Oil change Needed

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
See posts with no answers
manyboats said:
Comodave,
Remember though this is the same guy that recomends MMO.

I sure do agree w him on the straight wt oil. Multi-vis provides no advantage in a boat.
Click to expand...

Depends on the engine. Most large high HP engines seem to recommend 15-40w.
 
Bill,
15-40w is not too bad but the 0-40w stuff has lots of viscosity improvers and they do nothing to lubricate your engine. But boat engines do not need multi vis. None at all is needed so why use it?

As for engines that "recoment it" I think they probably "list" it along w straight wt oil but don't specifically recomend the multi-vis oil. And if you went into their shop they probably would say use straight wt oil or use multi-vis if you must. I'm not sure though .. the turbo may need the multi-vis.

I agree w the Lehman guy (Smith) on this one. But w a turbo 15-40w may .. just may have some benefit. I don't think the engine needs it but the turbo may. I know very little about turbos.
 
Last edited:
I could not leave my boat(s) in winter storage with dirty oil. It's just wrong. But I also use Mobil 1 synthetic so I am a little wacky
 
Wxx3 said:
Thanks all.

THis was my first idea. But then thought the risks outweighed the gains.

Since most here are telling me to leave it until March, that seems like a plan.

In the past, with 30wt oil, as Marin mentioned, it hardly comes out and I think it will burn up the oil pump before I got 14 qts out.

now there is 15w 40. I don't think it will flow much easier cold, 45F,.

Yes, the whole acid buildup is exactly what I do fear. As well as the added moisture that can now deposit itself on metal cold metal parts for the winter.

I will sleep better knowing it's not a slam dunk answer in any case.

Pulling the impeller does seem easy and there should be no other parts affected by no water flow.
Click to expand...

15W-40 oil won't flow easier? Of course it will. The very reason for multi-grade oil is for cold-starting enhancement.
 
manyboats said:
Bill,
15-40w is not too bad but the 0-40w stuff has lots of viscosity improvers and they do nothing to lubricate your engine. But boat engines do not need multi vis. None at all is needed so why use it?

As for engines that "recoment it" I think they probably "list" it along w straight wt oil but don't specifically recomend the multi-vis oil. And if you went into their shop they probably would say use straight wt oil or use multi-vis if you must. I'm not sure though .. the turbo may need the multi-vis.

I agree w the Lehman guy (Smith) on this one. But w a turbo 15-40w may .. just may have some benefit. I don't think the engine needs it but the turbo may. I know very little about turbos.
Click to expand...


I think you'll find CAT and other high HP turbo engine manufacturers do recommend multi weight oils over single weight oils in many cases these days.

https://caterpillar.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/C10513033

From MTU: "In engines in Series 4000 T94,T94L, only engine oils of oil category 3 or 3.1 of SAE grades 5W-40 or 10W-40 must be used!
In engines in Series 4000 R64, R74 and R84, only engine oils of oil category 3.1 of SAE grades 5W-40 or 10W-40 must be used!
The maximum oil service life is 1000 operating hours with observance of the analyti‐ cal limit values for used oils!"

Note they allow 1000 hour oil service life with proper oil analysis.
 
Last edited:
catalinajack,
But your boat never experiences cold starts as we keep them 40 degrees or more in the boat.
And 30wt wlii flow fine down to at least 15F
 
So if you replace oil sitting in a pan, with other oil sitting in a pan, what good does it do for your engine?

In less you run the engine to get the oil into all the journals and passages the oil sitting in your oil pan right now will be the same oil in almost every part of your engine .

So, it will do no good at all to change your oil except to make you feel better and sleep better.
 
Marin said:
I have never heard any credible recommendation to change the oil prior to a winter (or any) layup and then change it again in the spring. That to me makes no sense. The clean oil is just sitting there being clean all winter so why change it out prior to using the engine in the spring?
Click to expand...

I always change the oil in the fall, but not again in the spring. Don't understand why one should. Our last boat had an undetermined amount of hours on it's engines when we bought it, but the engines were about 15 years old then. Put about 2,220 hours on it while we owned it. Still ran sweet when we sold her.
 
AKDoug said:
Take a garden hose, pop the top off the raw water strainer, run your fresh water into the raw water strainer and just run the engine for a few minutes to circulate the oil. I don't think I would run it long enough to get the engine up to temperature, just long enough to circulate the oil through a few cycles and pick up some of the"solids". Then pump it out as normal and change the filter. I always run it for a few after the oil change to get fresh oil into my system as well.

That's how I winterize too, pop the top off the strainer and just pour my anti-freeze in the top of the strainer with the through hull valve shut off. Let the raw water exhaust normally and you're good to go.

That way you won't be feeling guilty all winter...
Click to expand...

What he said.
 
Comodave said:
I just took Bob Smith's Lehman 2 day seminar last month. ... As to changing the oil in the fall, Bob recommended not changing it in the fall, but rather changing the oil in the spring. He said he thought the acid issue was not really an issue.
Click to expand...

Comodave...
Did he provide any rationale for the spring change vs fall??
 
OK
Thanks one and all.
i must say, in spite of a variety of opinions, I don't think any are bad.
I'd be fine if I did all or none.

I do feel much better about the "acid" issue and will simply not do anything this December.

I will change the oil once in the water in March. Normally, I would change the oil at the end of the cruise season as i see no point in leaving dirty oil in there if i am going to change it in the spring.

But next year i am not planning on having a long winter lay up.

I started using 15w-40 in Maine since it was the only large quantity oil available at Walmart. If it's good enough for the fishers, it's good enough for me.

Northern Europe is pretty much the same, maybe colder in the summer.

15w oil and 30wt oil pretty much flow the same at 50°.

The real issue about multi weight oil is that most wear happens at engine start, so the initial "cold" viscosity is far more important than the "hot" viscosity.

In 1969 the oil recommendations for my little BMW 1600 are exactly the same as for the Ford Lehman. I even think they used the same horizontal temperature bar graph.

And while the problems with viscosity extenders 40 years ago were an issue, there is not one high performance engine that calls for single weight oils nowadays.

But having said that, i simply do not think it matters. Just as i spend an extra dollar to buy the oil from Ireland and not Poland, but I do that as a matter of diplomacy and nothing else.

I think I will just defrost the fridge and be done.:dance::dance:

Thanks All and yes Capt Bill, I have already requested the oil test kit from Blackstone. Thanks.
 
Xsbank said:
Guilt is a powerful motivator! The acid build-up thingy is overblown hype. Does anybody have any actual, documented proof of engine damage caused by acids? Damage happens to bearings when the oil film breaks down and the surfaces touch. Crank your engine in the spring with the fuel shut-off solenoid pulled until oil pressure then start it. Then once it's nice and warm, change the oil.

The rest is marketing. Only a tiny percentage if us will ever wear out our engines...

Have a nice winter!
Click to expand...

Now that, right there, makes the most sense to me. You Americans (not being racist - there is a difference) - tend to worry over stuff you don't need to worry over. There is enough to worry about without inventing stuff. Just my opinion of course, but I've been on this forum a long time, and that's my impression.

For mine, (Rugby League saying), I'm a laid back Kiwaussie. I here and now admit, I have left the oil in my L120 for two years, because we have not done that many hours, and it still looks like new on the dipstick. Oh, and I use multigrade Castrol Magnatec diesel. Works well for me. So sleep well Richard, and save your concerns for the crossing back again. Cheers,
 
Last edited:
"The real issue about multi weight oil is that most wear happens at engine start, so the initial "cold" viscosity is far more important than the "hot" viscosity."

A stopped engine has no oil pressure , no lubrication except a tiny bit that has not drained off.

Every oil pump on our sized engines is a geared unit that will deliver 50 wt as easily and as fast as 5W wt on startup. .

The reason for multi viscosity oil is thin is takes less HP (fuel) to scrape oil off the cylinder walls , so the MPG is better.

The thin oil also helps cold cranking speeds , and a faster cranking engine should start faster.

For engines in modest climates or with a pre heater the single weight oil has more oil and less viscosity improver , and its OIL that does the lubrication.

In days of yore the concept was to use the thinnest oil you could afford to pay for.

EG if 500 miles a quart on 20wt was too dear , switch to 30wt and you might see 750.

With todays automated engine Mfg , this is no longer needed,

although with 30- 40 year old engines???
 
manyboats said:
catalinajack,
But your boat never experiences cold starts as we keep them 40 degrees or more in the boat.
And 30wt wlii flow fine down to at least 15F
Click to expand...

Ninety per cent of engine wear occurs at start-up. Multi-grade oils have a lower viscosity at lower temps such that the oil reaches its intended targets more quickly than a straight grade oil. Perhaps you have had personal experience trying to change cold oil using a vacuum method and found that it takes forever compared to when the oil is hot. That should tell you all you need to know about oil viscosity at different temps. As far as Bob Smith's recommendations, well, Bob Smith is not a petrolum engineer. If you accept his premise, and others', that the Ford Lehman was designed for 30 grade oil, why, oh why, would one use 40 grade in warmer climes? I know, because it doesn't "thin out" as much. And that's just the point. It doesn't, which means at operating temperarure a 40 grade oil has a higher viscosity that the engine was designed to use.

What do I use in my FL 120's? Okay, here we go, AMSOIL 10W/30-30W synthetic heavy duty diesel oil. I know, I'm wasting my money. I think not because the oil change interval is 600 hours. And I test the oil as I go along. And change the filters along the way. Do the math, one oil change or four, assuming 150 hours using dino oil. The other big deal with synthetics is, that because of the molecular structure, the oil adheres to engine parts and leaves a film of lubricant that is highly beneficial for cold start-ups. Dino oil drains down and leaves the moving parts dry! Remember the 90% wear issue axiom? And not to mention not having to do oil changes nearly as often.

I'll close with an anecodote, my personal experience with my Chevy Duramax diesel. Just yesterday I received the results of an oil analysis. The truck has 252,000 miles/6100 hours on the clock. Except for break-in, this truck has only seen AMSOIL 15W/40 oil, the recommended grade. I sent this sample out with 138 hours use. The report came back with neglible metals in the oil in every single category. Does that mean I could not have gotten the same results using dino oil and frequent oil changes? I don't know and don't care to find out. This truck does use by-pass filtration. I have gone as long as 950 hours without changing the oil. That time the oil analysis came back "continue to use" but I changed the oil "on general principles".

Okay now, let's talk anchors. I have two: a Fortress FX55 and a Manson Supreme 80 that I bought from twistedtree. Which is better? Please, don't answer. Let's not drift.
 
catalinajack said:
Ninety per cent of engine wear occurs at start-up. Multi-grade oils have a lower viscosity at lower temps such that the oil reaches its intended targets more quickly than a straight grade oil. The other big deal with synthetics is, that because of the molecular structure, the oil adheres to engine parts and leaves a film of lubricant that is highly beneficial for cold start-ups. Dino oil drains down and leaves the moving parts dry! Remember the 90% wear issue axiom? And not to mention not having to do oil changes nearly as often.
Click to expand...

Preeeecisely...and why I use Castrol Magnatec Diesel 15w-40 in my old 1974 vintage FL120. Times change, technology with it. Leave dino oil for the dinosaurs I say. I like that cold start up protective coating. And it does work. The Russians perfected the positively charged molecular idea so their tanks could still travel back to base after they had had the bottom of their sumps or gear boxes ripped out by the Mujahideen mines, during their Afghan war.
 
Great answers.
Multi weight is better for turbo setups. Turbos spin 20-30k rpm and need the lubrication of "clean" oil. If no turbo, naturally aspirated, 30 w oil is fine.

Ford Lehman/saber diesels have strong lower ends you will have a hard time wearing out. The top end- the cam will go before the lower end due to what others pointed out, most wear is at start up due to being dry. There are pre lube kits avoiding dry starts. Not needed on these derated engines. The cam is the part that wears out with sitting.

Ideal conditions would be start the engine and operate to normal operating temperature. This should be done every two weeks or sooner which keeps the oil film present on metal parts and burns off the water moisture that accumulates in the crankcase. Water builds up in two ways. 1) water is a product of combustion and some makes it into the crank case. 2) As the daily ambient temperature rises at day and falls at night it creates condensation in the crankcase. Some will get into the oil with gravity. Over time it builds up and can damage if not operated to above 160-170 degrees to evaporate the water build up. There are many contraptions to arrest this water build up, or avoid damage from it, such as crankcase air dryers, oil fogging, and sealing the intake and exhaust for winter layup. Boats, heavy equipment and airplanes, among other applications all deal with this same issue of shortening the engine life. Non use and resulting water and time reduction of oil film on metals for startup is more damaging than acids in the lightly used oil of a pleasure boat.

Summary: Best is to operate the engine to above 170 degrees every two weeks. These engines will run over 20k hours if continuous duty used at 1800 rpm or less proven with commercial water pumps and generator applications that run regularly. Hard to accomplish it with a pleasure boat. Great engines. Post #24 is spot on.
 
Lehmans are in a unique category in that the oil is sea water cooled. The oil temp runs WAY cooler than the desired 100C. Add to that most trawlers run at light load and that keeps oil cool also. With cool oil, moisture from combustion can build up and not cook off.

I have personally seen engines damaged from moisture buildup in oil. Corrosion on valve gear. Bearings pitted from corrosion. Oil samples showed no Na, so neither sea water nor coolant entering.

If I owned a FL or other engine with sea water oil cooling, I would change the oil before layup.

In the yard if a garden hose is available, just put the hose in the strainer and run engine til warm. Change the oil and run it a few minutes longer. Then run some antifreeze through the strainer to get some freeze protection.

Richard- If you are not going to change the oil, look in the oil fill hole in the rocker cover and note the condition of the metal rockers/shafts/springs: If shiny grey metal with a coating of dark oil, your engine does not have a moisture problem in the oil. If there is any hue of rust color, engine has moisture in the lube, or has in the past, and I would definitely change it.
 
Not sure if this has any value....but my engine runs as cool as I am comfy with...say in the 160s at low RPMs and new one 180 at my faster cruise setting.

My engine was tossed together from miscellaneous parts by the PO and his mechanic. It had oversized coolers on it till I just replaced them.

I have been on oil analysis for 3 years and every change between 100 to 200 hours has be exemplary according to Blackstone.

If water is present...it isn't showing up on analysis and I never hardly see 180. Never close to the 212F/100C Ski recommends/reports as necessary.

I wonder if my oil is reaching temps that my guages and IR guarantee showing because I just usually shoot the coolant. I have shot other areas for hots spots, I just don't remember if they are above 180.
 
Last edited:
Not all engines that run cool oil get moisture in the oil. Actually very few do. And I don't understand why. Probably the sum of many highly variable parameters. A head scratcher for me.
 
Ski in NC said:
Not all engines that run cool oil get moisture in the oil. Actually very few do. And I don't understand why. Probably the sum of many highly variable parameters. A head scratcher for me.
Click to expand...
I don't know either...hoping the new smaller, correct sized coolers get me back closer to the 180 range all the time....whether it really matters or not.

But there are head scratchers in this business all the time. Sometimes I wonder if the more you know the hard it gets...more possibilities of the improbable happening..:D
 
The best check for this issue is to look at your valve gear. Any rust hue, she's been damp. Shiny grey oily metal, all's good.
 
In this part of Maine pretty much all the yards use Shell Rotella T 15W40. You can also buy Chevron Delo 400 15W40 and Texaco Ursa 15W40. I know a few people who buy Walmart branded 15W40 CH grade oil.

My 2011 vintage Volvo-Penta D2-40 diesel calls for 15W40 oil.
 
Last edited:
On my old Catalina42 I used to pull the (mechanical) fuel shutoff and turn the engine over for 5 or so seconds to build up the oil pressure before I gave it fuel......

With electric fuel shutoffs on the ignition key that would require some modification.

Does/Has anyone done this in the trawler community or is there no reason?
 
oscar said:
On my old Catalina42 I used to pull the (mechanical) fuel shutoff and turn the engine over for 5 or so seconds to build up the oil pressure before I gave it fuel......

With electric fuel shutoffs on the ignition key that would require some modification.

Does/Has anyone done this in the trawler community or is there no reason?
Click to expand...


With engines that had sat while unused, Bob Smith recommended holding down the stop button while starting for 10 seconds, stopping and waiting a minute, doing that again, waiting a minute and then starting the engine normally. He said that process was to oil the engine.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
 
JDCAVE said:
With engines that had sat while unused, Bob Smith recommended holding down the stop button while starting for 10 seconds, stopping and waiting a minute, doing that again, waiting a minute and then starting the engine normally. He said that process was to oil the engine.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
Click to expand...

If you're really worried about dry starts you should just add a pre-oiler and do it right.
 
Cool, same idea, IF you have a stop button. Those engines that switch off with the key would need modifying.
 
Capt.Bill11 said:
If you're really worried about dry starts you should just add a pre-oiler and do it right.
Click to expand...


What's involved with that install?


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

PhilPB
Perkins T6.354 Oil Change Question
Replies
21
Views
1K
High Wire
High Wire
F
oil pan replacement concerns
Replies
19
Views
1K
Steve DAntonio
Steve DAntonio
Newtrawlerowner
Oil change interval
2
Replies
38
Views
3K
Csellars
C
MichaelD
Please check my thinking
Replies
12
Views
1K
MichaelD
MichaelD
V
Diesel in my fuel injection pump
2
Replies
44
Views
3K
jgtrucking
jgtrucking

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom