that....the cost of all the stuff moder cruisers want push that cabin model WAY higher than the bow rider version.

Soooooo.....
 
One comparatively new boat design - -

which interests me a lot (we have an old Albin-25) is the Bluejacket-24 , http://bluejacketboats.com/ . The Bluejacket is probably too small and light to qualify as a "trawler" in the eyes of many, however, it would serve our needs nicely for a trailerable motor cruiser for up to two weeks on the water.

Notice that the Bluejacket requires much less power in order to perform on-plane compared to a C-Dory, for instance.

After many years using a Yamaha 9.9HT outboard for auxiliary power in a light displacement leeboard yawl, I'm still getting used to the draft and fixed prop on the Albin. It does warm the cockles of my heart whenever I see positive comments on the Albin-25 here from people who have experience in them.
 
BandB said:
I don't think the industry has. That's why there are so many Sea Rays, Chaparrals, Four Winns, Scouts, Everglades, Whalers. Those are the boats that they can build for the weekend family cruiser. That cruiser doesn't want a trawler to start with as they don't have the time for the lack of speed. Sea Ray 260 Sundancer $75k-100k. Sea Ray 280 Sundancer $110k-140k. Sea Ray 310 Sundancer $150k-175k. That's exactly who those boats target. Now, they're still out of the range of a large part of the young couples starting families so they get a 21' runabout for the price of a car.

Trawlers were never the starter boat for young people. Here are all the boats I owned before 2012 and my move to Florida. 17' Sea Ray Bowrider. Comparable boat, say an 18' Chaparral today is $23k. 22' Sea Ray Pachanga, $40k boat today. 24' Searay Bowrider, $50-60k today. 26' Cobalt $75k today. 30' Cobalt $175k today.

Glastron has a 26' Cruiser you can buy for $60k or a 29' Cruiser you can buy for $75k. Those are the starter kits today, the Bayliner's. Larson has a 27' Mid Cabin for $85k-90k. They have a 29' for $100k and a 31' for $140k.

I think those here on this forum don't really see the entire market sometimes. It's like Yacht owners who see nothing under $10 million. Trawler owners see the trawler type market. It was never the boat for the average young family. Yes, I know people who have always had Grand Banks, bought new, from the day their oldest daughter was 3. But they were the exception. He owned a large accounting practice. His wife was a lawyer. In the last 25 years they've owned 5 Grand Banks. They feel helpless now as they would normally trade in a year or two for a new Grand Banks, and GB as they've known it, will be no more by then.
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I tend to agree with this - and here in the Midwest Sea Ray is a high end (expensive) boat - I see a lot of people on Larsons, Bayliners, 4 Winds, etc, these things sit at the slip or on a trailer for 4-5 months a year then go to dry storage and last decades. A few years back I saw a 26 footer larson twin gas i/os and all the comforts for around 100k - now that isn't in my wheelhouse at the moment but I do know some people my age (mid-late 20s) that could swing a nice down payment and the payments on that thing - it isn't much more than a couple of nice Lexuses.
 
psneeld said:
So thinking where have all the builders or marketing departments have gone....the right question is ...where have all the cruising boaters gone. Add to that....the cost of all the stuff moder cruisers want push that cabin model WAY higher than the bow rider version.

Soooooo.....
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They'll be here when they're the age of most of the people on this site. Until then, they don't have time to cruise. And definitely want have time to cruise at 7 knots. They can take their 27' cruiser and go spend Saturday night 100 miles from home and then back home on Sunday. If they get a week, they can cover several hundred miles. Or just pull some skiers and tubes.
 
Moby Nick said:
which interests me a lot (we have an old Albin-25) is the Bluejacket-24 , http://bluejacketboats.com/ . The Bluejacket is probably too small and light to qualify as a "trawler" in the eyes of many, however, it would serve our needs nicely for a trailerable motor cruiser for up to two weeks on the water
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To the OP, I think we have seen now that if one desires a new small (pocket) trawler (cruiser), they are out there.

Models
RF-246 | Rosborough Boats USA
Dipper 19 – Devlin Designing Boat Builders
Eastern 31 Boats | Work Boat | Sport Fishing Rig | Eastern Boats
North Pacific Yachts | 28' Pilothouse Model

There are also hundreds of plans out there that could be had for one to build there own if one desires. My dad and uncles did just that when I was young. I don't think it's so bad the economics could keep the masses off the water. If a person really desires it, and has the will power they can find a way.
 
As this thread progresses engineers and chemists are working on developing new materials. With all the work being done on polymers, plastics and other materials who knows what will result. If someone develops a new way to link molecules that will be very strong, there could be a way found to do boat hulls and other parts by injection molding. The financial rewards could be huge for anyone patenting such a process. It could drastically cut down on cost for any labor intensive product such as boats. I don't know what it will be, but I am betting that someone with come up with a way to fill market demand.
 
Boeing and Airbus are studying the idea of 3D printing an entire airplane fuselage. Both companies are currently making increased use of 3D printing to make smaller components. I've used it to make parts for the interior of our PNW cabin cruiser. No reason it can't eventuslly be used to produce boats.
 
BandB said:
They'll be here when they're the age of most of the people on this site. Until then, they don't have time to cruise.
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Another quote: "I think we have seen now that if one desires a new small (pocket) trawler (cruiser), they are out there."

Sure are - a goodly raft of folks go cruising economically as we did in a C-Dory 22 Cruiser, one of the best small boat designs around for extended cruising. Before retiring we did lots of 1-2-3-week jaunts in ours. And with the lucky break of a "sabbatical" available to both me and my wife, even a 2-month SE Alaska cruise.

Had so much fun we moved up to a 26-footer with more creature comforts, and have been spending most of the summers on it for 17 years since retiring. There's a lot less lounging space than my dream boat, a 37 Nordic Tug, but it gets the job done. Even accommodates a third adult guest for 2-week stints in the wilds of BC or SE Alaska. Our 26-foot diesel sterndrive cruiser has hot water, watermaker, cabin heat, two-burner propane stove, fridge, head, 30A shore power, inverter/charger, tons of fishing/crabbing/shrimping gear, and 400nm range at 6 knots (only 150nm at 18 knots). Takes a big diesel pickup to haul it.

Our CD22 also slept 3, had dinette, 2-burner stove, and cabin heat. We used a big cooler, but many newer ones have a fridge. Not as cozy as the 26-footer, but a heck of a cruiser for the price, and low cost of operation and towing. With a 90hp outboard, they do 16 knots at 4-5 nmpg. At 3500-4000 lb on the trailer, they can be towed with a moderate-size SUV or pickup. Even now, a CD22 in good condition can be had for $30-40K.

There at least a half dozen trailerable cruiser builders still making good functional little boats, though new ones are considerably more costly than ours were back in the day.
 
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Marin said:
Boeing and Airbus are studying the idea of 3D printing an entire airplane fuselage. Both companies are currently making increased use of 3D printing to make smaller components. I've used it to make parts for the interior of our PNW cabin cruiser. No reason it can't eventuslly be used to produce boats.
Click to expand...

I was actually just thinking about this but don't have any experience outside the casual ("makerbot" type) applications. It seems like it would be even easier to adapt to boat building than for aerospace applications since boats are basically fancy plastic. You could use the same printer to make a 28 ft express on Friday and 45 ft fly bridge the next and given the precision of 3D printing you could "build in" not only the stringers and such but a lot of the components that would normally have to be molded separately than assembled likely saving significant time and money in the build out.
 
Some production boat builders are already using CAD/CAM controlled 5 axle routers to make the plugs for their hull molds and other parts molds. Some companies specialize in just building molds.
 
In a dual mold: Pressure injected polymer fortified, fiber and lattice reinforced, 150 grit add mix, cement based materials can build hulls and superstructure that are stripped in 24 hours and fully hardened (cured) in 48 hrs.


Weight can be reduced as well as rigidity, puncture and sheer strength needs increased... compared to the currently types hull/super structure materials.


Same molds can have slip-in dimension modifiers to produce different size/model boats. Material mix and fortifiers (sometimes slightly altered) can have consistency adjusted to provide many additional boat parts.
 
psneeld said:
Most boat builders are in it for primarily making money...............
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They all are. Otherwise they don't stay in business.

Anyone who thinks builders aren't building what buyers want (and are willing to pay for) is not thinking clearly. They research this stuff. Competition is stiff.
 
WesK said:
They all are. Otherwise they don't stay in business.

Anyone who thinks builders aren't building what buyers want (and are willing to pay for) is not thinking clearly. They research this stuff. Competition is stiff.
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I think you would be surprised at how many start ups there are that aren't and didn't.


But yes...they don't last or they evolve.

How is that boat company Billy Joel was affiliated with doing? Anyone kept tabs?
 
psneeld said:
I think you would be surprised at how many start ups there are that aren't and didn't.
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Way too many small businesses cater to their personal tastes rather than the consumer. They often don't do the research or argue with the results and ignore them. It's hard when you think someone in your organization just had a genius idea and can't wait to get started but you do a focus group and almost unanimously they reject it. I've had that happen and then people want to keep going and say, "but"...and think of all the reasons the consumer panel is wrong. I've seen some sizable companies that have never once used a focus group. It gives you something valuable market research doesn't. It gives you a response to exactly what you're proposing, not general numbers you can interpret to be to your favor.
 
Weather its made from beach sand or "frozen snot" as MR H. called GRP the hull is only 15% or so of the cost of the vessel.

As a pure chopper gun hull is acceptable to LLoyds ,

I have long dreamed of a tool that would lay GRP from a nozzle , so there would be zero mold costs , and a different hull could be created daily, hourly on small stuff.

It of course solid glass would be heavier than a well done foam core or an epoxy mold cured boat, but for a trawler the extra weight would be no hassle.The longevity excellent.

Egg box style interior assembly would be painted ply with enchanted forest as trim only.

Factory rebuilt with warranty would take care of diesel engine and tranny pricing.

Gas engines are cheap even new

Ring circuit wiring with switch and CB or fuse at user.

All this could lower construction costs , mostly hand labor quite a bit.

With low labor input there would be no reason to use $2.00 a day folks that have never been on a boat and pay thousands to ship it 1/2 way around the world..

The big expense would be the computer controlled GRP snot nozzle , and the surface finishing robots to sand the hull exterior.

For your next new build , just ask your computer savvy kids to rent some gear and to use the backyard for a week or so.
 
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FF said:
Weather its made from beach sand or "frozen snot" as MR H. called GRP the hull is only 15% or so of the cost of the vessel.

As a pure chopper gun hull is acceptable to LLoyds ,

I have long dreamed of a tool that would lay GRP from a nozzle , so there would be zero mold costs , and a different hull could be created daily, hourly on small stuff.

It of course solid glass would be heavier than a well done foam core or an epoxy mold cured boat, but for a trawler the extra weight would be no hassle.The longevity excellent.

Egg box style interior assembly would be painted ply with enchanted forest as trim only.

Factory rebuilt with warranty would take care of diesel engine and tranny pricing.

Gas engines are cheap even new

Ring circuit wiring with switch and CB or fuse at user.

All this could lower construction costs , mostly hand labor quite a bit.

With low labor input there would be no reason to use $2.00 a day folks that have never been on a boat and pay thousands to ship it 1/2 way around the world..

The big expense would be the computer controlled GRP snot nozzle , and the surface finishing robots to sand the hull exterior.

For your next new build , just ask your computer savvy kids to rent some gear and to use the backyard for a week or so.
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Actually on an efficient production line boat, labor is a much smaller percentage of the total cost than you might think. Materials and equipment make up the vast majority of cost. Now, that's not to say that efficiencies in labor still aren't desirable. One of the big advantages in automation is simply shortening the cycle. You find builders of 50' boats taking two years and more to build and builders of 130' boats with efficient production models doing so in less than 1 year.

In that respect it's much like home building. Every day it takes you, you have money tied up in it, money that is costing you. Also, slow methods lead you to ordering of equipment either late and production halting or ordering early and having it sit. A well oiled manufacturing facility would get everything in on schedule just before their need for it. Many would use the term "just in time" but I won't simply because that term is so widely abused.
 
The last boat I participated in building was a 26 footer. The boat came in at $190K. I just checked my spread sheet and the materials for the boat cost about $35K. Everything else was labor or other non-material overhead costs.

What saves money in production boat building is using molded fiberglass interior components. It is much less labor intensive to lay up a fiberglass component than to build a similar component out of wood. Of course, making things from glass requires molds which are expensive to build, but their cost gets amortized over the entire production run. All wood work is hand labor and gets pricey fast. Even a painted plywood panel has quite a few man hours in it since an acceptable paint job requires 4-5 coats of paint with sanding between coats.
 
So, it would seem:
  • There are all sorts of smaller boats being made today whether deemed trawler (whatever that is) or cruiser.
  • But, as with most exotic playthings (rivaling the cost of a Bentley or Ferrari) the costs keep going up.
  • Those of us on a hamburger diet want prime rib.
  • Similar to what I heard 5 decades ago regarding boat prices and continuing to this day.
  • The choices today in all manners of boats are numerous but with builders barely hanging on.
:flowers:
 
TDunn said:
The last boat I participated in building was a 26 footer. The boat came in at $190K. I just checked my spread sheet and the materials for the boat cost about $35K. Everything else was labor or other non-material overhead costs.

What saves money in production boat building is using molded fiberglass interior components. It is much less labor intensive to lay up a fiberglass component than to build a similar component out of wood. Of course, making things from glass requires molds which are expensive to build, but their cost gets amortized over the entire production run. All wood work is hand labor and gets pricey fast. Even a painted plywood panel has quite a few man hours in it since an acceptable paint job requires 4-5 coats of paint with sanding between coats.
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I'm talking production boats, so we're talking two very different worlds of boat building.
 
BandB said:
And the next generation will look back at today as the time when prices were low.
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In Addition:

Next Generation will also look at todays New-Boat boating market and say similar to what today's generation says regarding the here-in-now previous New-Boat boating market.

"Boy Oh Boy... Am I ever glad all the folks in last generation ate up the 10 to 20 X New-Boat depreciation on these beautiful used boats. And, look at all the great stuff they added... including previously very expensive dinks and tow behind runabouts. Great deals pervade!!!" :thumb: :D :dance:
 
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If you buy all the systems, equipment, engines, gens, cable, batts, tanks, etc, etc for a fully equipped 32 footer, it is almost identical to what you would put in a 40 footer. And packing all that crap into a smaller boat takes extra build labor and also makes it a PITA for the owner.

The incremental cost from going from 32 to 40 is not that much but the benefits are significant.

PSN- Enjoyed hanging out with you yesterday. And yes the coasties were on their return and I had to duck into a creek!!!
 
Ski in NC said:
If you buy all the systems, equipment, engines, gens, cable, batts, tanks, etc, etc for a fully equipped 32 footer, it is almost identical to what you would put in a 40 footer. And packing all that crap into a smaller boat takes extra build labor and also makes it a PITA for the owner.

The incremental cost from going from 32 to 40 is not that much but the benefits are significant.
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I disagree. Many 32 footers will be singles where 40s will be twins. That will make the engines at least twice as expensive on the 40 as on the 32. All the running gear for the bigger boat will be more expensive. In addition the base cost for the hull and deck will be considerably higher.

Actually, displacement is a good proxy for cost. For example a GB 32 displaces 17,000 lbs and a GB 42 is 34,000 lbs. That factor of 2 will definitely show up in the cost. So I would say that the incremental cost of going from 32 to 40 feet will generally be at least 100%. That seems pretty significant to me.

An example is the Hinckley T34 (14000 lbs) which runs about $600K for the base boat and the Hinckley T43 (28,000 lbs) which is about $1.6M. Both boats are twins and very similar in appearance, but the extra million dollars is the cost would be significant to me. Part of the price difference is in the power plants - twin Yanmar 260s on the T34 and twin Volvo 435s on the T43.
 
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TDunn said:
An example is the Hinckley T34 (14000 lbs) which runs about $600K for the base boat and the Hinckley T43 (28,000 lbs) which is about $1.6M. Both boats are twins and very similar in appearance, but the extra million dollars is the cost would be significant to me. Part of the price difference is in the power plants - twin Yanmar 260s on the T34 and twin Volvo 435s on the T43.
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Actually the Hinckley very much makes his point. Two boats with very similar equipment. Now, I'd estimate Hinckley's gross margin on the two boats as follows: On the T34, $90-120k. On the T43, $240-320k. One T43 makes them ore than two T34's and takes less space in the factory.

As to the GB 32 and 42, since the 32 has long been dead and their is no 42 now it's hard to compare. However, over the last 20 years they have not sold many single engine boats. None of the semi-displacement builders have done much single engine work. The full displacement market has still embraced singles, but then they embrace it in all sizes. Most of Nordhavn's 60, 63, and 64's are single.
 
The price of a boat isn't necessarily directly proportional to what it cost to build.


Thanks Ski...see ya on the way back. :thumb:
 
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psneeld said:
The price of a boat isn't necessarily directly proportional to what it cost to build.


Thanks Ski...see ya on the way back. :thumb:
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It's based on what the market will bear. And in the market there's a lot less price resistance on boats as the boats get larger and cost more.
 
TDunn said:
I disagree. Many 32 footers will be singles where 40s will be twins. That will make the engines at least twice as expensive on the 40 as on the 32. All the running gear for the bigger boat will be more expensive. In addition the base cost for the hull and deck will be considerably higher.

Actually, displacement is a good proxy for cost. For example a GB 32 displaces 17,000 lbs and a GB 42 is 34,000 lbs. That factor of 2 will definitely show up in the cost. So I would say that the incremental cost of going from 32 to 40 feet will generally be at least 100%. That seems pretty significant to me.

An example is the Hinckley T34 (14000 lbs) which runs about $600K for the base boat and the Hinckley T43 (28,000 lbs) which is about $1.6M. Both boats are twins and very similar in appearance, but the extra million dollars is the cost would be significant to me. Part of the price difference is in the power plants - twin Yanmar 260s on the T34 and twin Volvo 435s on the T43.
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A 40 might be twins, but it does not need to be twins. Most trawlers are built overpowered and that is a separate issue. 120hp on a 40 footer is plenty for hull speed. That builders go way over that is silly. You can take all the machinery for a 32 and stretch the hull to 40 and change almost nothing but the length of hoses and wires. And some extra glass, painting and fairing. But 2-3x cost, no way. Unless MBA's are involved!!

But the boat market is in fact a silly place, that is for certain.

PSN- Fare thee well!! Wish I could go south this winter, maybe next.
 
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Helmsman, American Tug, Nordic Tug are but a handful of new builders with a 40ish foot boat in the lineup and not even a twin option.
 
Yes you could stretch a 32 to 40 and use the same power, but NO builder does that. The jump from 32 to 40 isn't just a length increase. Boats get more beam and more draft. The glass layup need to be stronger to handle increased loads. Fiberglass costs money and doubling the displacement means twice as much glass so twice the cost for materials. Larger molds cost more than smaller molds which means a higher amortized cost per unit for the molds. Running gear changes, cleats and windlasses get bigger. Wore gauges have to increase due to the longer wire runs. The interior is bigger and has more furniture. Again more money. More interior stuff takes longer to build. There is simply no way you can scale a boat up from 32 to 40 feet and not greatly increase the build cost. As I said, displacement is a good indicator of cost. Double the displacement, double the cost (at least). Look at Nordic Tugs. Their 34 costs at least $335K and the 40 starts at $605K. That extra $270K is not profit.

market pricing works when there is lots of demand. Boat building is very competitive (with a very few exceptions) with the result that it is generally a very low margin business. At least that is the way it is around here in Maine. Hinckley is currently a local exception since they have a significant backlog of orders, but that isn't always the case.
 
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So the bigger boats are where the builders have their sights. Why because the market is allowing bigger profit margins? Is that not what is happening with cars the dealer pushes options where profit is higher. With the relatively small production #s in boats it does not pay for a builder to continue building the smaller models which made their name particularly since they would be competing with their older used models on the market. They are under pressure to come out with something bigger and better that would make a owner of the smaller older boat want to trade up. New start ups may start small and if their branding becomes successful the boats usually start escalating in size and profit margin. I don't think there is any mystery involved.
 
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