Propane Locker

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I called the SAMS number and got hooked up with a surveyor at the national meeting. .

You call the SAMS office with no one there because the office staff is attending to several hundred surveyors at a conference center somewhere and the janitor puts you through to the conference center where a hotel employee takes it upon themselves to interrupt a business meeting of several hundred people, one of whom leaves this once a year meeting to answer your very important query about the efficacy of your propane system .... ok. you win, I got it now.
(or was it the ABYC annual meeting ?).
 
Doesn't sound like it takes much to qualify to be a "SAMS surveyor".

"Accredited Marine Surveyor®
1. Candidates must be currently practicing marine surveyors with at least five (5) years surveying experience, accumulated within the past ten (10) years, in the field of expertise which accreditation is desired. Credit of up to three (3) years of the five (5) years required may be granted for related marine experience. Acceptability of related marine experience shall be determined by the membership committee and/or Board of Directors.

2. Applicants must affirm that they will abide by the By-Laws Code of Ethics, Standards, official decisions and amendments to such of the Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors (SAMS®).

3. Candidates must complete an application form, supply a complete resume and submit for review a number of surveys as may be required by the Membership Committee.

4. Candidates must successfully complete a written exam on their selected field of accreditation as prescribed by the Testing Committee and conducted by that Committee or their designated representative. Cost related to administration of said examination shall be born by the candidates. Examinations will be reviewed by the Testing Committee and submitted to the Membership Committee."

5. Applicants must agree to participate in and meet all requirements of the Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors' (SAMS®) program of continuing education as established by the Education Committee and/or Board of Directors."
 
Semi-planing, your true colours are showing.

and once again i ask. show me my "admission". And again I say like all your other posts, you can't back them up.

Standardization should be the primary objective of an umbrella organization such as SAMS, that field a cadre of technical specialists. Without standardization, credibility and fairness go down the drain. In post #47 you scoffed at the concept of standardized interpretation and application of safety criteria by surveyors. SAMS isn't making it happen, and that's OK with you.
 
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Standardization should be the primary objective of an umbrella organization such as SAMS, that field a cadre of technical specialists. Without standardization, credibility and fairness go down the drain. In post #47 you scoffed at the concept of standardized interpretation and application of safety criteria by surveyors. SAMS isn't making it happen, and that's OK with you.


So everyone must do things your way or it's no good.
Didn't anyone ever teach you to quit digging :)
 
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So everyone must do things your way or it's no good.
Didn't anyone ever teach you to quit digging :)

The facts speak for themselves...and I'm not makin' this shyt up. If you want to do your parent organization a favor, put "standardization" on the agenda. And the first item on the standardization list is that members should NOT be using ABYC as the bible or as a crutch in place of common sense or experience during surveys. And when I call SAMS with a complaint about a surveyor, I expect some feed back about what was done to resolve the issue. I'm done. :)
 
I had read of some experiences with surveyors in regard to propane systems here on T-F. He came to the boat and the first thing I asked him is what he thought of the installed propane system. He pulled out his freakin' ABYC book and showed me the "applicable" paragraphs. I pointed out that ABYC is for new construction and this was an old boat. He began to argue that ABYC is a requirement, and said not to worry as he had a friend who could do an installation of an aftermarket system for minimal cost. That got my attention and I told him I wanted to call SAMS. He got very nervous. After speaking to the SAMS person I mentioned above, I told him to get the hell off my boat and not to come back.
I'm very surprised he didn't charge you, at least for travel time. You wasted his day.

I'm also surprised that if you feel you know that much about boats and their systems, why you bothered to hire someone else to survey the boat.
 
I would just suggest putting something under the bottom of the tank to raise it up off the floor so it doesn't leave a rust ring on the floor.

Or just changing the bottle out to a fiberglass one that can't rust.
A plastic planter pot saucer glued to the floor works for my ( portable) bbq bottle. A good fit with the bottle adds stability, it is lashed in place too. It is stored with the 2 "house" plumbed bottles secured in the IG OEM bottle housing, under a vented FB seat.
 
In reference to the fiberglass propane tanks, its my understanding (my brother in law owns a propane bidness) that they are now illegal. If you take them in to get them refilled they will be confiscated. I was told that Alcoa (major maker of aluminum propane tanks) put them out of business with guberment lobbying. Apparently citing safety aspects. I have no actuall knowledge of this, just scuttle butt around the propane industry. I own 2 of them and absolutely love them, no rust, corrosion, etc. and its easy to see how much fuel is in there. I refill mine from my home tank with a wet line.
 
In reference to the fiberglass propane tanks, its my understanding (my brother in law owns a propane bidness) that they are now illegal. If you take them in to get them refilled they will be confiscated. I was told that Alcoa (major maker of aluminum propane tanks) put them out of business with guberment lobbying. Apparently citing safety aspects. I have no actuall knowledge of this, just scuttle butt around the propane industry. I own 2 of them and absolutely love them, no rust, corrosion, etc. and its easy to see how much fuel is in there. I refill mine from my home tank with a wet line.

They are not illegal but DOT has issued a recall on one manufacturer whom I believe has been driven into bankruptcy. Suggest you check the link and make sure you don't have these.
 
Hey Boatpoker...what is your take of an open air install? Similar to what you see on the aft rail of many sailboats.


What about on the back of a flybridge under a bottle cover?


The ABYC guidelines I have say 20 inches for the locker or regulater venting from any hull opening.


So if on a flybridge, and open air, and more than 20 inches from any windows...and maybe common sense dictates not overhead a deep well cockpit...what are your thoughts?
 
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LP Tank recall

One manufacturer, the Lite Cylinder Company, had a handful of failures. Ultimately DOT did shut them down for violation of manufacturing guidelines and plant practices. The tanks were recalled (if you have one that has this manufacturer's name you should remove it from service and take it to a propane re-filler for disposal), there is no recourse for replacement since Lite filed for bankruptcy.

I've written about this episode a number of times and thus am familiar with the details. No other FRP LP tanks are affected. The other major small size FRP tank manufacturer, Regasco (they changed their name to Viking a few years ago), has had no major issues or failures, and has full DOT and TC approval, these tanks can/should be refilled by any propane refilling station without concern.

From Regasco's website...

Viking Cylinders is the new North American brand for Hexagon Ragasco’s composite LPG cylinder, a product that has been in production since 2000. With more than 10 million cylinders sold around the world...Viking Cylinders previously sold in North America under the Ragasco name.

It's become more common to see these being supplied with new boats, they are lighter than metallic tanks, don't corrode, don't scratch surfaces, and the liquid within can be seen, for the most part, to check the level. Contrary to popular belief they are actually less likely to explode in a fire as they will not BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion) like metallic tanks, instead as the resin burns away gas slowly passes through the fiberglass fabric and burns off in a controlled manner. They have a 5 year requalification period, and, perhaps the only downside of these tanks, they have a 15 year service life.

The FRP tanks are slightly taller than equivalent metallic tanks, and as such they are not always retrofittable, however, some new boat builders seem to be aware of this and are making lockers (some ABYC compliant, others not so) large enough to accept them.
 
Hey Boatpoker...what is your take of an open air install? Similar to what you see on the aft rail of many sailboats.


What about on the back of a flybridge under a bottle cover?


The ABYC guidelines I have say 20 inches for the locker or regulater venting from any hull opening.


So if on a flybridge, and open air, and more than 20 inches from any windows...and maybe common sense dictates not overhead a deep well cockpit...what are your thoughts?

I personally would not be comfortable with a tank within the perimeter of the hull that is not in an approved type locker with proper overboard drainage but don't see an issue with tanks securely mounted outboard on the stern rail.

Note that the standards say "hull opening", not "superstructure opening". the drain exit should be on the hull sides below the sheer.
 
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I see that it says hull opening...but no "size" of opening is specified.....so hull or superstructure....not sure it how thoroughly it was considered.

The possibility of a breeze blowing it back over the gunwale could be the same breeze that would possibly dissappate it leaking from the bridge.

Probabilities cut both ways.

Would you can side it as "unsafe" on a survey for insurance reasons?
 
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My "in use" tank is in a regular, factory propane locker which I believe meets all the safety requirements. My spare tank is on the flybridge, under the helm in the open air. It was like this when I bought the boat. I had a professional survey from a highly respected surveyor and he did not mention anything about this arrangement.


My thought is that any propane leakage would probably dissipate in the open air before it could get inside the boat. There is, of course, a propane detector in the galley.


Thoughts?
 
I see that it says hull opening...but no "size" of opening is specified.....so hull or superstructure....not sure it how thoroughly it was considered.

The possibility of a breeze blowing it back over the gunwale could be the same breeze that would possibly dissappate it leaking from the bridge.

Probabilities cut both ways.

Would you can side it as "unsafe" on a survey for insurance reasons?

Opening size - I take that as a port vent louver or some kind of opening to the interior, not anything like a throughull.

Without a breeze the heavier propane could drift down from the flying bridge into a window.

I would be reluctant to use the word "unsafe" but I would certainly note it as non-compliant.
 
My "in use" tank is in a regular, factory propane locker which I believe meets all the safety requirements. My spare tank is on the flybridge, under the helm in the open air. It was like this when I bought the boat. I had a professional survey from a highly respected surveyor and he did not mention anything about this arrangement.
My thought is that any propane leakage would probably dissipate in the open air before it could get inside the boat. There is, of course, a propane detector in the galley.


Thoughts?

Any propane tank should be stored in an ABYC compliant locker in my opinion.
The underside of your helm has electrical stuff that is no ignition protected. LPG may be heavier than air but it would not take much of a breeze to lift it up into your gauges or what ever other electrical stuff under there. I'd write it up as non-compliant.
 
Any propane tank should be stored in an ABYC compliant locker in my opinion.
The underside of your helm has electrical stuff that is no ignition protected. LPG may be heavier than air but it would not take much of a breeze to lift it up into your gauges or what ever other electrical stuff under there. I'd write it up as non-compliant.

Your opinions are biased by your stated business partnership with ABYC.
 
It does strike me as interesting about an open air install above decks on a trunk cabin trawler.


Either you let the gas leak flow naturally overboard or be dispersed in a breeze...or you are forced to place the tank inside the boat or run a vent/fuel line back into the boat or across a deck as a trip hazard....


Seem like allowing a leak to dilute naturally with outside air with the OUTSIDE chance that it will work its way back into an open window (not necessarily near it) is a gamble I guess I have to take till mandated otherwise.


If that possibility is really that high...then I am surprised that a much bigger deal about older boats and rail mounted units isn't made. Certainly the writings of propane accidents don't reflect that all "non-compliant" systems are disasters waiting to happen. Usually, like many types of accidents, not the basics were even considered.
 
Any propane tank should be stored in an ABYC compliant locker in my opinion.
The underside of your helm has electrical stuff that is no ignition protected. LPG may be heavier than air but it would not take much of a breeze to lift it up into your gauges or what ever other electrical stuff under there. I'd write it up as non-compliant.

Boatpoker, I've read and appreciated the stuff on your web site. It's pretty clear that you take the issues around safety on board seriously, and I think that this kind of advocacy helps us all in the long run. Thanks for your efforts and contribution.

That said, I appreciate some of the points that semi-planing brings up. As I understand things meeting ABYC standards is not required for new boats that are not used for commercial purposes, and certainly the standards have evolved since many of the boats out there were sold new.

So when you point out in your written survey that the install doesn't meet current ABYC standards what is the response from the owner's insurance company? I understand that this is a big grey area, but I'm concerned that this "non-compliance" is in reference to a set of standards that may not apply to the boat and its intended use. I think that's the heart of semi-planing's point.

Sorry to blather on, but I recently was essentially forced by my home insurance underwriter to have extensive electrical work done on my 110 year old home to the tune of > 20k. I was dropped into one of those grey areas after a home inspection. Nothing had changed for the worse during my 20 years of ownership, but this particular inspector felt that the outdated wiring was an issue, even though the local electrical authority (and the underwriter, before being provoked by the report) didn't. Is my home safer now? Sure. But I knew the risks when I moved in, judged them to be small, and would have liked to have done the work when it suited me.

So while I would certainly appreciate a surveyor pointing out how I could make my old boat safer, I would hate to see a case where expensive and/or extensive remedial work to meet current standards were forced upon me by my insurance company, particularly when new boats aren't always compliant, as you point out on your web site. Sometimes the insurance folks aren't experienced enough to read between the lines. So I do kind of question calling these things out in the written report.
 
You are hilarious
Here you go again making things up. Please show me the partnership agreement between me and ABYC or indeed my statement that I was a partner..

In post #34 you stated that you put on ABYC courses. You're obviously in bed with them. Nobody's going to get an unbiased reading from you, that much is very clear. You are the poster child for what is wrong with the system. Show me the safety data base that says these factory installed systems are inherently unsafe when properly maintained. And don't give me the bit about "compliant" versus safe. As stated above, you walk off and leave the owner holding the bag with the insurance company....by design...
 
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That said, I appreciate some of the points that semi-planing brings up. As I understand things meeting ABYC standards is not required for new boats that are not used for commercial purposes, and certainly the standards have evolved since many of the boats out there were sold new.

So when you point out in your written survey that the install doesn't meet current ABYC standards what is the response from the owner's insurance company? I understand that this is a big grey area, but I'm concerned that this "non-compliance" is in reference to a set of standards that may not apply to the boat and its intended use. I think that's the heart of semi-planing's point.

Sorry to blather on, but I recently was essentially forced by my home insurance underwriter to have extensive electrical work done on my 110 year old home to the tune of > 20k. I was dropped into one of those grey areas after a home inspection. Nothing had changed for the worse during my 20 years of ownership, but this particular inspector felt that the outdated wiring was an issue, even though the local electrical authority (and the underwriter, before being provoked by the report) didn't. Is my home safer now? Sure. But I knew the risks when I moved in, judged them to be small, and would have liked to have done the work when it suited me.

Sometimes the insurance folks aren't experienced enough to read between the lines. So I do kind of question calling these things out in the written report.

Correct, ABYC Standards are not mandated in the US, neither for older nor new boats. In Canada however some ABYC Standards are mandated by Federal law most notably the electrical standards. There are no laws regarding propane in pleasure craft in the US or Canada.

If you have looked at the sample survey reports on my website you will note a couple of things. I do not make mention of "Recommendations" as most surveyors do. I list my comments as "Comments". I don't "recommend" you do anything in my reports, I simply list things that I feel are worthy of note.

I clearly state in my reports which "Comments" are my opinion, voluntary (ABYC, NFPA etc.) or mandated by law.

I happen to believe in the "Standards" (and standardization contrary to what that other poster feels) but one must remember that all standards should be considered a minimum. There are several areas where I believe ABYC does not go far enough.

I do not solely rely on the law and ABYC but also throw in my experience when writing my report. I never take a job without ensuring the client has read a sample survey report so that they know exactly how I go about it. They then have a choice to hire me or not if they do not like ABYC being noted in my reports or anything else in how I go about my business.

As to the insurance companies. I can't do anything about how they perceive a report (if they read it at all). I do believe that they are making a business decision and it is entirely up to them to judge the risk they are willing to assume.
 
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In post #34 you stated that you put on ABYC courses. You're obviously in bed with them. Nobody's going to get an unbiased reading from you, that much is very clear. You are the poster child for what is wrong with the system. Show me the safety data base that says these factory installed systems are inherently unsafe when properly maintained. And don't give me the bit about "compliant" versus safe. As stated above, you walk off and leave the owner holding the bag with the insurance company....by design...

It's very frustrating talking to you. you constantly make things up and change your story when called on an obvious falsehood. You want "standardization" but are against standards ???????
You obviously have some issues and are simply not worth responding to again.
 
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Unfortunately....it seems that some insurance companies do rigidly follow surveys. That is based on has been posted online, and from the experiences of fellow boaters included my own experiences.

Fortunately...some insurance companies are flexible and with enough info and reason, they will decide their own risks, rather than just make up a workload from a survey.

This particular topic seems to have gotten pretty heated lately as one can see that one person's opinion is neither right or wrong. It certainly could be supplemented with industry guidelines to make it sound "more correct" or safer....but there is more to being right or correct than usually is presented in its simple form.

An good example might be the boater who has a compliant system and locker, but always forgets to close and latch the lid and forgets to turn the solenoid off. That never gets written up...but a tank, sitting out in the open air that gets religiously turned off and is far enough from windows for the occasional venting ....is "non compliant".
 
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Any propane tank should be stored in an ABYC compliant locker in my opinion.
The underside of your helm has electrical stuff that is no ignition protected. LPG may be heavier than air but it would not take much of a breeze to lift it up into your gauges or what ever other electrical stuff under there. I'd write it up as non-compliant.

Trying to stay out of the poop slinging. If I were having a survey, I could just remove the spare tank before the survey. As I stated, a highly respected and recommended regional surveyor did the pre-purchase survey and did not call attention to it.

What you say could happen could happen but it seems to me to be pretty unlikely. I'll consider it.
 
Unfortunately....it seems that some insurance companies do rigidly follow surveys. That is based on has been posted online, and from the experiences of fellow boaters included my own experiences.

Fortunately...some insurance companies are flexible and with enough info and reason, they will decide their own risks, rather than just make up a workload from a survey.

This particular topic seems to have gotten pretty heated lately as one can see that one person's opinion is neither right or wrong. It certainly could be supplemented with industry guidelines to make it sound "more correct" or safer....but there is more to being right or correct than usually is presented in its simple form.

An good example might be the boater who has a compliant system and locker, but always forgets to close and latch the lid and forgets to turn the solenoid off. That never gets written up...but a tank, sitting out in the open air that gets religiously turned off and is far enough from windows for the occasional venting ....is "non compliant".

I understand what you are saying and don't completely disagree but I know surveyors who have been sued even when they were right. I can't imagine what a lawyer would do to a surveyor who didn't happen to note that the propane system that blew up was non-compliant with what the courts already accept as "best industry practice" ie. ABYC
 
I generally tell my insurance surveyor (that i am paying) just exactly what I want him to put in his report. And just how many "deficiencies" he can write up, just so it looks legit.
 
I generally tell my insurance surveyor (that i am paying) just exactly what I want him to put in his report. And just how many "deficiencies" he can write up, just so it looks legit.

Wow ! The insurance company's lawyers are salivating just waiting to get that guy on the stand. Hope his assets are well hidden .... more likely non-existent :)
 

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