Where Have All The Smaller Trawlers Gone?

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I don't know if there is a shortage of smaller trawlers and if is true that builders are not going in that direction it can only be that they are following the $ for in the end its all about where the $ is or is perceived to be. Those builders who cannot follow the $ in terms of boat type quality or price or effective advertising and brand building usually fall by the wayside. Some builders who made good boats fail because they miss out one or more elements of the formula. I also have the perception that builders who establish a brand name jump at the chance to build larger and larger boats dropping the smaller models which made their reputation. My best guess is that there must be more profit potential in the larger boats.
 
Certainly you can buy a used boat for less than a new boat. That should be obvious.


But look at inflation. Cars, trucks, housed, costs have gone up significantly. The boat that sold new for $150K fifteen years ago sells for $260K now. So you can buy that used $150 boat for $100K. You are probably earning one third more in pay than fifteen years ago but of course bread, milk and meat have increased in cost as well.


Don't fall into the trap of forgetting inflation.
 
WesK said:
Certainly you can buy a used boat for less than a new boat. That should be obvious.


But look at inflation. Cars, trucks, housed, costs have gone up significantly. The boat that sold new for $150K fifteen years ago sells for $260K now. So you can buy that used $150 boat for $100K. You are probably earning one third more in pay than fifteen years ago but of course bread, milk and meat have increased in cost as well.


Don't fall into the trap of forgetting inflation.
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Independent of inflation, a LOT more people can afford a $100K boat than a $260K boat. As I see it, a quarter of a million for a 30' boat is out of reach for most people.
 
Somewhat related to the new vs. used decision.....

A few years ago I was hired to write a coffee table cookbook for a 120' corporate yacht based here in Seattle. (No, I am not a chef. My idea of cooking is a can opener and my idea of gourmet cooking is a platinum can opener. I was hired for other abilities).

The yacht, an absolutely lovely thing, had been designed by Philip Rhodes and built by Abeking and Rasmussen in Germany in 1966. The captain and I had been discussing the maintenance of a vessel like this, which of course took a considerable effort with two big Cat diesels, two very large Northern Lights generators, the first active stabilizers ever applied to a vessel of this type, and all the other systems associated with a yacht of this size and purpose.

At the pier next to us was a brand new, even larger yacht that was undergoing the commissioning process. I pointed to it and asked if a vessel like that would require far less maintenance than the 1966 yacht we were sitting in.

The captain laughed and said (I'm paraphrasing), "At first, yes. But all the things on this boat that are wearing out and will need fixing or replacing are the same things that are going to wear out and need fixing or replacing on that boat. So in the end, the maintenance costs for that boat will be about the same as they are for this boat."

"And," he added, "a big advantage we have is that this boat has already pulled every trick she's ever going to pull so there are no expensive surprises left in her. That boat hasn't even started to surprise her owner with all the tricks she has in store."

So while buying new certainly has its advantages for those who can afford to do so, buying used also has advantages, particularly if the used boat is of a reputable brand and has been taken care of.
 
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gaston said:
Talking to a local boat builder about a month ago I asked the same question whats happened to smaller craft 26 to 30" not been built quick answer was they take about the same time and materials and no one will pay for what they cost to build !
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And the reason the smaller boat costs as much to build is that it's being built in a big boat facility. Why was it fine for NT when they started in the 26' boat business and not so fine now? Ranger dosn't have a problen building a 26' boat and selling it at a profit.
 
manyboats said:
Why was it fine for NT when they started in the 26' boat business and not so fine now?
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My understanding is that as of a couple of years ago or so Nordic Tug put the 26' model back into production. I have no idea how many they have sold.
 
It sort of mirrors what's happened in my business, which is residential development. Fifty years ago, a "starter home" in my market was a two- or three bedroom, one bath, 1,100 square foot rancher with no air conditioning. It may or may not have had an open carport. It certainly would not have had a two-car garage.

Today, a starter home features 1800 square feet, three bedrooms, two baths, a two-car garage and air conditioning. The energy efficiency of the new home is far superior, thanks to better insulation and windows.

A builder in my area cannot make money building yesterday's starter home. New building lots are too expensive and there are too many existing homes on the market. And most buyers buy the biggest house that they can qualify for.
 
ABfish said:
And most buyers buy the biggest house that they can qualify for.
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And that is where the rubber meets the road. Before the real estate bust a few local builders went belly up trying to develop homes under 2,000 square feet. I was flabbergasted when house shopping then and found 2,800-3,500 square feet was the "norm" for new homes in my area. 4,000 square feet was not at all uncommon. We happily kept our 25 year old 1,200 square footer and remodeled.

The same mentality applied to boating has been the downfall of far more than a few newbie boaters. I've lost track of how many 40-50' "fixer upper" boats I've seen sold then come back on the market, I assume after the new owner finds out what a money pit they bought.
 
WesK said:
Certainly you can buy a used boat for less than a new boat. That should be obvious.


But look at inflation. Cars, trucks, housed, costs have gone up significantly. The boat that sold new for $150K fifteen years ago sells for $260K now. So you can buy that used $150 boat for $100K. You are probably earning one third more in pay than fifteen years ago but of course bread, milk and meat have increased in cost as well.


Don't fall into the trap of forgetting inflation.
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IMHO - When shopping for and then finding and then purchasing a good condition used boat... the term inflation has little to do with final price; as long as the buyer is sharp and seller is flexible. Whereas dollar-inflation permeates throughout all new boats... from cost of rudder to engines/tranys to the blinds on windows.

Dealen horses and dealen boats taint too much different; old-world term is "Horse Traden"! One difference is that you are not supposed to look a gift horse in the mouth. Well - - > You better look a gift boat in the mouth (err bilge)... cause if you don't it may become a true hole in the water into which you throw gobs of money. :dance:
 
sunchaser said:
The small trawler business is pretty strong. Ranger Tug sales are booming. Both AT and NT have pretty decent sales numbers reported for the 32 and 34 foot models. Back Cove is doing quite well. North Pacific continues to make decent vessels. Helmsman is moving a few new ones. Yada yada.

The market remains rife with decent 35 to 40 footers in the used recycle bin. John T, they are out there, not sure I understand the concern.
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http://rosboroughboatsusa.com/rf-246/
 
Codger2 said:
Again.....to build my boat today would cost 2.5 to 3 times what I paid for a 9 year old OA 42. To buy new is a waste of money when one can buy an older pedigreed boat and fix the warts and pimples for a hell uv a lot less money! :blush:
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Walt I am hoping that might in the end swing a sale in my direction, because although down under here we do have several makers of boats in the 32' and up categories, they are still pretty costly compared to what I am asking...and I've fixed most of those 'warts & pimples' already...

Check out the Integrity series here...'course, if I won Lotto or Powerball...

Integrity Boats - Home
 

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Continued good luck in the sale of Lotus Pete, seems odd the amount of Aussies coming on this forum looking to import used. A fool like me would think well loved boats would sell easier locally.
 
Great Harbour builds new N37

David Rive said:
Great Harbour has announce a trailerable trawler powered by 2 outboards. If I read their website correctly it will be 35 feet long. Introductory price is $215k. Built in Florida. It will be interesting to see if they get many takers.
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Great Harbour (Gainsville FL) is also again building the N37. It is a great small trawler with big trawler space. Full standup engine room is to die for! Quality built and engineered for long life and easy maintenance. Check-out this time lapse video!

 
If one has the funds to strike quickly, there were/are really good deals to be found on newer or new boats and houses. Sometimes the builder will give a sweetheart deal on a new vessel just to keep the doors open. The bigger vessels can be the better deals. As noted, the build costs for a 35 footer may be surprisingly close to the same builders 45.

Three or four years ago many very well known boat builders had stopped building smaller vessels entirely. But they kept selling a few larger vessels. I know of a new larger one already built where the buyer went bankrupt before final payments completed. It could be had for about 70% of build price. Another case where hull had been started and the buyer had gone belly up after first amounts paid up. Houses in my area the same kind of deals.

Boating has always been expensive whether big or small. Toy things tend to be that way. Buying the larger baubles at a very large discount is indeed possible.
 
sunchaser said:
The small trawler business is pretty strong. Ranger Tug sales are booming. Both AT and NT have pretty decent sales numbers reported for the 32 and 34 foot models. Back Cove is doing quite well. North Pacific continues to make decent vessels. Helmsman is moving a few new ones. Yada yada.

The market remains rife with decent 35 to 40 footers in the used recycle bin. John T, they are out there, not sure I understand the concern.
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And don't forget about the Rosborough 246, now being made by Eastern!
 
Who exactly is the target demographic for the "Smaller Trawler"? If we ignore the fast trawlers and cruisers, it's boaters who are retired because they have the time. But they wouldn't live on the boat full time because it's "small". So they have to keep their house.

These are the people who - previously - pulled a couple of hundred thousand dollars out of their home values by refinancing or a HELOC. But with houses just now recovering in most parts of the country to their prior levels, there's a "lost decade" of appreciation.

And then you have all the old fiberglass trawlers and cruisers - they haven't gone anywhere (though many have gone "downhill"). There just isn't any way for a new small trawler to compete with those boats in any kind of substantial market.

And the race for larger boats continues. My YC has its own Bayliner 45/47/49 motoryacht fleet, but the new jump is to older 50-52 Oceans (MKII and newer) - we have a row of 5 of them (3 added to the club this year). As these larger boats continue to ratchet down in price everyone wants to go larger. And with diesel fuel locally sitting at $2.19 there's no incentive to go "small".
 
refugio said:
Who exactly is the target demographic for the "Smaller Trawler"? If we ignore the fast trawlers and cruisers, it's boaters who are retired because they have the time. But they wouldn't live on the boat full time because it's "small". So they have to keep their house..
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Or like me, they choose to keep a house for various reasons. Not everyone's dream is to sail (or motor) off into the sunset.
 
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Another desire some us have is for a trailerable trawler. Our Albing 25 is ideal for us. We like the Albin's economy in both price and power compared to a C-Dory 23 or 25.
 
We lived on Bay Pelican continuously for 14 months and now do so for four to five months a year. At 42 feet she is sufficient and comfortable. We found we are limited, however, to only 35 guests for a cocktail party at anchor.

For every benefit I can think of with a larger boat I can think of a downside. I concede that someone who has lived on a 48 foot boat may have the same thoughts.
 
sunchaser said:
If one has the funds to strike quickly, there were/are really good deals to be found on newer or new boats and houses. Sometimes the builder will give a sweetheart deal on a new vessel just to keep the doors open. The bigger vessels can be the better deals. As noted, the build costs for a 35 footer may be surprisingly close to the same builders 45.

Three or four years ago many very well known boat builders had stopped building smaller vessels entirely. But they kept selling a few larger vessels. I know of a new larger one already built where the buyer went bankrupt before final payments completed. It could be had for about 70% of build price. Another case where hull had been started and the buyer had gone belly up after first amounts paid up. Houses in my area the same kind of deals.
.
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The problem on any of those deals is they are so dangerous and too often the only way you'll get the boat finished is by buying the builder. Also, when businesses are insolvent and about to go under, quality becomes a major issue. I want to be sure anyone I buy a boat from or order one from is financially stable and can complete the job with quality.

I've also seen a lot of those great deals that were not as advertised. Northern Marine is the first name to come to my mind. They were giving anyone who would buy an unbelievable deal, but then those boats were never completed.
 
Moby Nick said:
Another desire some us have is for a trailerable trawler. Our Albing 25 is ideal for us. We like the Albin's economy in both price and power compared to a C-Dory 23 or 25.
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It seems most here have a hard time focusing on small boats.

The Albin 25 is a real solid classic boat. I could say .. "nothing else like it" but there are numerous boats on the continent similar .. but nothing in the US. The SeaDory isn't comparable at all. They are more like a flat bottomed OB skiff .. well that what they are. I like them .. would actually buy one but they are unbeliveablly high priced. Makes me think "I could build one for peanuts compared" .. may actually do that. But as a trawler there's no comparison.

Very few posts on this thread here are about small boats. Is my boat small? .. in the trawler world? .. I'd say yes .. and add that anything bigger is mid-sized+. But I can see if you own a 48' boat a 34 CHB could be viewed as small. Only if there are only two sizes .. big and small would that fly in my eyes. I view this w at least 3 and likely 4 size catergories.

So what about the small boats? You could almost say there's no such thing as a trailerable trawler .. especially an OB. The only boat under 30' that I can think of as a trawler is the Albin. Or something like Andrews boat.
 
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manyboats said:
It seems most here have a hard time focusing on small boats.
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Exactly. There's been a bit of thread drift here.... But as you say, Small is relative. You, I and Al appear to be the only "Small" boat owners here...
 
Heron said:
Exactly. There's been a bit of thread drift here.... But as you say, Small is relative. You, I and Al appear to be the only "Small" boat owners here...
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Well, the OP never defined what boats he was referring to so everyone's debating based on their own assumptions. I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with the OP's premise until I hear what it really is.
 
BandB said:
Well, the OP never defined what boats he was referring to so everyone's debating based on their own assumptions. I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with the OP's premise until I hear what it really is.
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Well there you have it Ollie, couldn't have said it better myself! Now, Stan, please stop trying to be so smart... never worked for you before. Gee Ollie, why do you always say that? Stan, that question's reasoning enough... please try and think about it!!

:dance: :D
 
Art said:
Well there you have it Ollie, couldn't have said it better myself! Now, Stan, please stop trying to be so smart... never worked for you before. Gee Ollie, why do you always say that? Stan, that question's reasoning enough... please try and think about it!!

:dance: :D
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Wifey B:

Abbott: Well, lets see, on the team we have uh Whos on first, Whats on second, I Don't Know is on third
Costello: Are you the manager?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: You know the guys names?
Abbott: I sure do.
Costello: Then tell me the guys names.
Abbott: I say, Whos on first, Whats on second, I Dont Knows on third and then you
Costello: You the manager?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: You know the guys names?
Abbott: Im telling you their names!
Costello: Well whos on first?
Abbott: Yeah.
Costello: Go ahead and tell me.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy on first.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy playin first base.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy on first.
Abbott: Who is on first!
Costello: What are you askin me for? Im askin you!
Abbott: Im not asking you, Im telling you.
Costello: You aint tellin me nothin. Im askin you, whos on first?
Abbott: Thats it!
Costello: Well go ahead and tell me.
Abbott: Who!
Costello: The guy on first base.
Abbott: Thats his name.
Costello: Thats whose name?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: Well go ahead and tell me.
Abbott: Thats the mans name!
Costello: Thats whose name?
Abbott: Yeah!
Costello: Well go ahead and tell me!
Abbott: Who is on first.
Costello: What are you askin me for? Im askin you, whos on first?
Abbott: Thats it.
Costello: Well go ahead and tell me.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy on first.
Abbott: Thats it.
Costello: Whats the guys name on first?
Abbott: No, Whats on second.
Costello: Im not askin you whos on second!
Abbott: Whos on first.
Costello: Thats what Im askin you! Whos on first?
Abbott: Now wait a minute. Dontdont change the players.
Costello: Im not changin nobody! I asked you a simple question. Whats the guys name on first base?
Abbott: Whats the guys name on second base.

Just a little excerpt....:D
 
My boat was originally built and sold as a 28' boat. That's on the documentation. In later years it was sold as a 31' boat but it's the same boat, they just added in the swim platform and anchor pulpit to the length designation.

Either way, I consider it pretty small for a trawler, yet both me and my wife plus a small dog have cruised on it for as long as 2 1/2 months. A small boat has a few compromises like a combined head and shower but it's less expensive to buy and maintain and less expensive to cruise.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.
 
WesK said:
My boat was originally built and sold as a 28' boat.
Either way, I consider it pretty small for a trawler, yet both me and my wife plus a small dog have cruised on it for as long as 2 1/2 months. A small boat has a few compromises like a combined head and shower but it's less expensive to buy and maintain and less expensive to cruise.
E]
Totally agree.
Back in the 80s my wife and I cruised on 30 ft sail boats and 28 ft power . We considered our cruising boating. There was plenty of room but you always knew you were on a boat. Today many cruising couples don't want to be boating so much as taking the comforts of home with them on the water thus the bigger boats designed with more cottage on the water aspects. For some the cottage type boat is a necessity. there is however still the option to go boating. More recently we owned a 38ft lobster type with a big cockpit and smaller interior which served us for 6 week cruises in the PNW. If we cut off half the cockpit we would be cruising a 32 footer and it was a boat not a sea going cottage. Presently we own what I consider a large BOAT at 48+ft but still it does not succumb to the cottage trend. There are plenty of used boats in the 24-34 foot range that will make fine cruising platforms for a couple even with occasional short term guests. The trend to bigger is often in my opinion a trend away from boating. I am not trying to say there is anything wrong with cottage boating but pointing out that boating can be done with much less for less.
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The bigger boat does typically allow you to cruise in bigger water. That may or may not be a concern for some.
 
For coastal stuff the bigger boat just has less weather down time.
 
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