Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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SeaHorse II wrote:


rwidman wrote:I agree!* I have a polished SS anchor and it is deployed for "jewelry" impact only.
My "anchoring" anchor is stowed in the second anchor locker.

"Jewelry" is right!* Compared galvanized to SS Rocna anchors -- the SS models were nearly three times as expensive.

*
 
I've got a lot of other things to do in early spring so I think I'll pass on the winch. The boat came w an oval deck pipe, a chain locker below, a Sampson post, a Danforth anchor and assoc hdwre on deck to keep it secure. The 15lb Fortress has much more area than the steel Danforth I have. I assume the Danforth was original w the boat and I've used it in at least 30 knot winds w 3-1 scope. I can use the weight savings of the aluminum anchor to add a bit more chain. No reason to believe that won't hold me up to 50 knots. For rock bottoms I'll use my Manson Supreme 17lb w about 12 ft of chain. Mid summer we'll be back to Thorne Bay and by then should know if we need better ground tackle.
Still have an experiment to do w the XYZ as well. So**** ...off to West Marine for a Fortress.
 
markpierce wrote:Peter B wrote:Mark, if you have not actually bought your anchor yet, could I respectfully suggest you read what Marin has said about Bruce/Claws etc, and do yourself a favour, and get a Rocna, ...?
Peter, the Bruce (or the equivalent Danforth) comes with the boat as standard equipment.* I'll consider something "better" (but galvanized) whenever I feel deprived.

Mark, how is it possible for you to be buying a new vessel, and just have to take the anchor alternatives they supply with it?* That, 'scuse my French, is, as you guys say...dumb-arsed.* Surely with something as important as the bit that sticks you where you want to stay, and you are paying for it, it's possible to say, "sorry guys, you can keep the whatever anchor you normally put on these things, I want this type of bow set-up and one of these".....I know I would......

*
 
Peter B wrote:

Mark, how is it possible for you to be buying a new vessel, and just have to take the anchor alternatives they supply with it?* That, 'scuse my French, is, as you guys say...dumb-arsed.* Surely with something as important as the bit that sticks you where you want to stay, and you are paying for it, it's possible to say, "sorry guys, you can keep the whatever anchor you normally put on these things, I want this type of bow set-up and one of these".....I know I would......


*
I like the Bruce. ...* I suppose for the same*reason Rocna users haven't upgraded to a better anchor yet.* Peter, have you upgraded yet?* Why not?<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="genmed"><tbody><tr><td width="100"></td><td width="40">
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markpierce wrote:

I like the Bruce. ...* I suppose for the same*reason Rocna users haven't upgraded to a better anchor yet.* Peter, have you upgraded yet?* Why not?
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I like my Bruce.

I did a little survey walking the docks in my harbor.**A good 75% of the boats were equipped with the same.

Could be everyone just gets the same ones the commercial fishermen use but I have had no problems with mine.

*I once set it with a 36 ft Bayliner rafted on me between two islands during a tide change. The water was moving so fast it looked like we were on step.

SD

*
 
The Bruce type seems to work fine in the heavier sizes.* I had a 44# with all chain on our sailboat, and watched it drag just off Kaanapali while we were sitting on the beach faster than you would have believed.* Delfin has a 176# Bruce and held firm in a 40 - 50 knot gusts on the west coast of Vancouver Island.

If I couldn't carry the bigger size that will set just from the sheer weight, a design that digs in quicker in lighter weights would probably be my choice, with the Rocna at the top of the list.* The Bruce was designed to anchor oil rigs and must be real whoppers for that job.* Once set, I don't think there is a better anchor than the Bruce because of the amount of metal it presents perpendicular to the directon of drag, but getting it to set seems to be a matter of its weight and bottom conditions.*

Just my experience, though.
 
Delfin wrote:

The Bruce type seems to work fine in the heavier sizes.* I had a 44# with all chain on our sailboat, and watched it drag just off Kaanapali while we were sitting on the beach faster than you would have believed.* Delfin has a 176# Bruce and held firm in a 40 - 50 knot gusts on the west coast of Vancouver Island.
I had a 15-pound Bruce "lunch hook" for my 22-foot pocket cutter and it set and held, everytime, first-time in the SF Bay/Delta mud.

*
 
skipperdude wrote:
I did a little survey walking the docks in my harbor.**A good 75% of the boats were equipped with the same.

*
We bought a Bruce for our boat about two days after getting the boat for two reasons.* One, almost every powerboat in our marina had one as did a good number of sailboats, and two, its reputation for setting in a variety of bottoms.* Today, most powerboats in our marina still have Bruce anchors as do a number of sailboats.* Boats that don't have a Bruce in our marina are most likely to have a CQR.* The anchor I never see except on very old boats, particularly ones that that are rarely or never used, is the Danforth type.

There is a huge "get what everybody else gets" factor in boating and I've noticed this is particularly true of anchors.* Of course there is no way without talking to all these people if they actually USE their anchor--- I suspect most don't or rarely do.* So it really doesn't matter what's on the bow to them.* But I have noticed that more of the boats around us that are used regularly are switching away from the Bruce and CQR to newer types.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 28th of January 2011 11:50:09 AM
 
Marin,
The Dude's talk'in about fishing boats and they do indeed use their anchors. Charter boats use their anchors frequently, sometimes several times during the course of a days bottom fishing. And they anchor deep (200') and at short scope. Your'e sure right about " "get what everybody else gets" " and fishermen sure aren't above that. But if they get something that dosn't work**** out it goes. I sorta like the claws but feel they are so popular mostly because they nest so nicely on the bow. But in this country "get what everyone else is getting ......NOW" is an extremely strong force. Remember when a huge number of people bought a new car every year just to have the bran new latest thing?* I think you got caught up in the hype on this anchor thing and would be better (or just as well) off w a claw anchor bigger than the one you had/have. I think it is/was a 33lb. If you had just gotten a 44lb claw your anchoring worries would have been over.
 
nomadwilly wrote:

I think you got caught up in the hype on this anchor thing and would be better (or just as well) off w a claw anchor bigger than the one you had/have. I think it is/was a 33lb. If you had just gotten a 44lb claw your anchoring worries would have been over.
I don't believe that at all.* We had a number of bad experiences with the Bruce (as do a surprising number of other people we know) and when we almost lost the boat to the thing we decided to see if there was something better.* Other boaters we talked to at the time who had Bruces related similar bad experiences and it began to dawn on us that this anchor--- which is still incredibly popular--- is perhaps not what it's cracked up to be.

At that time the Rocna was almost unknown in the US.* We'd certainly never heard of it.* We were researching other anchor types when a post to the GB forum brought the Rocna name to our attention.* We asked a few experienced boaters in our marina about it but none of them had ever heard of it either.* So we looked into it, read a lot of stuff about it, talked to the company in New Zealand, and since it seemed from all the testimonials that it* was outperforming most other anchor types on a general basis, we bought one.* They have since become much more well known and popular in this country.* But at the time we got ours--- some five years ago I think--- they were quite unknown.* So we certainly didn't succumb to any "buy what other people have" fever since at the time nobody else around us had one.

Among the people we know who have had bad experiences with a Bruce are people with different anchor weights all the way up into the 60 or 70 pound range.* Having an anchor a mere eleven pounds heavier than the one we had would have made no difference whatsoever to the experiences we had, particularly the last one.

As I've said before I am convinced the Bruce is a poor design as a small anchor.* The fact a lot of people have good luck with them is, I believe, more due to the fact that most recreational boats are never really put to the test with their anchors rather than the Bruce is an effective design when scaled down to sizes most of our boats would carry.

Designs don't always work equally well when scaled up or down.* The Bruce is, in my opinion, a design that works very well at the sizes and weights of its original purpose, which is anchoring oil rigs in the North Sea.* But taking that same design and reducing it to a few feet across and some* 30, 40, 50 pounds or so, I believe there are far superior designs that set better and hold better in that size and weight range.

When we were starting our search for a better anchor I asked a very experienced, long-time sailor and marine engineer why the CQR was so popular.* It's a puzzling design to me because it's set up to move forward in the direction of pull (like a farmer's plow) rather than resist the pull.* The only resistance to the pull is the double-fluke design's tendency to dig down as it moves forward.* But if it doesn't dig down, all it will do is move forward.* So for years I'd wondered why they were so popular.* When I asked this guy--- who has a CQR on his own 40' sailboat--- he said its popularity was due primarily to the fact it was the first anchor to come out that stowed well on the bow of a sailboat.* It's why he bought his so many decades before.* So Eric's comment regarding an anchor's popularity due to its ease of storage is right on the money in my opinion.

One of the things that really impressed us about the Rocna was the first time we saw the design everything about the design made sense to us (unlike the CQR and the Bruce).* We could see immediately how every feature worked and why it worked.* So we felt-- -and after using it for all this time, still feel--- very confident about it because its design makes total sense to us.* I'm not going to say the Rocna is the best anchor ever because I have no data to back that statement up and there are too many variables to say that any anchor is the best ever.* But in comparison to what we use to have, the Rocna is vastly superior.

-- Edited by Marin on Friday 28th of January 2011 01:49:40 PM
 
Just lifted this from Wikipedia, so don't know how valid it is, but it does provide caution on "inferior copies", which a lot has been written about.

<h3 style="color:#000000;background-image:none;font-weight:bold;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:.3em;margin-left:0px;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;width:auto;font-size:17px;">Bruce/Claw</h3>
Bruce anchor


This claw shaped anchor was designed by Peter Bruce from the*Isle of Man in the 1970s.<sup style="line-height:1em;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;" class="reference">[3]</sup> Bruce gained its early reputation from the production of large scale commercial anchors for ships and fixed installations such as oil rigs. The Bruce and its copies, known generically as "claws", have become a popular option for smaller boaters. It was intended to address some of the problems of the only general-purpose option then available, the plough. Claw-types set quickly in most seabeds and although not an articulated design, they have the reputation of not breaking out with tide or wind changes, instead slowly turning in the bottom to align with the force.
Claw types have difficulty penetrating weedy bottoms and grass. They offer a fairly low holding power to weight ratio and generally have to be over-sized to compete with other types. On the other hand they perform relatively well with low rode scopes and set fairly reliably. They cannot be used with hawse pipes.
The design is best cast rather than fabricated, lending it to very cheap production processes which take shortcuts on the heat-treated method used originally by Bruce Anchor Co. The genuine Bruce is no longer produced, and today only inferior quality copies remain available.
 
Thread Hijack:* this has been gone over and over again, ad-nauseum.

Anyone ever used a Barnacle anchor?*
 
nomadwilly wrote:

Woody,
http://www.practical-sailor.com/boatus/anchors/4rhod4598/01anchor.html

Conrad,
That's OK*** .. We've got a lot of questionable facts and opinions but Wikipedia being an expert on anchoring is a stretch. But perhaps I shouldn't speak as I'm no expert on Wikipedia.
My question is: have you used a barnacle anchor?

I know a bit about it since I have used one*several times.* Since this is the center of the universe of anchoring knowledge, I*figured I'd ask*about other's experiences, thus hijacking this thread.*
 
Egregious wrote:

My question is: have you used a barnacle anchor?
No but here are the results of an anchoring test that I snagged off he web by typing in "Barnacle anchor."* The itallics in the last paragraph are in the test writeup--- I did not add them.* The people who conducted the test stated they felt the Super Max was the best of the bunch under the conditions the test duplicated

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16.5 pound aluminum SPADE anchor with a 6-1 scope with chain did not set and had a maximum pressure on the rode of 130 pounds.
17 pound XYZ prototype steel anchor with a 5-1 scope with all-nylon rode set with 200 pounds pressure and dragged at 400 pounds.
17 pound steel alloy DIGGER anchor with a 5-1 scope and all-nylon rode did not set and had no measurable pressure on the rode while dragging.
21 pound aluminum FORTRESS FX37 anchor with a 6-1 scope and chain did not set and had no measurable pressure on the rode while dragging.
26 pound WEST MARINE Danforth steel anchor with a 6-1 scope and chain did not set and had a maximum of 200 pounds pressure on the rode while dragging.
29.5 pound steel BARNACLE anchor with a 6-1 scope and with chain had no set and no measurable pressure on the rode while dragging.
29.5 pound steel BULLWAGGA anchor with a 5-1 scope and all-nylon rode had a set at 300 pounds pressure on the rode, and was dragging at 390 pounds pressure.
35 pound aluminum DELTA anchor with a scope of 6-1 and with chain had a set of 400 pounds pressure and dragged thereafter. A maximum pull pressure while dragging was experienced of 900 pounds momentarily which was thought to be due to an underbottom obstruction.
48 pound steel CQR anchor with a 6-1 scope with chain never set but dragged with a maximum pressure of 575 pounds on the rode.
46.5 pound steel BRUCE anchor with a 6-1 scope and chain never set but had a maximum pressure of 400 pounds while dragging.
52 pound steel SUPER MAX 17 Pivoting Arm anchor with a 5-1 scope and all-nylon rode set at 570 pounds and began dragging at 700 pounds pressure on the rode.


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Marin wrote:The people who conducted the test stated they felt the Super Max was the best of the bunch under the conditions the test duplicated

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Hmmm.* The folks who conducted the test you refer to are Creative Marine.* Big surprise.* They manufacture the Super Maxx anchor.* http://www.creativemarine.com/

I wonder what Ford thinks about Ford products?
 
A 29# barnacle?* Hahaha, what they use that for?* A dinghy?*
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One of the most popular anchor used by PNW commercial boats and large pleasure boats is the Forfjord.* I have not seen tests or comparisons with other anchors.* We have a 97 lb Forfjord, a 70 lb QCR and a 70 lb Danforth.* The Forfjord is what we been using. *I have not really put the anchor to the test yet.* Does anybody have or know about the Forfjords? *********
*

*
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Forfjord Anchors




-- Edited by Phil Fill on Saturday 29th of January 2011 08:19:12 AM
 
Egregious wrote:

A 29# barnacle?* Hahaha, what they use that for?* A dinghy?*
no.gif
I just snagged the test that came up.* Didn't realize it was conducted by the manufacturer of the Super Max.* No surprise, then, the results.

The typical anchor on 36 foot boats around here is 33 pounds or so.* People we know with 30, 32 foot boats use anchors in the 28-30 pound range or even less.* So a 29 pound anchor, while not the biggest thing in the world, is not an uncommon size for a smaller cruising boat.

And weight is not as important a factor in holding as design.* If weight was the most critical item, the Fortress wouldn't work.* But it consistently ranks at or near the top of the list in terms of holding in tests conducted in the bottoms this design of anchor is suited for.* The Fortress we carry as a stern anchor is sized to be the main anchor for the boat.* It weighs less than 20 pounds.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 28th of January 2011 11:25:39 PM
 
Marin wrote:


Egregious wrote:

A 29# barnacle?* Hahaha, what they use that for?* A dinghy?*
no.gif
I just snagged the test that came up.* Didn't realize it was conducted by the manufacturer of the Super Max.* No surprise, then, the results.

The typical anchor on 36 foot boats around here is 33 pounds or so.* People we know with 30, 32 foot boats use anchors in the 28-30 pound range or even less.* So a 29 pound anchor, while not the biggest thing in the world, is not an uncommon size for a smaller cruising boat.

And weight is not as important a factor in holding as design.* If weight was the most critical item, the Fortress wouldn't work.* But it consistently ranks at or near the top of the list in terms of holding in tests conducted in the bottoms this design of anchor is suited for.* The Fortress we carry as a stern anchor is sized to be the main anchor for the boat.* It weighs less than 20 pounds.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 28th of January 2011 11:25:39 PM
The answer to my question makes you look like a real smart guy.

*
 
Marin wrote:
35 pound aluminum DELTA anchor with a scope of 6-1 and with chain had a set of 400 pounds pressure and dragged thereafter. A maximum pull pressure while dragging was experienced of 900 pounds momentarily which was thought to be due to an underbottom obstruction.
Never heard of an aluminum Delta, just SS and galvanized steel.

*
 
Egregious wrote:The answer to my question makes you look like a real smart guy.
Just trying to be helpful since you don't seem to know how to research stuff yourself.* I'll leave you to it.
 
Jay N wrote:


Marin wrote:
35 pound aluminum DELTA anchor with a scope of 6-1 and with chain had a set of 400 pounds pressure and dragged thereafter. A maximum pull pressure while dragging was experienced of 900 pounds momentarily which was thought to be due to an underbottom obstruction.
Never heard of an aluminum Delta, just SS and galvanized steel.


I can't imagine the usefulness of an aluminum anchor.* Makes as much sense as a lead airplane.* Can anyone*save me from my ignorance?*
confuse.gif


*
 
nomadwilly wrote:

Woody,
http://www.practical-sailor.com/boatus/anchors/4rhod4598/01anchor.html

Conrad,
That's OK*** .. We've got a lot of questionable facts and opinions but Wikipedia being an expert on anchoring is a stretch. But perhaps I shouldn't speak as I'm no expert on Wikipedia.
Eric, I'd agree that Wikipedia should not be viewed as the complete source on anchoring by any means, however this piece seemed to give a reasonable if brief picture of the Bruce. My main reason for posting though was the caution re Bruce knockoffs, which is consistent with what has been stated here and in other places.*

*
 
markpierce wrote:I can't imagine the usefulness of an aluminum anchor.* Makes as much sense as a lead airplane.* Can anyone*save me from my ignorance?*
confuse.gif
The Fortress is aluminum and is a very popular anchor.* I believe it's being used by the USCG on some boats.* And it always does extremely well in anchoring tests, usually being at or near the top of the bunch in holding power in sand and mud.

*
 
markpierce wrote:
*
I can't imagine the usefulness of an aluminum anchor.* Makes as much sense as a lead airplane.* Can anyone*save me from my ignorance?*
confuse.gif


*

Mark

Aluminum comes in many alloys. Aluminum has a fantastic strength to weight ratio, especially when you add magnesium, manganeze, copper, iron, and others in the right quantities. How about those aluminum wheels our cars roll on? Those are made of a high silicon, magnesium alloy. Pop can tops are a different alloy than the pull tab that opens it, and a different alloy from the body of the can. Three alloys to make a can. You would not want to make an anchor from the same alloy as aluminum foil, but maybe from the pull tab alloy.


*
 
Marin,
Yes** .. I think I'll do well w the Fortress and anytime it has setting issues I'll just get out the Manson Supreme with chain and perhaps a weighted shank.

Conrad,
My door's open to Bruce "knockoffs". I don't see why we should assume the Bruce is* better than any other claw and always will be. In fact I don't think it would be a stretch to say there's a good chance that one or two would likely be Superior. Perhaps you need to read this again*** ..from page 1.
http://www.manson-marine.co.nz/Anchor%20Tests/Practical%20Sailor%20Large%20Anchor%20Tests.pdf




-- Edited by nomadwilly on Saturday 29th of January 2011 11:28:25 AM
 
nomadwilly wrote:


My door's open to Bruce "knockoffs". I don't see why we should assume the Bruce is* better than any other claw and always will be.

It's my understanding that the door for Bruce-knockoffs opened when the design patent on the Bruce expired, but I could be wrong about that.* At any rate, I agree with Eric that this "no claw is as good as a genuine Bruce" thing is for the most part a marketing ploy.* Of course Bruce doesn't make small boat anchors anymore so the point is moot.

For quite awhile the Bruce rep in the PNW was Bob Hale, the publisher of the Waggoner Guide.* He told me on several occasions that the Bruce has design features that make it superior in performance to the knock-offs.* Things like the curve of the flukes, angle of the shank, and so on.* This may be true, at least in theory.

But we all know that anchoring theory and anchoring reality don't always match up.* We had a Bruce on our boat for a number of years and some of the boats near us had copies.* For the life of me I could not see any discernable difference.* True, there may have been subtle differences in fluke shape or curve or whatever.* But to the eye they looked identical.* Given the fairly crude nature of what an anchor does, I find it hard to believe that differences between a Bruce and a knockoff that are so subtle as to not even be visible actually make any difference to the anchor's performance.


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 29th of January 2011 11:42:41 AM
 
Marin wrote:

*
nomadwilly wrote:


My door's open to Bruce "knockoffs". I don't see why we should assume the Bruce is* better than any other claw and always will be.

It's my understanding that the door for Bruce-knockoffs opened when the design patent on the Bruce expired, but I could be wrong about that.* At any rate, I agree with Eric that this "no claw is as good as a genuine Bruce" thing is for the most part a marketing ploy.* Of course Bruce doesn't make small boat anchors anymore so the point is moot.

For quite awhile the Bruce rep in the PNW was Bob Hale, the publisher of the Waggoner Guide.* He told me on several occasions that the Bruce has design features that make it superior in performance to the knock-offs.* Things like the curve of the flukes, angle of the shank, and so on.* This may be true, at least in theory.

But we all know that anchoring theory and anchoring reality don't always match up.* We had a Bruce on our boat for a number of years and some of the boats near us had copies.* For the life of me I could not see any discernable difference.* True, there may have been subtle differences in fluke shape or curve or whatever.* But to the eye they looked identical.* Given the fairly crude nature of what an anchor does, I find it hard to believe that differences between a Bruce and a knockoff that are so subtle as to not even be visible actually make any difference to the anchor's performance.


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 29th of January 2011 11:42:41 AM
*

I think that you are correct re the Bruce patent Marin. It does make one wonder why they ceased production though; on the surface it would appear that they couldn't compete with their own design!Thanks Eric for that reminder - I had read the review before but had forgotten about the Ray. Great performance in that size range.
And perhaps Marin your comments re the performance knockoffs are bang on, although I have read anecdotal accounts of diminished performance so I'd still go back to my original comment that caution should be applied since not all knockoffs will have the same quality behind them as the Ray apparently has.
We're still looking at the Rocna although my partner (brother) is more inclined toward the Manson Supreme. One of us will win I'm sure.


*
 
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